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Lyons and Holgorsen

DH has been OVERPAID for much of his WVU career. The fact that he MAY be underpaid right now is just a natural process considering his rather tepid record. Average 6th place and that is what you get....salary stagnation.

In 2013 DH had a national salary ranking in the Top 25.....$2,630,000, ranking 6th place in the B12
 
TIREPUNK said:
DH has been OVERPAID for much of his WVU career. The fact that he MAY be underpaid right now is just a natural process considering his rather tepid record. Average 6th place and that is what you get....salary stagnation.

In 2013 DH had a national salary ranking in the Top 25.....$2,630,000, ranking 6th place in the B12
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He hasn't been overpaid either. For his position, it's a fair salary. Top 25 seems about right for WVU's place in the college football food chain. His contract was negotiated directly after he won the conference and the Orange Bowl. His yearly salary is totally fair. The issue is the guaranteed money.

No matter who the coach is, and how well the team performs, the head coach at WVU is going to be making good money.
 
GoWVU said:
You're giving him too much credit. Holgorsen finished 4-5 last season in the conference, for an overall Big 12 record of just 15-21.

"He's underpaid compared to other Big 12 coaches" and "he's delivering value on the contract compared to his relative salary" has to be my favorite new idiotic argument made by the Dana fluffer boys. I didn't know we were playing football to win some hypothetical "best bang for the buck" column written on an economics blog somewhere. Silly me, I thought the object of playing football--as well as our stated goal at WVU--was to win actual championships on the field.

However, if relative economic value is the new messiah then we might as well go all the way with it. By that rationale, we ought to fire Holgorsen and lowball a new guy so that he's the worst-paid coach in the conference. Every season we finish 10th, the coach delivers exactly what we paid for and every season we finish above 10th, he delivered value over the contract. It's genius, we can't lose!
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He's making what college football coaches make. His contract was negotiated after winning the conference and a record setting Orange Bowl victory. So his salary seems pretty reasonable.

His next contract, either at WVU or elsewhere will display his current market value.

If he's retained, then he should receive more compensation. If they don't feel he's worth additional compensation, why retain him?

This isn't like calling in an hour employee and saying, "Sorry, no money for raises this year, now beat it", or "We could only bump you up a $.25/per hour, maybe next quarter we can get you a full dollar". Dana has his attorneys and agent working on his behalf and as evidence of Dana's current contract, they obviously aren't fools.

If WVU feels they can no longer pay for Dana, they should cut bait and move on.
 
I remember when they finalized Dana's contract. I didn't hear too many folks having a problem with it then.
 
ThePunish-EER said:
you can't have it both ways. Lol. First, you guys say he isn't earning his 2.9 million per year. Then you say performance results aren't tied to salary. And only after I debunked the misinformed theory he was overpaid. My point is/was, Dana's teams are performing above his salary. He is the 8th highest paid in a 10 team Big 12. The only way he would be considered overpaid is if he averaged 9-10th place finishes. Once again, if you want better results, then you pay for it. Spend more money and find someone better. It's that simple. Until then, be thankful you have a bargain in Dana.
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I said his salary was about right. It is still based upon his initial contract. That was for a novice Head Coach with only position coach and offensive coordinator on his resume. They are a dime a dozen metaphorically. In five years he has compiled a conference record of 17 - 22 as a head coach, called many absolute bonehead plays and lost several games he should have won.

Last season he brought his win - loss record up to average but absolutely cost a win against a way overmatched KSU by changing the WVU game strategy at halftime from what was working to what had no chance. He should have had 10 wins, a major bowl victory, a raise and contract extension. But he and his erratic QB with head scratching judgment blew it. You debunked nothing. He'll get a raise when he earns it.
 
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michaelwalkerbr said:
I said his salary was about right. It is still based upon his initial contract. That was for a novice Head Coach with only position coach and offensive coordinator on his resume. They are a dime a dozen metaphorically. In five years he has compiled a conference record of 17 - 22 as a head coach, called many absolute bonehead plays and lost several games he should have won.

Last season he brought his win - loss record up to average but absolutely cost a win against a way overmatched KSU by changing the WVU game strategy at halftime from what was working to what had no chance. He should have had 10 wins, a major bowl victory, a raise and contract extension. But he and his erratic QB with head scratching judgment blew it. You debunked nothing. He'll get a raise when he earns it.
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If I recall correctly, his first season @ WVU he worked off a term sheet. He didn't sign his contract until after he was the HC for a full season. So he was still a novice, but his resume at that point did include one full year as head coach at a major university program that resulted in a conference title and BCS Bowl win.
 
You know that is really stretching for something. It was the same contract and a different conference with another coach's team! WHat has he done in five years as a head coach that I haven't covered? Are you his agent? LOL!
 
His best season was season number one capped by an Orange Bowl win...all with some other head coach's recruits and system. He gets rewarded with an extension by bone headed OL and since then so so results...and that is giving him more credit than he has earned. He is lucky that he had such a sweet heart deal or we wouldn't be discussing his pay level within the Big 12 HC fraternity...he would be a middle of the pack salaried OC or QB coach somewhere else. No defense of him makes any sense.
 
michaelwalkerbr said:
I said his salary was about right. It is still based upon his initial contract. That was for a novice Head Coach with only position coach and offensive coordinator on his resume. They are a dime a dozen metaphorically. In five years he has compiled a conference record of 17 - 22 as a head coach, called many absolute bonehead plays and lost several games he should have won.

Last season he brought his win - loss record up to average but absolutely cost a win against a way overmatched KSU by changing the WVU game strategy at halftime from what was working to what had no chance. He should have had 10 wins, a major bowl victory, a raise and contract extension. But he and his erratic QB with head scratching judgment blew it. You debunked nothing. He'll get a raise when he earns it.
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Funny, when a play works it's because the players executed, but when it doesn't work it's a bonehead play call.

Some of you guys think that wvu deserves to win 10 games every year, well just because. The other teams in this league are trying to win also.
 
michaelwalkerbr said:
You know that is really stretching for something. It was the same contract and a different conference with another coach's team! WHat has he done in five years as a head coach that I haven't covered? Are you his agent? LOL!
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I'm not stretching anything. It wasn't the same contract. He didn't have a contract. Unless I'm mistaken Dana's current contract is his first at WVU. Under his original term sheet, I assume he was making less money and the contract brought his salary up to what it is now. If I'm wrong, correct me. This is just from memory so I could be wrong.

And it doesn't matter what he's done for the last five years. His contract is based on what his market value was when the agreement was finalized and it's guaranteed.
 
ThePunish-EER said:
its called supply in demand. A basic principle of capitalism. You are only worth what the market says you are. College football is a multi billion dollar industry. It only makes sense the coaches make millions as well. As I stated, it's not 1980 anymore.
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since you want to lecture on supply and demand where is all the demand for DH services? I don't see the blue bloods kicking down the door trying to hire him away and your right your worth what the market says your worth and that's why he hasn't gotten the extension with the golden parachute that you seek
 
Darth_VadEER said:
I'm not stretching anything. It wasn't the same contract. He didn't have a contract. Unless I'm mistaken Dana's current contract is his first at WVU. Under his original term sheet, I assume he was making less money and the contract brought his salary up to what it is now. If I'm wrong, correct me. This is just from memory so I could be wrong.

And it doesn't matter what he's done for the last five years. His contract is based on what his market value was when the agreement was finalized and it's guaranteed.
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I think we actually agree on this, but our terminology is different.
 
GetYaNumbersUp said:
Funny, when a play works it's because the players executed, but when it doesn't work it's a bonehead play call.

Some of you guys think that wvu deserves to win 10 games every year, well just because. The other teams in this league are trying to win also.
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I understand your point, but I'm not talking about any one play. I'm talking about two additional games that could and should have been won except for a head coach's actions for at least a half. The coach even put the blame on himself in his post game presser. Coach Holgorsen has always manned up to his misjudgments and he is improving.

The Oklahoma State game was easily won without overtime if Howard hadn't given away 17 points in turnovers. The KSU game? I don't even want to talk about it. The second half game plan gave that game away. Running an injured QB 13 times for negative yardage is inexcusable when the running backs are both averaging over 5 YPC. That was a learning experience for a young head coach outsmarted by his opponent.

WVU does not deserve to win anything except an opportunity, great facilities and great coaching. Let the wins fall where they may without giving away games with poor strategy or play calling.
 
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michaelwalkerbr said:
I understand your point, but I'm not talking about any one play. I'm talking about two additional games that could and should have been won except for a head coach's actions for at least a half. The coach even put the blame on himself in his post game presser. Coach Holgorsen has always manned up to his misjudgments and he is improving.

The Oklahoma State game was easily won without overtime if Howard hadn't given away 17 points in turnovers. The KSU game? I don't even want to talk about it. The second half game plan gave that game away. Running an injured QB 13 times for negative yardage is inexcusable when the running backs are both averaging over 5 YPC. That was a learning experience for a young head coach outsmarted by his opponent.

WVU does not deserve to win anything except an opportunity, great facilities and great coaching. Let the wins fall where they may without giving away games with poor strategy or play calling.
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the next time he acts like Foster Brooks is his last time..short leashed .yup tanked
 
Rootmaster said:
His best season was season number one capped by an Orange Bowl win...all with some other head coach's recruits and system. He gets rewarded with an extension by bone headed OL and since then so so results...and that is giving him more credit than he has earned. He is lucky that he had such a sweet heart deal or we wouldn't be discussing his pay level within the Big 12 HC fraternity...he would be a middle of the pack salaried OC or QB coach somewhere else. No defense of him makes any sense.
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Not the same system. There was nothing left of Mullen's offense once Dana showed up.
 
ColoradoMountaineer said:
since you want to lecture on supply and demand where is all the demand for DH services? I don't see the blue bloods kicking down the door trying to hire him away and your right your worth what the market says your worth and that's why he hasn't gotten the extension with the golden parachute that you seek
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and how do you know they haven't? It's possible he turned them down. Neither one of us knows either way. However, he was mentioned in Miami rumors. Just because our clueless leadership failed him with a deserved extension doesn't mean nobody else would want him either. Remember, this is the same clueless fanbase that ran bobby Bowden off. Lol
 
I believe Dana was given serious consideration for the Arkansas position when Petrino was fired.
 
BobbyBoucheer said:
Hey Mike,

Who should WVU target that would take the job?
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Henry Winkler? LOL! Coach hasn't been fired, yet. The light may have come on sometime during the ASU bowl game. I like the hires he made for assistants including the OC. Wickline will be up in the booth and has enough gonads to ask Holgs, "What in the hell are you thinking?" if Holgs reverts back to 'We are going to make this work!' in his offensive schemes when they are failing.

It wouldn't hurt to occasionally call a time out and ask Howard, Orlosky and Shell what will work against the defense they are seeing. If all three agree on a play, try it! That may sound like abdicating responsibility, but there is some good advice to be had from the trenches when things get tough. If the play they suggest doesn't work, he can always send them a signal that means, "That's why I'm the coach!" A single digit would probably suffice!
 
michaelwalkerbr said:
Henry Winkler? LOL! Coach hasn't been fired, yet. The light may have come on sometime during the ASU bowl game. I like the hires he made for assistants including the OC. Wickline will be up in the booth and has enough gonads to ask Holgs, "What in the hell are you thinking?" if Holgs reverts back to 'We are going to make this work!' in his offensive schemes when they are failing.

It wouldn't hurt to occasionally call a time out and ask Howard, Orlosky and Shell what will work against the defense they are seeing. If all three agree on a play, try it! That may sound like abdicating responsibility, but there is some good advice to be had from the trenches when things get tough. If the play they suggest doesn't work, he can always send them a signal that means, "That's why I'm the coach!" A single digit would probably suffice!
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So, you want Howard, She'll, and Orlosky to have a powwow and come to a decision on a play to suggest to Dana. Ok.

And you totally ignored my question. But I expect e you too.
 
BobbyBoucheer said:
So, you want Howard, She'll, and Orlosky to have a powwow and come to a decision on a play to suggest to Dana. Ok.

And you totally ignored my question. But I expect e you too.
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Don't take me quite so literally when I use Henry Winkler in my answer. I would actually expect that sometime in the third quarter of a tight contest while the defense is on the field, ANY offensive coordinator would ask his key players, "From your perspective, what is working against these guys?" and truly take that into consideration. The players know when they are kicking ass and when they are getting it kicked.

As far as a possible replacement for Coach Holgorsen, I have no idea. Hopefully Lyons has a short list at the ready just in case. Does that answer your question? I'm actually hoping this is the year things really click and we don't have to debate who will be the next coach. Do you really think I would duck an honest and relevant question?
 
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ThePunish-EER said:
and how do you know they haven't? It's possible he turned them down. Neither one of us knows either way. However, he was mentioned in Miami rumors. Just because our clueless leadership failed him with a deserved extension doesn't mean nobody else would want him either. Remember, this is the same clueless fanbase that ran bobby Bowden off. Lol
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Dana is not in high demand as a HC maybe as an oc and In terms of supply and demand he was offered what his market value dictated. He was never a serious candidate for the Miami job. FSU was not big time when Bowden went there. Jimbo fisher has as many undefeated seasons at FSU that Bowden has had and he took over FSU after a 7-6 season
 
michaelwalkerbr said:
Don't take me quite so literally when I use Henry Winkler in my answer. I would actually expect that sometime in the third quarter of a tight contest while the defense is on the field, ANY offensive coordinator would ask his key players, "From your perspective, what is working against these guys?" and truly take that into consideration. The players know when they are kicking ass and when they are getting it kicked.

As far as a possible replacement for Coach Holgorsen, I have no idea. Hopefully Lyons has a short list at the ready just in case. Does that answer your question? I'm actually hoping this is the year things really click and we don't have to debate who will be the next coach. Do you really think I would duck an honest and relevant question?
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See, I agree with your earlier assessment of Dana. He Has had some really bonehead decisions in certain games especially with clock management. The team last year defeintely lost 2 games I think they should have won in KSU and OSU. However, I also, begrudgingly, admit that I can see a little improvement and am hopeful for a successful year.

I think the likelyhood of Dana coaching beyond next year is low whether he leaves on his own choosing or Gee's.

With that said, I see no one out there that we should or could target that does anything for WVU above making a change for a changes sake.
 
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Waterboy, we are on the same page. 2016 seems to be the year of Coach Holgorsen's final exam as the WVU head coach. I wonder if there is a way to find out who, if anyone, that A D Lyons has been back and forth with that could be a possible replacement. With a $4 million surplus in 2015's $91 million athletic budget and 2016 to be the first year of 100% payout from the Big 12, money is not really an issue. Winning is.
 
ColoradoMountaineer said:
Dana is not in high demand as a HC maybe as an oc and In terms of supply and demand he was offered what his market value dictated. He was never a serious candidate for the Miami job. FSU was not big time when Bowden went there. Jimbo fisher has as many undefeated seasons at FSU that Bowden has had and he took over FSU after a 7-6 season
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please provide direct proof he is not in demand as a HC. Provide it. Provide proof he wasn't a serious candidate for Miami. You know neither he was,is, or is not.

And I guess you are now implying Bowden was overrated? Lmao.
 
ThePunish-EER said:
please provide direct proof he is not in demand as a HC. Provide it. Provide proof he wasn't a serious candidate for Miami. You know neither he was,is, or is not.

And I guess you are now implying Bowden was overrated? Lmao.
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Bowden turned into one of the all time best. Coach Holgorsen came to WVU with no head coaching experience but an excellent resume' as an offensive coordinator.

His record as a head coach including one year in the Big East is as follows:

Record 36-28 overall
17-22 Big 12 Conference games

Bowl record 2-2

His complete head coaching history can be found here

Decide for yourself. To me, if he gets fired after a poor season in 2016 his resume' takes a big hit. If he gets double digit wins and a major bowl victory it gets a significant boost and so does his contract.
 
michaelwalkerbr said:
Record 36-28 overall
17-22 Big 12 Conference games

Bowl record 2-2

His complete head coaching history can be found here
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I'm not sure why you keep repeating the wrong Big 12 conference record for Holgorsen on this thread, because the overall and bowl records you provided are correct.

He is 15-21 in Big 12 conference games, not 17-22.
 
michaelwalkerbr said:
Waterboy, we are on the same page. 2016 seems to be the year of Coach Holgorsen's final exam as the WVU head coach. I wonder if there is a way to find out who, if anyone, that A D Lyons has been back and forth with that could be a possible replacement. With a $4 million surplus in 2015's $91 million athletic budget and 2016 to be the first year of 100% payout from the Big 12, money is not really an issue. Winning is.
Click to expand...

He'll still have a large chunk remaining on his contract. Probably over $4 million.
 
GoWVU said:
I'm not sure why you keep repeating the wrong Big 12 conference record for Holgorsen on this thread, because the overall and bowl records you provided are correct.

He is 15-21 in Big 12 conference games, not 17-22.
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Nothing nefarious, I assure you. I couldn't find the conference numbers readily, so I counted them season to season from schedules supplied by ESPN. Obviously I made an error but it is statistically insignificant. Thank you for the correction.
 
GoWVU said:
I'm not sure why you keep repeating the wrong Big 12 conference record for Holgorsen on this thread, because the overall and bowl records you provided are correct.

He is 15-21 in Big 12 conference games, not 17-22.
Click to expand...
remove the 4-8 season and it's not as bad. That's more accurate.
 
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