to MountaineerWV re: Dr. King
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There is no Religion boomer that has slaughtered more people or caused more ill to humanity and spilled more blood than Socialist Governments and the Socialist leaders of them.
No thanks.
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Again Boomer I disagree with your premise. "A person who advocates for Socialist economic solutions absent any other means is a Socialist". A Person or even a Nation(like the one's I linked you to) that considers Socialist solutions to economic issues but ultimately realizes their historical failure and inadequacy is simply smart.
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Pol Pot, Joseph Stalin, Mao Tse Tung, Idi Amin. All Socialists. Total murdered under their watches?
In his summary of the estimates in "the Black Book of Communism", Martin Malia suggested a death toll of between 85 and 100 million people.[1]
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mass_killings_under_Communist_regimes
My "Religion" boom...saved mankind from Sin. I've never told you what Religion I am anyway...all I've ever told you is I'm a believer in the shed Blood of Christ for remission of Sin. What 'Religion' is that boom?
That's called Faith boomer. And many Religious people have it no matter what they call themselves.
Brushy FYI (I know you know all of this but keep it for future reference)
http://www.wnd.com/2012/08/socialisms-death-count/
Why do you always get to decide who's "smart enough" or who's "an idiot" or who "doesn't get" your line of reasoning?
Why are you such a pontifical epexegete?
No, but that's exactly what Socialist countries and Socialists are boom! Dr. King was not any of that nor did he advocate any of that as the ultimate solution for America's economic problems. Socialists do.
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Dr. King couldn't "believe" in Socialism because it's not a Religion. His "belief" was in God's Holy Word and Social Justice. Socialism....or the various aspects of it he considered to correct evil and injustice was simply a vehicle towards that which he saw useful since Capitalism in his mind was promoting much of the injustice he encountered. To equate that strategy he considered to combat that Godly immorality to his "belief" system is exactly as I said in the thread, to misunderstand the genesis of his Life's calling and his actual core beliefs.
Your intransigence on this issue tells me more about your own belief system than Dr. King's. He had no such ambiguities in terms of what he believed.
(laughing) Dr. King's Religious affiliation and passion for Social Justice is what animated him...it's the essence of his work. I'm an idiot?
Now see....I have answered more than I should have or wanted to on that subject with you.....and you give me no credit because I don’t subscribe to an organized doctrine ? Just absolutely petty
No no not at all Man. I just don't understand and your answer changes everytime you attempt to explain it. It hasn't been the same thing twice and that's what I was warning Brushy to look out for if you even care to answer him.
Not always....just you. And racists like bushy beaver....whom, if he has any respect for your intelligence, sees you as an outlier.
And it’s because I simply said that your religion has shielded and promoted great amounts of evil in the world. I DIDNT SAY that atheism didn’t, or that socialist ideology didn’t either. I wasn’t trying to compare death tolls. I couldn’t care less how those numbers stack up. Yet that’s all you do is throw those numbers at me, like I’m waving my socialist- communist flag at a ballgame or something.
You keep bringing Christianity into every conversation. And in this one, you claim that Christianity supersedes any socialist desire (because Christians don’t place the state above the Devine), yet Christians throughout history have put plenty of other things before the Devine. Men and women have done unspeakable evils in the name of Christ. They have put themselves before the Devine. It just simply isn’t a legitimate marker to determine the source of ones action.
Now, true Christians like yourself (and even brushy, if I take him at his word) might see it differently. That your faith is the pure source from which all your decisions emanate. And if so, (and big props here - I believe that fact with you) I give you immense credit and respect in your desires bothnpolitically and socially.
However, that doesn’t mean that every Christian has the same ideological restrictions as you project onto them. MLK is a very good example of this fact. Yet when I point it out, you go into a long rant about how it’s impossible. It’s not.
I point out that socialist approaches to issues doesn’t mean that the person believing in those solutions are SOCIALIST (esp with your absolutist and extreme definition). The same as that a nation that uses socialist solutions isn’t clearly defined as a socialist state (in your very obvious opinion).
You go to Christian doctrine as the reason you assert that this isn’t true, and that atheists (like Bernie Sanders) source their desire for policy from some horrible place (because it’s not Christian in nature). And I point out that Christianity isn’t always the positive force you think it is, you start with the “communists and atheists have killed more”.
Each time I make a point, you take the discussion to a different place.
MLK had the desire to try socialist solutions to economic issues in our nation. THIS IS FACT.
Not all those that advocate for socialist solutions are far left, godless, heathen, communists. THIS IS EVIDENCED BY MLK HIMSELF.
Christianity has not always been the beacon of light and goodness for everyone in the world throughout time. NOONE CAN DENY THIS, AND COMMUNIST DEATH TOLLS DO NOT CANCEL THE FACT OUT.
To people that do not consider Christianity as the pure source you believe it to be, they can still have a good source to draw their political ideology from.
The man believes intelligence is determined by race, and there is a racial hierarchy of intelligence. Maybe that’s not seeing things in terms of racial superiority and inferiority to you either, but it is to me.
Yes you are an idiot. Because you said that BECAUSE he is Christian, he can’t believe that socialist solutions to issues are legitimate.
It doesn't matter boomer. I can't lie about something I don't even understand. Carry on.
I never said that. Now you're a liar. I said in order to understand his position on issues from a "moral" perspective, you have to understand what motivates ALL of his solutions. You can't simply limit his analysis to "Socialism" without understanding from where his beliefs about it emanate. MWV and you want to dismiss his beliefs or just leave it at Socialism and his belief in it only. That is a disservice to him and a complete misunderstanding of why he'd even consider it. He was about social justice...anyway and anywhere he could find it to redress the evil of racism. He didn't see Socialism as a perfect solution boom, he saw it as a possible better answer to correct that immorality...something that doesn't even exist in either you or MWV's lexicon.
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That’s what I thought. You’re better than that atl. Don’t lie to belittle someone. I admire your passion and faith. Men like you are good Americans, good fathers, and good members of our communities. I think you have the true faith, but sometimes you seem to be more driven by resentment or anger than your faith, sometimes driven by ego more than service to your lord.
I’m sure I’m wrong. And a db is no place to truly evaluate someone.
And for the record, I don’t think you’re an idiot. But I do think you grossly misrepresent my position in discussion.
And I think your desire to define EVERYTHING AND EVERYONE that thinks differently from you as godless, mindless, anti-democracy, anti-Constitution, anti-American, and wrong is petty and foolish.
So now you’re saying that his desire to see socialist solutions to issues was sourced from Christianity, and so therefore somehow “less socialist”?
And if you think that each time I teach MLK, I don’t represent his Christian faith as a positive driving force to his ideology and action, you’re just crazy. But mine and MWV original point had ABSOLUTELY NOTHING TO DO WITH CHRISTIANITY. Nothing. You are just simply seeking to make MLK “more conservative” and “less prone to socialist solutions to policy” by inserting Christianity and claiming that no one on “the left” is truly Christian. Which, imo, is foolish and completely unfounded.
If you didn’t say that....what did you say? That his Christian faith makes his socialist ideology not socialist?
That’s why I call you a bushy little beaver....you’re too pussy to own up to your actual thoughts.....when you do have the nerve to post them.
Moreover, MWV is Christian in faith, and your desire to belittle his ideological positions as not only wrong, but also an indicator of his lack of faith is very very petty, imo. And it isn’t very Christian in my opinion. Men of great faith, perhaps greater than your own, have been liberal in thought and left of center on social issues and economic issues.
I said his Christian beliefs animate all he examines as a possible solution to whatever immorality he views. He cannot see it through any other prism because his Christian belief system is the core of his moral philosophy which is based on Godly Justice through his Holy Word. That is the prism through which Dr. King views both the immoraility of Rascism and all possible solutions regardless of their individual remedial source and nothing sourced in the solutions overrides his primary assessment that all must fit within Almighty God's call for righteousness.
Socialists don't view their philosophical or economic system through that same moral prism so Dr. King would not consider their solutions as only a means to the sole end of domaince of the State over Human affairs. Quite the opposite.
Hence all of the hullabaloo. MLK sought socialist solutions. He had a liberal and socialist economic ideology. His Christian faith not withstanding. And not everyone that has socialist ideology seeks a dominance of the state over human affairs. Again, just foolish and petty.
You cannot speak about what is or is not "Christian" boomer when you reject the entire belief system! MWV says he's Christian but simply saying it and not practicing it are two different things. I can't judge his walk but based on what he says and his refusal to express his beliefs as most Christians do, I do not view his professions of Christianity to be genuine or believable. That is discernment and what Christ compels all Christians to be lest they be deceived.
He rarely if ever mentions his views on Christ, how he is influenced by him, what motivateds his beliefs in him or how that manifests itself in governance over his Life. The true measure of your Christian walk. You have no such questions about me because I amplify that constantly to you and others much to your derision I might add but my point is you do not misunderstand my position as it relates to Christ nor how he influences my thought process.
Can you say the same thing about MWV?
Socialists seek domainance of the State over all social affairs boom. There is no room for Theology or Christ in their attmepts to Socialize the masses. Matter of fact that is the first thing they attmept to eliminate...all references to any diety...not just Christ. How in the Hell do you put Dr. King into that category?
You seem to be selective in the posts of mine you choose to believe. I have stated on multiple occasions that there is only one 'race' and different people groups. And we all know you like your beavers before they can grow a bush.
I can very much speak as to what is Christian. We don’t live in some Christian fascist nation just yet there atl. And I know more about the doctrine than you think I do. But I don’t claim to be of even adequate understanding of your faith, but it just seems petty that you find it legitimate to judge so viciously and thoroughly. Do you ask the same (or expect the same) open assertions of faith from someone like Brushy? Or is it only Christians that support Democrats that have to PROVE their faith to you?
Maybe some people are not concerned with mixing faith and policy in every discussion. Maybe some aren’t interested in comparing or confirming their faith to someone else on a db. Maybe MWV mentions his faith and motivations often and passionately in his life outside of this forum.
Maybe thinking you have the right to judge other Christians so adamantly is not a righteous as you think it is?
I respect what you're saying but you could not be more wrong. I'm Christian. That doesn't mean everyone else who doesn't agree with me is either wrong or misguided. It means I'm ready to defend what I believe as equally as they can defend what they believe. All I know is Truth is not relative. We both can't share Truth (whatever we believe) so our obligation is to test all, measure everything, and let the Truth reveal itself as that process evolves. I don't have a problem with that but I do have a problem with those who think I have no right to advocate for what I beleive as Truth, especially when there is so much backing it up!
Truth exposes lies. Truth doesn't hide from itself. Truth reveals what isn't. Lies can't exist against Truth and liars avoid it because it easily exposes what is not true. You accuse me of so many things except what I do believe and you claim that is not Truth. I will fight you on that with every facet of my being because I know Almighty God is not a liar and his Truth cannot be a lie. Everything else must stand down to it or he himself is a liar and the Bible is fiction. Many have tried to prove it such, all have failed.
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MLK sought socialist solutions to economic issues. The labeling of who is socialist and what is socialist is just more of your foolish desire to categorize everything that’s different from you into neat little piles below your feet. It’s probably why you are struggling so much with MLK’s socialist ideological assertions. Cognitive dissonance can be problematic for those so rigid in their vision of the world around them.
All you and MWV and many on the Left do is judge (especially Christians) and claim outrage when you are similarly judged. Tell me boom, what makes a Christian "racist"? Many of you and MWV himself have claimed that about Christians who happen to believe in smaller Government. What then makes that preference "racist"? What do you Leftists judge that assessment on?
Do you have any idea how evil and nasty that is to label all people of Faith as "racists" simply they believe in allowing folks to rise to their God given capabilites instead of depending on Government to do that for them? I've heard MWV call people of Faith that, and you expect me to believe he's a Christian?
No it isnt. I have defined Socialists and what they believe as well as why they beleive it. Dr. King is nothing like any of them even if he thinks some of their philosophy was correct. (I disagree with that btw...but I understand why he thought that)
Capitalism works, and is working for Blacks. Freedom works too. Socialism doesn't work and that is not my opinion that is measured in Truth by its dismal performance throughout world history especially when compared to Freedom and Capitalism.
Are you saying that all people of faith are not racist?
Are you saying I have the same views as all “leftists”?
Are you saying that I personally think all people of faith are racists?
Geez.....little off the rails there.
Personally, I think anyone that sees a racial hierarchy are racist. I think people of faith can be good and bad. I think some people of faith are not really “of faith” at all, but pose for effect. I also think some Christians live about as bad of a life as anyone, but cherish only the idea that they will be saved from their sin in the end (no matter how bad).
I only really get frustrated with Christians (other than you of course) when they decide that their faith needs to be forced upon me and other Americans through law. I believe that type of desire is anti-American.
I believe conservatives see things differently than I do with regards to social and economic policy. The only areas I feel confident in being right, are on social issues. Mainly because I believe in America as being the nation that provides liberty to all REGARDLESS OF THEIR RELIGION, and that choice of faith is strictly an individual choice.
Once again, you see everything in crazy linear terms, and that vision is obtuse.
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Yet socialism is employed in this nation and others with success. And for the like 40th time, NEITHER ME OR MWV SAID THAT MLK WAS A SOCIALIST! And your failure to understand the premise of the discussion is paralleled to your warped vision of the world.
Keep struggling with the FACT that MLK believed in socialsm as a positive solution to problems in this nation. Maybe someday you’re desire to be better than everything not totally similar to yourself will fade.
I said you can't understand anything else about him unless you understand his Christianity first. His priority was to Christ, and righteousness. Not Socialism! Socialists are dedicated only to Socialism &.it's preeminence in human affiars with control over all means of existence. There is no homage to a "Creator" in the Socialist's construct. There is no higher authority or allegiance other than to "The State". God....and references to any Godly authority are superfluous in a Socialist's utopia. Dr. King would NEVER accept those paramaters to administer whatever Socialist remedies he thought were conducive for amelioration of institutionalized racism. Almighty God's social order was his primary interest and Socialism's place adjusting for the conditions to bring that about would always be secondary to his allegiance and devotion to God's Word and instructions for righteousness. It's what drove Dr. King's Life, and what both you and MWV so sorely misunderstand about him.
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I don't know, you all never separate out who is or who not racist among people of Faith when you sling that ugly word around. You just lump everyone in together.
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