to MountaineerWV re: Dr. King
- Thread starter atlkvb
- Start date
I don’t subscribe to any of it. You do though, and you use it as an example of how socialism and Christianity couldn’t possibly mix. I think you’re pretty much FOS all around. I don’t know the scriptures well, but what I do know seems to advocate more against the capitalist fervor you spew, and more for a communal approach to property and wealth. I was just pointing out....you know Marx very poorly, maybe you know the scriptures just as poorly. Seems like it to me.
You're right boom (I stay in God's Word asking for more Wisdom) in fact the more I learn the more I find out I do need to learn so I am guilty as charged on that my friend.(about not knowing as much as I should)
Well if that's the case then surely Almighty God calls on us to work and eat too doesn't he boom? In fact he tells us he will give us the desires of our heart if we place his will and instruction for our lives into his trust doesn't he?
So how much trust does the State under Socialism trust individuals with their own desires and Liberty? Where is the promise to fullfill your desires under Socialism absent the demands of the State on your time, labor, talent and possessions?
What do you own under Socialism? Private property? Private wealth? Private freedom to worship as you choose?
Well then why quote it? I happen to know you completely misread Christ's teaching regarding materialism but you at least have an idea. If you reject all of it how much of the Socialist model do you practice in your own Life? How much of your possessions do you surrender or volunteer to the State? Do you redistribute your income? Why not?
Do you turn over what you own to someone else who is needy so they can have what you have or worked for? Why not? Don't you believe in equality of income?
Alright boom you've convinced me. Communal living is the way to go. I'm coming to live with you and eat your food and sh*t in your toilet! Let's share your wealth shall we?
I know as much about Marx as I need to boom and what I do know I don't like or want any part of what he espouses.
No thanks.
I don’t advocate for socialism, just for socialist solutions to problems we face. As I said, sometimes they work best, sometimes the free market works best. I’m not an absolutist.
Socialists work, and believe in the power of the worker to deliver liberty to themselves through the dissolution of the state and class system. Again, learn a little more about the things you rail against.
The communist state, in its corrupt and warped existence, mostly continued the exploitation of the worker and continued the role of the bourgeoisie ruling class through the military ruling elite. Much like most of our “representatives” in our Democratic Republic have allowed corruption to prevent them from voting in line with the will of their constituents.
I have no doubt you learn about only what makes you feel good. Again, I don’t think handling cognitive dissonance is a strong suit of yours
Therefore, it is necessary to submit to the authorities, not only because of possible punishment but also as a matter of conscience.
This is also why you pay taxes, for the authorities are God’s servants, who give their full time to governing.
Give to everyone what you owe them: If you owe taxes, pay taxes; if revenue, then revenue; if respect, then respect; if honor, then honor
Neither was there any among them that lacked: for as many as were possessors of lands or houses sold them, and brought the prices of the things that were sold,
And laid them down at the apostles’ feet: and distribution was made unto every man according as he had need.
Ummmm, doesn’t sound like capitalism to me
First, you started with a "Therefore" in quoting scripture. You might as well be trying to ski down a mountain with a microwave. You have to find out what the "Therefore" is there for. Bad form.
Every person is to be in subjection to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and those which exist are established by God. Therefore whoever resists authority has opposed the ordinance of God; and they who have opposed will receive condemnation upon themselves. For good behavior, but for evil. Do you want to have no fear of authority? Do what is good and you will have praise from the same; for it is a minister of God to you for good. But if you do what is evil, be afraid; for it does not bear the sword for nothing; for it is a minister of God, an avenger who brings wrath on the one who practices evil.
Therefore it is necessary to be in subjection, not only because of wrath, but also for conscience’ sake. For because of this you also pay taxes, for rulers are servants of God, devoting themselves to this very thing. Render to all what is due them: tax to whom tax is due; custom to whom custom; fear to whom fear; honor to whom honor.
This entire section is to be taken as one, not part. This has nothing to do with socialism/capitalism, but everything to do with God's authority, and that He has placed the leadership there.
Still looking for tax and government in this quote. That is a model of tithing to the church, and the church responding to the tithe, but what would I know.
Can you quote the scripture that advocates for personal wealth and property? You obviously know more about scripture than I do, of course.
I never said it did. I'm just saying it doesn't promote socialism.
This is EXACTLY what is NOT allowed in a Socialist State! Now Boom quite frankly another example of when I said the other day you so often talk out of both sides of your mouth I loose track of what you are arguing! You quoted Christ I assume to argue he advocated Socialist theory. Fine. Then I asked you why you accept that part of his teaching and reject the more essential parts of it as far as him being Savior? Then you turned around and said you reject all of it! TarheelEer does an excellent job here quoting the exact context of the passage you chose to use to argue Jesus as a Socialist (I also said you were misquoting that passage) and you are still talking about Capitalism being evil and against God's instruction. Unreal.
I asked you to explain to me what in Socialism allows for what THE pointed out in his Scripture quote for Almighty God's Supremacy over all human affairs? You have yet to answer that straightforward, easily worded common concept...something you claim I never do.
Where is the worker's efforts rewarded by his own effort under Socialism? Isn't everything done for the common purposes as deemed necessary by the State? What measure of Freedom is afforded the worker under a Socialist system to work where he pleases, as he pleases, earning what he is capable of and being allowed to keep it and do with his earnings what he sees fit?
I have really smelly farts 'ya know? You ready for that boom?
Last edited:
Boom...please show me or point out what Socialist society or Government follows this?
Simple, straightforward, common concept. Who practices it?
Now that makes sense. I doubt the scripture promotes any specific political ideology. I also doubt that socialism is automatically excluded from a Christian mind.
Every person is to be in subjection to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and those which exist are established by God.
Sorry boomer...what I could find out about them, I don't see any parallels between their society as they're trying to organize it and Marxist Socialist structrures. It's reach at best, but they're not Socialists with Supremacy of the State, and I'm sure whoever their deity is they place above their civil government, they don't supress those desires for the good of the State.They simply don't come to mind as any pure Socialists. They do to you?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Central_Tibetan_Administration
https://joshuaproject.net/people_groups/15468/CH
https://ipfs.io/ipfs/QmXoypizjW3Wkn...6uco/wiki/Central_Tibetan_Administration.html
Although we Tibetans are no more than 140,000 in India, Nepal and Bhutan, we have adapted to new circumstances of the host nation. We keep alive a culture that to this day is under intense pressure in Tibet, and in danger of suppression, in a land our young generation have not seen. What is it that keeps us going, as guests in a poor country where we must fend for ourselves, and be the guardians of a culture that could die unless we maintain it?
http://www.centraltibetanreliefcommittee.org/ctrc/ctrc.html
Sorry boomer...what I could find out about them, I don't see any parallels between their society as they're trying to organize it and Marxist Socialist structrures. It's reach at best, but they're not Socialists with Supremacy of the State, and I'm sure whoever their deity is they place above their civil government, they don't supress those desires for the good of the State.They simply don't come to mind as any pure Socialists. They do to you?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Central_Tibetan_Administration
https://joshuaproject.net/people_groups/15468/CH
https://ipfs.io/ipfs/QmXoypizjW3Wkn...6uco/wiki/Central_Tibetan_Administration.html
Although we Tibetans are no more than 140,000 in India, Nepal and Bhutan, we have adapted to new circumstances of the host nation. We keep alive a culture that to this day is under intense pressure in Tibet, and in danger of suppression, in a land our young generation have not seen. What is it that keeps us going, as guests in a poor country where we must fend for ourselves, and be the guardians of a culture that could die unless we maintain it?
http://www.centraltibetanreliefcommittee.org/ctrc/ctrc.html
True, (about Scripture not promoting any politics) but most Socialist contries do not want it competitng with the established authority of the Government and in most Socialist countires open Religious expression is not allowed or at least is frowned upon so it's kept hidden where it is allowed.
Ironically Christ didn't promote any Religion either. At least not any particular denomination.
And what you fail to understand fundamentally is that socialism is an approach to issues, NOT AN ABSOLUTE CALL FOR A COMMUNIST STATE. Do you think that MLK was calling for an overthrow of the US government? Is someone that advocates for a strong public school system seeking an overthrow of our capitalist economy?
You continue to use circular logic whenever discussing anything about socialist solutions, or really anything. Now you’re starting with the fact that true socialist nations don’t work, and they call for the supremacy of the state over everything including ones devotion to their deity.
Now, I argue that Marxism did not seek a state that held power over its people, but rather the dissolution of the state entirely. I argue that someone that advocates for socialist solutions isn’t necessarily subscribing to a Marxist or Communist government agenda in totality. You say “point to a successful socialist nation”.
I argue that socialist solutions work in certain cases, in nations like Holland and Sweden and the UK, and these nations are examples of the successes of socialist solutions. You say, “those aren’t socialist nations”.
I say that it’s foolish to say that a Christian can’t believe in socialist ideology. You say, “Because socialism advocates for the supremacy of the state over everything including ones de voting to their deity”. Yet, I’ve already stated that 1) Marxism and socialism doesn’t call for a supreme state, 2) calling for a socialist solution to issues (as MLK did) doesn’t mean that person is advocating for a total reversal of our democratic system into a communist alternative and 3) there are nations (not socialist nations by your own admission) that implement many socialist solutions to issues they face without advocating for communist totality. (Btw: if you think these nations are rejecting socialist solutions because they fail, look at the Swedish school system).
Yet....with regard to MLK seeking socialist solutions to economic problems....you will always start and end with the same two points 1) socialism calls for the supremacy of the state and 2) there is no successful socialist state
And a round and round we go.
Last edited:
Yup you're right boom. You're not going to heaven because you don't want to (that's why you reject Christ) but given all you said here about Socialists are they going too or will they be left behind with you?
Talk to you later boom. Thanks for the exchange.
Socialism:
a political and economic theory of social organization that advocates that the means of production, distribution, and exchange should be owned or regulated by the community as a whole.
synonyms: leftism, welfarism;More
- policy or practice based on the political and economic theory of socialism.
synonyms: leftism, welfarism;More
- (in Marxist theory) a transitional social state between the overthrow of capitalism and the realization of communism.
OK then boom. So is there a Communist State that is NOT Socialist?
Is there a Socialist State that allows personal individual Liberty?
Is there a Socialist State that allows personal accumulation of and holding of private wealth and property?
Is there a Socialist State that affirms a Creator above the State in its Constitution...like we do (but of course we are NOT a Socialist State are we boom?)
What amazes me my friend is you are certainly not without options. Both historically and currently you have many nations you can examine or offer as proof to rebutt what I'm saying about Socialists and Socialism yet you struggle to answer the question or offer an example.
The countries you want to include as Socialist are not. They have more Capitalism or Capitalistic aspects to them than Socialist, yet you want them included as examples even though Socialists by and large detest Capitalism and Free markets.
If I asked you for examples of Capitalist countries that allow Freedom of Worship, private wealth accumulation and ownership of private property would you struggle as hard to find those examples as you obviously do answering that same question using Socialist countries as examples?
What does that tell you boom?
Last edited:
I do know this my friend. Dr. King accepted Christ and that certainly assures him both being Christian and having a spot with Christ in Heaven guaranteed.
Now I'd suppose if there are any Socialists who also like Doctor King placed Christ first above the State and accepted his free gift of Salvation they too would join him but I don't know any Socialists who do that.
Bernie Sanders is a Socialist but he won't be there because he rejects Christ as most Socialists and you also do boom. So that doesn't make either them or you Christian like Doctor King was.
Murderers, rapists, thieves, adulterers, just accept Christ and you'll be in Heaven!
Socialist = GO AND BURN IN HELL! I don't care if you are looking out for the poor and impoverished of the world, like what Jesus would do........
opcorn:
Socialist = GO AND BURN IN HELL! I don't care if you are looking out for the poor and impoverished of the world, like what Jesus would do........
opcorn:
Murderers, rapists, thieves, adulterers, just accept Christ and you'll be in Heaven!
Socialist = GO AND BURN IN HELL! I don't care if you are looking out for the poor and impoverished of the world, like what Jesus would do........
They would confess their Sins before Christ and accept his forgiveness before they got in MWV.
Works cannot save you nor a lack of accepting Christ with your confession of Sin and his forgiveness of it.
You cannot fill in the blank without redefining the terms. Honestly boomer my Man I don't expect any less from you because in your reality anything fits what you say it fits! All truth is relative to you so it really doesn't matter what is...only what you say IS should be!
Boomer...is it absolutely true that all Truth is relative? Is that absolute?
MWV I'm only asking you this because you said you are a believer and I accept that.
So tell me, do you believe there are many ways to Heaven or only one way as Christ said?
Is that answer absolute or relative?
No it isn't...because no Socialist ideology accepts Christ...Christians can't call themselves so unless they do.(accept Christ) To accept Socialist ideology as opposed to Christ by definition means a rejection of Christ if one is to be called a "Socialist". This is why most of them (Socialists) do in fact reject Christ.
Yes it does. It requires destruction of Capitalism and indivudualism even Faith itself as necessary to practice it. (Socialism) It is the prerequisite along the road toward Socialism's ultimate goal of Communism...similar to Christianity's ultimate goal of being one with Christ through Salvation. A Sinless Life in eternity in Heaven with Christ is the Christian's utopia. A Communist State of a community owned by no one person or no one Nation is the Socialist utopian's dream.
Yet you cannot show an example of a Socialist State which doesn't place the State supreme over Human afffairs. Using Capitalist/Socialist mixes to justify that argument is like mixing Sinners in with those Christians who have been saved by confesseing their Sins to Christ. Sinners who have not been saved do not recognize any Salvation if they haven't asked for Christ's forgiveness; similarly, Socialists who hate Capitalism can't say it's OK while their whole economic philosophy is primarily aimed at destroying it (Capitalism) and ultimately replacing it with Socialism.
Probably not...but then a person who doesn't advocate for only Socialist solutions isn't exactly a "Socialist" either. Why is a person who advocates some Socialist solutions or a Nation that uses them called "Socialist" but a nation that practices some Christianity (like we do) can't be called "Christian? I've argued Dr. King called only for some Socialist methods to practice his moraility of erasing racism. You say he didn't need that moral underpinning to use Socialism, yet that makes him just as Socialist as someone who is a Socialist and uses no morality to advocate for it?
I argued against that because I said in order to understand his (Dr. King's) call for some Socialist solutions, you must understand his Christian morality compelling him to do so. Yet a country that uses some Capitalism to make certain Socialist solutions work can't be anything but Socialist in your example to prove that Socialism works! You cite these countries that also use Capitalism as examples for Socialist countries that work.
Correct. America is an example. But then why are they used as your examples of Socialist countries? I'm trying to get you to list for me examples of Socialist countries that DO NOT use any Capitalism in order to make their Socialist models work. Why can't you list any of those?
Generally when the Socialist models are rejected it is because they have failed. That typically happens when there is no Capitalism supporting the Socialist experiments. Where certain elements of Socialism do work to varying degrees, it typically happens only when it is experimented with Capitalist economies.
Capitalism doesn't require Socialism in order to work as it's designed. The reverse is not true of Socialism. Where it runs without any Capitalist mix, it is almost universally a dismal failure. History proves this point.
The irony is, if Socialism rejects class and wealth concentrated in the hands of only a few wealthy ruling elites, why is that the exact model of most Socialist experiments? You will almost always find among them a small ruling political elite, holding power and wealth unto themselves and keeping it away from the masses. It is the exact opposite of their stated goal.
Meanwhile in most Capitalist economies, you have large classes of people holding vast reserves of wealth spread out across many levels. In fact you will find more people with weath or achieving it under Capitalism than ANY Socialist model can copy!
This is the ultimate fallacy and lie of Socialists and Socialism.
Last edited:
You just contradicted yourself, but not surprising........You said that "no Socialist ideology accepts Christ"......then turn around and say "that's why most of them (Socialists) do in fact reject Christ"......which mean that SOME do not, although you stated they all do previously.......
Yes you're right I did say that and I stand by it. However that absolute remains true until proven wrong and so far to me it has not been.
I honestly don't know any who do (accept Christ...if they are pure Socialists)...but I'd imagine there are some. I can't find any though, can you?
The ideology is anti-Christ MWV. That is true. Socialists are people who adopt the ideology and again as near as I can find those who do practice it and accept it exclusively absent any Capitalist leanings almost always reject Godly authority in preference or replacement for the State's which by definition means a rejection of Christ.
