Expansion

[Buckaineer]

Hey buck, I think the tone of my message was very polite, but in-light of your reply FU.

The tone of your message wasn't polite-it wasn't needed either. Not sure why some think they are going to tell me what to post or not, yet these same posters don't have anything to say to the fools derailing threads and trolling? Very curious.

There's no need for me to stop posting-this is a message board and I'm not going to stop because someone tries to erroneously argue about something I've stated. I'm happy to discuss anything, I'm not intimidated by anyone and if that's your intent I hope Vernon is watching and reading.

 

[Mountaineer Steve]

The tone of your message wasn't polite-it wasn't needed either. Not sure why some think they are going to tell me what to post or not, yet these same posters don't have anything to say to the fools derailing threads and trolling? Very curious.

There's no need for me to stop posting-this is a message board and I'm not going to stop because someone tries to erroneously argue about something I've stated. I'm happy to discuss anything, I'm not intimidated by anyone and if that's your intent I hope Vernon is watching and reading.

The heck it wasn't polite, and I agree I hope Vernon is watching A$$hat post like yours was.

 

[Mountaineer Steve]

The tone of your message wasn't polite-it wasn't needed either. Not sure why some think they are going to tell me what to post or not, yet these same posters don't have anything to say to the fools derailing threads and trolling? Very curious.

There's no need for me to stop posting-this is a message board and I'm not going to stop because someone tries to erroneously argue about something I've stated. I'm happy to discuss anything, I'm not intimidated by anyone and if that's your intent I hope Vernon is watching and reading.

Oh and here is just another one of your sweet comments

The tone of your message wasn't polite-it wasn't needed either. Not sure why some think they are going to tell me what to post or not, yet these same posters don't have anything to say to the fools derailing threads and trolling? Very curious.

There's no need for me to stop posting-this is a message board and I'm not going to stop because someone tries to erroneously argue about something I've stated. I'm happy to discuss anything, I'm not intimidated by anyone and if that's your intent I hope Vernon is watching and reading.

Oh and here is another sweet as you please insult message to topdecktiger
"Here for an example of the mind numbing stupidity of your argument" So again I hope Vernon is paying attention.

 

[Mountaineer Steve]

What's the point of your message? To tell me (as if you have the right) to stop posting because someone else is making a bogus argument about something I posted? I'd be impressed if you'd asked tiger to give it up perhaps, but no, I don't need to stop discussing something because someone else doesn't want to accept it, but can't make a reasonable argument as to why not.

You are a poster, not a moderator.

Buck -

 

[Mountaineer Steve]

M Steve you've posted yourself in the mirror.

Ohh snap Miss. Buck, I never heard that one before. I am sure everyone is laughing, to bad it is at you not with you

 

[Mountaineer Steve]

All anyone hears from you is BLA, BLA, BLA, BLA, BLA, and I still say

 

[Mountaineer Steve]

You keep telling yourself that. I'm 100% certain meanwhile all these thousands of posters and viewers aren't coming here to see you flip me the bird or tell me what to post. Get over yourself.

The argument was mind numbingly stupid. I didn't comment on the poster.

As mentioned I'm happy to discuss anything with anyone. You won't dictate to me what I can and can't post, and I'm not going to stop posting information for discussion because someone else can't accept it but also can't participate in a coherent reasonable debate about it.

OH and hence my point about agreeing to disagree, the three pages of arugments as you said were mind

You keep telling yourself that. I'm 100% certain meanwhile all these thousands of posters and viewers aren't coming here to see you flip me the bird or tell me what to post. Get over yourself.

And there it is again, bla, bla, bla, bla, bla :zzz:

 

[Buckaineer]

Sports Day Dallas write up on the state of affairs in the BIG 12:

excerpt:
A grant of rights by conference members was supposed to lock schools in place. A round-robin schedule was supposed to be a great selling point.

Both were good ideas that haven't worked to quell rumors that the Big 12 will sooner or later fragment. A conference network, expansion (which would probably be necessary for game inventory and a greater network footprint) and a return to a football title game would all send a message the Big 12 is serious about staying around.
http://sportsday.dallasnews.com/col...on-title-game-kirk-schulz-wants-everyone-page
http://sportsday.dallasnews.com/col...on-title-game-kirk-schulz-wants-everyone-page

 

[michaelwalkerbr]

The Big 12 will expand, either to 12 or possibly to 14. The usual suspects are the same. None of them mean 'lowering the conference standard' anymore than the Big 10 did by taking in Maryland and for God's sake, Rutgers! Look at the trash that the ACC took in. It's all about commitment to facilities, athletic and academic programs and of course, TV sets.

 

[Mountaineer Steve]

The Big 12 will expand, either to 12 or possibly to 14. The usual suspects are the same. None of them mean 'lowering the conference standard' anymore than the Big 10 did by taking in Maryland and for God's sake, Rutgers! Look at the trash that the ACC took in. It's all about commitment to facilities, athletic and academic programs and of course, TV sets.

Well at least Maryland had some tradition (be it old), and came from a P5 conference. The BIG wanted in the North East NY market bad. PickingRutgers that offers nothing, over a UCONN team, only shows the length the BIG will go to stay away from non AAU programs.

 

[Buckaineer]

The Cincinnati Enquirer details UCs bid to get into the BIG 12:
excerpt:
President Santa Ono has led a quiet and diligent effort to position the University of Cincinnati to join the Big 12 Conference, one that’s won high praise from a powerful official who is key to deciding whether the league will expand.

The university released emails, travel records and other documents to The Enquirer last week that give insight into UC’s attempt to join a Power 5 conference – a move that would position the Bearcats among the haves in a growing schism in college athletics rooted in television money and influence.

Big 12 expansion is not imminent, but UC is believed to be on a short list of schools to join a 10-member conference that includes traditional football heavyweights Oklahoma and Texas. Big 12 presidents and chancellors met earlier this month and reportedly discussed expansion, but no decisions were made. They are scheduled to meet again in May, when a decision on adding universities could be made.

http://www.cincinnati.com/story/news/2016/02/13/inside-ucs-bid-join-big-12/80280488/

 

[Buckaineer]

And more about Cincy's bid:
excerpt:
In a splashy brochure dated November 2014, UC shows how it compares to the Big 12 schools in 10 categories – including annual giving, National Merit Scholars, total research expenditures, enrollment and endowment assets. Cincinnati would rank in the conference's top 5 in each category listed, except the U.S. News & World Report rankings, which would put UC seventh.

More importantly, Cincinnati is a good-sized TV market. Its admission to the Big 12 would open up talent-rich Ohio to Big 12 football recruiters. UC basketball would be a good addition. If the conference also took Memphis or UConn, it could divide into two six-team divisions geographically, with UC, Memphis/UConn and West Virginia holding down the east.

The Big 12 has not been eager to discuss expansion, partly because adding members slices thinner the per-school revenue pie. And now that the conference has gotten the OK to hold a title game without adding members, it could be less willing to expand.

One of its power brokers, Oklahoma, seems to favor UC. The documents obtained show OU president David Boren as highly complimentary of Ono. The other big player, Texas, has not been as excited. And no one knows what ESPN thinks.

http://www.cincinnati.com/story/spo...2/13/doc-big-12-money-would-nice-uc/80341284/

 

[Mountaineer Steve]

"Later in the email, Wefald said: “The only way I see to get Cincinnati into the Big 12 is this: that UC and the 2nd school would have to volunteer to take the financial haircut yourselves. Why? Because the three major networks will never add enough monies to allow the next two schools to have the same revenues as the 10 to (sic) now.”

Wefald continued: “The emphasis of UC right now should be this: Get into the Big 12 and worry about equal revenues later. So get in now and tell the other 10 universities that you and the second school will take the haircut.

 

[Buckaineer]

Interesting statements by the former Kansas State president Jon Wefald in January 2015 regarding schools having to take a hit if added. However the current commissioner of the BIG 12 and current president of the University of Oklahoma have confirmed since that time in June 2015, that the BIG 12 would get pro rata shares if they added schools by the contract.

 

[michaelwalkerbr]

Any new members should receive pro rated shares they same way WVU and TCU did. Nebraska had to with the Big 10.

 

[Mountaineer Steve]

Any new members should receive pro rated shares they same way WVU and TCU did. Nebraska had to with the Big 10.

No doubt. I would start at 50%, and take 10 years to reach 100%

 

[michaelwalkerbr]

I like the 50%, but wouldn't 5 yrs be more reasonable?

 

[LowFatMilk]

No team should get 100 % initially.... ...but remember expansion would be an investment for the conference (since no power 5 team will be involved).

The Big 12 will need the new school to invest in infrastructure and branding which in the Power 5 takes money. Even WVU had issues in that regard for various reasons (buyout) but have recently been able to invest in major upgrades.

I'd suggest the Big 12 set guidelines (in a contract) how ieach school must improve during a probation period. That period would best be the time any given school isn't getting their 100% payout.

 

[michaelwalkerbr]

Except for the probation, I believe there were facility stipulations for WVU. I have to doubt that Oliver Luck and the school administration met one day and said," Wouldn't it be cool if we spent $150 million to do this?" [cheers]

 

[LowFatMilk]

I doubt the conference gave two shits about our concourse issues or about a field with a huge crown.

The baseball field...maybe.

 

[Mountaineer Steve]

I like the 50%, but wouldn't 5 yrs be more reasonable?

It is not about reasonable, but what it will take to expand, (if it ever happens). There needs to be money to pay off LHN, while keeping everyone all other BIG12 programs whole. Adding 2 G5 programs is not going to cut it There is a line of G5 programs wanting into the BIG12, and a 50% share is already higher than AAC pays. A ten year plan benefits both current and potential B12 programs

 

[Buckaineer]

Any new members will recieve at least pro rata shares per the contract. Its possible they could negotiate for more, but most likely with the candidates at hand that it will be pro rata shares.

One would expect that the new schools though will have a buy in period where the conference distributes a bit less to them, just as Nebraska, Utah, Colorado, Rutgers and Maryland have (or had--Colorado is now a full share member) in the Pac 12 and Big Ten or WVU and TCU did in the BIG 12 (both full share this season). Utah and Nebraska have had a really long buy in so one might expect more than five years for a Uconn or Cincinnati with full pay coming eventually, but maybe not until a new tv deal is struck.

 

[Buckaineer]

I doubt the conference gave two shits about our concourse issues or about a field with a huge crown.

The baseball field...maybe.

Recruits probably did--after all they certainly see other school's facilities too, and WVU's have to be upgraded.

 

[LowFatMilk]

Recruits probably did--after all they certainly see other school's facilities too, and WVU's have to be upgraded.

I disagree. While upgrading facilities like locker and weight rooms do matter... ...the crown on the field and the concession concourse area didn't mean two shits to them either.

 

[Buckaineer]

I disagree. While upgrading facilities like locker and weight rooms do matter... ...the crown on the field and the concession concourse area didn't mean two shits to them either.

The players play on the crown and can be injured on the crown. The concession concourse is for the fans primarily--after all schools want fans to attend. The nicer the facilities, the more comfortable the facilities, the more likley fans are to attend. The stadium needed updating.

As far as recruits and the concourse, surely the recruits tour more than just the locker and weight rooms. They go through the stadium--and they notice what WVUs looks like in comparison to other schools. If any family or friends come they'll notice that too.

You can't just let facilities sit and rot until they collapse, you have to maintain them and occasionally update them.

Since it doesn't come out of your pocket though, and you likely attend no events at WVU---why are you so concerned or rather upset that WVU is updating its facilities though? Why is that such a hot button issue for you?

 

[Mountaineer Steve]

I doubt the conference gave two shits about our concourse issues or about a field with a huge crown.

The baseball field...maybe.

Conferences do give two chits about facilities, and is why Luck started the current massive push. When WVU and Mizzu were the leading candidates for the SEC, the biggest concern out side of TV market was the state of the facilities. WVU put together and provided a to the SEC a comprehensive plan for upgrading all the facilities. That plan was used for the basis of the current upgrades in place or taking place inducing but not limited to a new BB park, and significant upgrades to the coliseum and MPS.

 

[Buckaineer]

This is an interesting section from a Yahoo article on Cincinnati:

excerpt:
Cincinnati would be a geographical fit for the Big 12 because the conference has no one located between Iowa State and West Virginia. The Bearcats would bring new television markets into play for the Big 12, though deciphering who a 12th team could be for the conference is a dicier proposition. If the Big 12 gets back to 12 and wants to go back to North and South divisions (without separating Oklahoma and Oklahoma State), a team north of Texas and Oklahoma may be necessary to join with Cincinnati.

http://sports.yahoo.com/blogs/ncaaf-dr-saturday/cincinnati-s-president-has-been-campaigning-for-big-12-move-181030276.html

Many fans of different schools bring up the idea of "north-south" divisions. While its doubtful they would recreate this since it led to disgruntled schools before (i.e. Nebraska and Missouri and Colorado all left)--who could be added in the north to go with WVU, Kansas State, Kansas, Iowa State and Cincinnati to create a semi balance ? (yet another reason its doubtful they would do divisions in that way-it wouldn't be attractive to the tv networks).

I see divisions more like:

Texas--crossovers: OU, TCU, K State
OSU--crossovers: OU, WVU, Uconn
Baylor--crossovers: TCU, Uconn, Kansas State
Texas Tech--crossovers: TCU, Kansas State, Cincinnati
Iowa State--crossovers: WVU, Cincinnati, OU
Kansas--crossovers: Kansas State, Cincinnati, Uconn


OU--crossovers: Texas, OSU, Iowa State
TCU--crossovers: Texas, Baylor, Texas Tech
Kansas State--crossovers: Kansas, Texas Tech, Baylor
WVU--crossovers: OSU, Baylor, Iowa State
Cincinnati--crossovers: Iowa State, Kansas, Texas Tech
UConn--crossovers: Kansas, Baylor, OSU

 

[LowFatMilk]

The players play on the crown and can be injured on the crown. The concession concourse is for the fans primarily--after all schools want fans to attend. The nicer the facilities, the more comfortable the facilities, the more likley fans are to attend. The stadium needed updating.

As far as recruits and the concourse, surely the recruits tour more than just the locker and weight rooms. They go through the stadium--and they notice what WVUs looks like in comparison to other schools. If any family or friends come they'll notice that too.

You can't just let facilities sit and rot until they collapse, you have to maintain them and occasionally update them.

Since it doesn't come out of your pocket though, and you likely attend no events at WVU---why are you so concerned or rather upset that WVU is updating its facilities though? Why is that such a hot button issue for you?

I never wrote that the improvements didn't need to happen (I feel they did) that's you reaching (as usual). I did write that recruits wouldn't notice or care about those particular ones. Feel free to find a former recruit who declared he wouldn't attend WVU because of the crown on the field or crowded concession areas.

You're correct about my attendance of home (I prefer road) games. So ? ESPN is paying all that money because of people attending games ? Umm no... ...it's because ME !! ...not to mention the endless other ways I provide money for WVU.

 

[Buckaineer]

I never wrote that the improvements didn't need to happen (I feel they did) that's you reaching (as usual). I did write that recruits wouldn't notice or care about those particular ones. Feel free to find a former recruit who declared he wouldn't attend WVU because of the crown on the field or crowded concession areas.

You're correct about my attendance of home (I prefer road) games. So ? ESPN is paying all that money because of people attending games ? Umm no... ...it's because ME !! ...not to mention the endless other ways I provide money for WVU.

I am not reaching. You are reaching in implying recruits don't care about facility improvements. Of course facility improvements of all kinds have an impact. From toilets to landscaping to seats to signage--whatever you want to look at--yes it affects recruiting. Its why all across America schools invest in facility improvements. For recruiting, and for fans.

I bring up your attendance because you are heavily criticizing something that doesn't affect you in any way shape or form. If you attended games you'd understand why its a good idea to update the concessions and the concourse. If you had a child attending there you'd understand. If you don't go to the games then it doesn't affect you in any way so why would you disparage the school for making the changes, or pretend they don't affect the people who see them and experience them in person?

 

[LowFatMilk]

I bring up your attendance because you are heavily criticizing something that doesn't affect you in any way shape or form. If you attended games you'd understand why its a good idea to update the concessions and the concourse. If you had a child attending there you'd understand. If you don't go to the games then it doesn't affect you in any way so why would you disparage the school for making the changes, or pretend they don't affect the people who see them and experience them in person?

Heavily criticizing something I just made clear needed to happen ? Reaching again.

You're actually having an argument with yourself. I obviously care about recruiting... ...and you say getting to the pisser quickly helps recruiting. ...so it does affect me and my team.

Read carefully... I ENDORSE UPGRADING BOTH THE FIELD AND THE CONCOURSES. ...I just disagree it's a concern for a 17 year old kid.

You really should re-read my recent posts. I NEVER acted like WVU was wasting money but I have stated multiple times you over react. I'm sure you won't let me down now.

 

[Buckaineer]

Here's an update on the money issue re: UC or other additions--from NBC sports:

excerpt:
Ono also met privately with former Kansas State president Jon Wefald, who provided the UC president with bad information. “The only way I see to get Cincinnati into the Big 12 is this: that UC and the 2nd school would have to volunteer to take the financial haircut yourselves. Why? Because the three major networks will never add enough monies to allow the next two schools to have the same revenues as the 10 to (sic) now,” he wrote. “The emphasis of UC right now should be this: Get into the Big 12 and worry about equal revenues later. So get in now and tell the other 10 universities that you and the second school will take the haircut.”


This is incorrect, which turns out to be a bullet point in Cincinnati’s favor.


Big 12 commissioner Bob Bowlsby confirmed last summer the league’s contracts with ESPN and FOX would expand with the conference’s membership.




Jason Kirk of SB Nation did a back-of-the-envelope estimation that concluded adding two schools would cost the remaining 10 schools between $1.5 and $2 million annually in College Football Playoff, NCAA and bowl payouts, but that’s before adding in the likelihoods of additional bowl and NCAA payouts that come with an expanded roster, plus the fact that the Big 12 would now have a conference championship game to sell to TV networks. In short, Cincinnati and another school likely wouldn’t cost the Big 12 much of a “haircut” at all.

http://collegefootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2016/02/14/emails-detail-cincinnatis-effort-to-join-big-12/

 

[Mountaineer Steve]

T1, and T2 TV monies will be the same but all monies would decrease. If everyone was going to be kept hole or make more money then there would be no objections to expanding.

And with so many cutting the cord a traditional network Like the BIG and SEC is going to be difficult at best to build right now

 

[Buckaineer]

Some people don't want to expand because they like the round robin. Some don't want a championship. Some think they have an advantage with a smaller conference. No one is going to lose money in expansion- it's the only way they are going to significantly increase revenues.

 

[LowFatMilk]

Zero evidence that revenue will be significantly higher with expansion (which I support for other reasons).

 

[michaelwalkerbr]

The anecdotal evidence that revenues would increase would be the SEC and Big 10 networks. The argument against it would be the PAC network. You can't even count the ACC yet. The Big 12 has hired two of the top names in the business to analyze exactly that using a multitude of scenarios. I would imagine ESPN and Fox Sports have done the same. It's not like reinventing the wheel. If they do their homework, expand and lose money it's due to someone's incompetence. If they make money it's due to excellent planning.

 

[Buckaineer]

Zero evidence that revenue will be significantly higher with expansion (which I support for other reasons).

A championship game will add $25 to $35 million to the conference. It's unlikely to happen with a 10 team conference. A conference network will add $4 to $6 million per school. This is according to the conference commissioner and the president of Oklahoma, both of whom have studied the subjects and work in the business. That is evidence.

 

[Buckaineer]

The anecdotal evidence that revenues would increase would be the SEC and Big 10 networks. The argument against it would be the PAC network. You can't even count the ACC yet. The Big 12 has hired two of the top names in the business to analyze exactly that using a multitude of scenarios. I would imagine ESPN and Fox Sports have done the same. It's not like reinventing the wheel. If they do their homework, expand and lose money it's due to someone's incompetence. If they make money it's due to excellent planning.

The Pac 12 makes money, they just don't make as much as the Big Ten or SEC because of demand, and they own and operate the network 100% so their expenses are much higher.

 

[michaelwalkerbr]

Buck, I just bet a man $100 who claims he knows that the Big 12 is not going to expand this year or next that we will not only learn before the end of the year that they are expanding, but who the teams will be. Did I make a bad bet? (I can afford it)

 

[Buckaineer]

Buck, I just bet a man $100 who claims he knows that the Big 12 is not going to expand this year or next that we will not only learn before the end of the year that they are expanding, but who the teams will be. Did I make a bad bet? (I can afford it)

The conference is going to eventually expand, but timeline wise? Who knows. Even if in May they actually voted, its going to take a couple of years. I dont believe theyll vote in May. They will get the information in May then continue to piddle around unless the info is so compelling they have no choice. I believe they want to know the Big Ten numbers first.

 

[Mountaineer Steve]

Buck, I just bet a man $100 who claims he knows that the Big 12 is not going to expand this year or next that we will not only learn before the end of the year that they are expanding, but who the teams will be. Did I make a bad bet? (I can afford it)

They won't expand or announce who if any programs will be invited this year. Once a decision has been made it will take 1 to 1 1/22 years to get into place. Too many BIG12 programs are short sited and all about today. The are not interested in making an investment in the short term to expand, even it it means the conference benefits in the long term. My guess; the BIG12 will vote for 10 team conference game, earn an extra 3 million per year per program and see how things play out.