Just to tie off this debate boomer because it's not fair to the board (it's between you and me) I'm not going to spend all day today continuing it and no one will read it all anyway. I want to tie this off so you understand EXACTLY what I find irritating and insulting about how you debate. Then I promise I'm going to end it because you are correct it is ultimately pointless. You're not changing my mind, and I know I'll never change yours. So what's the point?
I started out trying to prove one point with my challenge to you. And You proved it. That was, the Left cannot be honest about what they believe, and cannot defend it to win their arguments or their beliefs.
I said they usually run away, get mad, call names, lie, or simply refuse to engage in when confronted with or asked to defend their ideas. I'll give you credit...you did not run away. I believe you did not because you wanted to prove me wrong but you in fact proved everything else I said you'd do arguing from the Left or running away from it as fast you could.
When I started asking questions for you to defend Leftist positions, you immediately started doing what ALL Leftists do when confronted with their ideology and asked to defend it. They lie about it, or refuse to answer the questions or claim that's not what they actually believe. You no doubt answered my questions, but not as a Leftist. You denied what you argue for. You denied you are a Leftist.
In fact we went through a series of questions fundamental to what the Left believes and in fact advocates and you systematically either denied that's what Leftists believe, or denied YOU believe that. On taxes, affirmative action, Human Life, Supremacy of the State, Income redistribution, America's history in the world fighting for Freedom, even the foundations of the nation itself...on every issue I asked you about that Leftists believe you either denied it or claimed you do not believe that, or tried to argue something else that Leftists do not support.
So when I tried to pin you down on exactly what you do believe since you denied what Leftists believe...I was treated with your well honed skills of situational relativism. Because obviously if you cannot be pinned down any one issue you can always argue your positions from whatever side of the debate makes you look best. Do Democrats favor Socialism? Depends on how it's defined. Is a Fetus Human? Depends on what Pro Choice folks think when Life begins. Do Capitalist economies work best? Depends on what you mean by best or what is Capitalist...does it include some form of Socialism? On and on it went...issue by issue I asked you about and what Leftists believe.
You're smart enough to know that if you argue from the Left, those ideas can be easily discredited...for instance you admitted there is no Socialist command and control economy that works. So you answered the question with a mixed economy like China, and claimed for yourself that you do not believe all Democrats want a Socialist economy for America. However when I asked you to differentiate what they believe that is different from a Socialist command and control economy where the Government does run everything...you simply refused to admit that or explain what the differences are.
Throughout our exchange, you in fact ran away from almost all solidly held Leftist positions arguing that is not either what Leftists believe or what you personally believe. I pointed out that fact, and you insisted you are not a Leftist! Proving my point. Leftists can't defend what they believe in, lie about it, or run away from defending it. You didn't run away from the actual debate true enough, but you ran away from the ideology by pretending you don't support it, or believe something else.
It's a smart debate tactic, but it's annoying because Leftists are indeed absolutists! They absolutely believe in the Supremacy of the State over Individual Liberty and Freedom, they absolutely believe in income redistribution and destruction of the free enterprise system and removal of personal Wealth, they absolutely do not believe in America's exceptional place in world history, nor its God given foundations. They absolutely do not believe we are Created, or that Human Life is sacred. Neither do you but you won't defend that. So I get the "energy" explanation, and the fact our Founders were speaking of many concepts of the "Creator". Convenient, but not honest debate.
You do not believe in any of those things either, but you are smart enough to know that defending them will get your ass handed to you in a debate over the actual ideas. So you use situational relativism to hide behind arguing as an absolutist Socialist Leftist atheist (even though there is very little you actually disagree with them on) and you pick and choose certain elements of the Conservative side when it fits your purposes so you can say you support those in a debate and not get pinned down as a discredited Leftist.
It's clever debate tactic, but a poor way to win an argument because you end up being all over the place and you refuse to take a firm stand. Leftists can't win their ideas. You know that, so you don't argue them. You argue something that's not quite Left... but certainly not absolutely on the Right because you are not Conservative and you can't stand them (especially Christians)... so you argue situational relativism where you can pick and choose what to defend from BOTH sides and never claim you are defeated in an argument or get pinned down in one firmly on the Left. You also get to express outrage over Christians or Conservatives who do stand firmly on their absolute beliefs.
Then you get to call names, and tell folks like me that I'm being judgemental because I claim the superiority of my ideas above the Left while accusing me of thinking only my ideas on the Right are are acceptable. However I do not hide behind the fact that I'm on the Right. I boldly stand there and defend it. I do argue both from a positional perspective and from an absolutist perspective that Christian Conservatism is where I stand on my approach to issues. I defend that and I do not shift my positions to fit my arguments. I argue for my positions on the Right. You do not do the same for your positions on the Left, and when you are asked to defend them you shift positions using your relativist techniques.
If you weren't such a coward, you'd also argue from the same absolutist positions on the Left. But you won't do that because you know you will loose that debate. No one on the Left argues absolute
Socialism, Statism, collectivism...but this is absolutely what they pursue once in power. They know (and you too) they will never be allowed by the American people to practice this openly by winning elections promising to Socialize America...so they lie and call Socialized medicine the "Affordable care act" even though it is/was a takeover of the American Health care system and is absolutely NOT affordable.
So as I predicted, you lied, ran away from, and admitted you couldn't defend Leftist State sponsored Socialism which is what you absolutely believe in. You tried to say that Leftists don't believe in it (lie) that you don't support it (lie) and that it depends on how it's defined to know what it really is (another lie) You are smart...more clever than informed...but you are smart enough to know if you embrace what you actually believe in its absolutist terms you will be discredited.
So you draw your relativist sword, and slash away...refusing to be pinned down on any absolute terms, beliefs, or Leftist positions lest you be exposed. What you relatively believe can't be categorized, or criticized, or evaluated, or measured, or understood because it's a constantly moving target to avoid being labeled Leftist Socialism. That's fine. But this 10 page thread is proof of all I've said and proved about you folks on the Left and how you try to trick Americans into following your discredited ideology.
I know you can't defend your beliefs in the the arena of ideas, but I wish you'd be honest enough about them because you don't fool me you certainly don't fool the vast majority of the American people. You and the Left simply frustrate us over your refusal to support or fight for what you absolutely believe in.