I have been hearing about Stewart only having 60 or so scholarship players on the roster when Holgorsen took over. I have heard that this was true from some, but have also heard that this was incorrect, and a mischaracterization of standard attrition that every coach deals with. Does anyone have a credible link proving this one way or the other?
Bill Stewart only having around 60 scholarship players
- Thread starter dolemitebmf
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I believe I recall quotes from Bill Stewart saying something to the effect that he saw no reason to recruit 25 players each year and a much lower number was adequate.
The info you want is in the banner at the top of this page under the tab FB RECRUITING. Click on Commitment List and bring up the years 2008 - 2011. The totals at the top of the page give you the number of signed and unsigned commitments. Subtract the unsigned to get each year's commitments.
2008 - 26, 2009 - 25, 2010 - 20, 2011 - 22. 2011 is a toss up because it was supposed to be the HCIW year, but DH took over in June so attribute that year as you wish, but Stewart was the HC at the time of commitment even if only in name. So total is 93 players signed.
Now comes the hard part in that not all players ever set foot on campus and many left or transferred. I'm not certain how many players fall into that category, but if 5-6 player from every class ended up that way you would get about 70 or so who stuck.
With carry-overs from 2006-2008 added in the 85 scholarship limit is within reach, but probably not 100% capacity every year.
This is why you see some programs over book their commitments hoping for attrition to take care of the balance.
2008 - 26, 2009 - 25, 2010 - 20, 2011 - 22. 2011 is a toss up because it was supposed to be the HCIW year, but DH took over in June so attribute that year as you wish, but Stewart was the HC at the time of commitment even if only in name. So total is 93 players signed.
Now comes the hard part in that not all players ever set foot on campus and many left or transferred. I'm not certain how many players fall into that category, but if 5-6 player from every class ended up that way you would get about 70 or so who stuck.
With carry-overs from 2006-2008 added in the 85 scholarship limit is within reach, but probably not 100% capacity every year.
This is why you see some programs over book their commitments hoping for attrition to take care of the balance.
Stewart and staff saw how anemic the roster was with scholarship players when Dana arrived and started handing out free rides to walkons that spring left and right to try to cover their tracks with the "well, they earned it!" routine.............
The sad thing is you probably believe that.
All it takes is a look at the names who were "scholarship" guys in 2011, V...... there's plenty of names who the previous season were walk ons....
Which is exactly what every staff does. You reward the walk-ons that help you throughout their career. But as usual you have to turn it into an attack on Stewart.
Programs do it for 1-2 guys.............. not the amount we did during Stewart's time. It's not an anti-BS rant... it's just examining the numbers, V.
It's not examining the numbers, it's you giving your opinion when you try to suggest the staff did it to "cover their tracks". They had several to give because guys didn't make it in and why would they need to hide that? They knew they made mistakes and so did everyone else so there was nothing to hide.
You've made it very clear how you feel about Stewart but you're not going to come here and give your opinions as if they were facts in attempt to make the situation look worse than it was.
When I asked for a credible link or info, I was hoping that you would weigh in. My recollection is that Stewart though that taking more commits than we had available scholarships was unethical. He also rewarded hard working and high performing walkons with scholarships, which is the right thing to do.
I wanted to see if there was evidence either way though, because I really didn't know 100%, either way. Does this mean that the claim of Stewart only having around 60 scholarship players is BS? I would think you would have much better knowledge on the situation than people on this board speculating either way.
The numbers dipped into the 60s only for a semester but were generally around the high 70s. It wasn't the small classes he signed it was the fact that so many failed to enroll or left early. That was a problem for Stew and Rich because back then you weren't held accountable by the NCAA. Today they will drop your scholarship numbers if you fall below a certain number. It's forced schools to do a better job.
Here's how they explain it....
Division I Academic Progress Rate (APR)
Implemented in 2003 as part of an ambitious academic reform effort in Division I, the Academic Progress Rate (APR) holds institutions accountable for the academic progress of their student-athletes through a team-based metric that accounts for the eligibility and retention of each student-athlete for each academic term.
The APR emerged when Division I presidents and chancellors sought a more timely assessment of academic success at colleges and universities. At the time, the best measure was the graduation rate calculated under the federally mandated methodology that was based on a six-year window and did not take transfers into account.
In addition to developing the APR, the presidents also adopted a new graduation rate methodology that more accurately reflects student-athlete transfer patterns and other factors affecting graduation (the new rate is called the Graduation Success Rate).
The APR system includes rewards for superior academic performance and penalties for teams that do not achieve certain academic benchmarks. Data are collected annually, and results are announced in the spring.
The Division I Committee on Academics (CoA) oversees the Academic Progress Rate as part of its responsibilities with the Academic Performance Program. The CoA sets policies and recommends legislative changes to the Division I Board of Directors which has the final say on changes in Division I.
Didn't it take 4 yrs for Dana to get back to the 85 scholly level since you can only bring in 25 a yr? Isn't that almost like being on NCAA probation with scholarship losses?
No they were able to get there quicker than that and Dana is starting to have a few losses in his classes as well. It just shows you how difficult it can be for any staff and that's why you can't take the chances as Stew did.
Dana's last three classes now have 16, 8 and 13 scholarship players remaining. He's either going to need to really build up the next few or if it isn't him the next coach is going to be screwed.
Are the old scholarship distribution charts available anywhere? I know that the 2015 version shows 84 out of 85 scholarships used.
Here's a link to a Casazza article on finally reaching 85 and previously being in the high 60's:
http://blogs.wvgazettemail.com/wvu/2014/08/20/and-angus-makes-85/
WVU freshman Dontae Angus says he’s eligible/enrolled. Will be on campus tomorrow. Pop bottles. Dana finally has 85 scholarship players.
— Mike Casazza (@mikecasazza) August 20, 2014
That’s big. It’s Dontae Angus-big. Try as they might, the Mountaineers couldn’t get to that number in Dana’s first three seasons, and for some of the seasons before that. You don’t need to be at 85, but if you want depth and quality spring and camp football, you ought to be darn close. WVU was in the high 60s at times in the past and gradually moved toward the max before finally hitting it today.
You mean he might be "leaving the cupboard bare" for the next guy? Wow, that's not what we hear from his fan club.
I haven't had a chance to finish this or do the numbers but here's a quick look, I'll get it updated next week... https://westvirginia.n.rivals.com/news/wvsports-com-2015-wvu-scholarship-distribution-chart
You mean he might be "leaving the cupboard bare" for the next guy? Wow, that's not what we hear from his fan club.
I am no fan of DH, but I do not think any coach would do that by design. Every coach has to believe there is no next guy until there is a next guy. Intentionally shorting the recruitment process is something only a coach that was indifferent to the process or did not understand might do. I do not think either of those qualities is something that can be pinned on DH.
DH is not a bad coach, in fact he is probably a pretty good one. My issue with him is that he is not a good fit for WVU and I have serious doubts that his niche in coaching life is at the P5 level. But, I do not now nor have I ever thought DH was a dishonest or lazy man.
Of course he currently has a large class committed but by all means don't let your bias show, Vernon. I know math is not your strength.
2008 was not his class..we played in the Fiesta Bowl in Jan 2009..he was hired three weeks before the signing date..this site is pure comedy..
You may want to watch how you talk to me. I wouldn't hesitate to remove you and your ignorance.
instead of hearing it..why not just take the time to use the recruiting drop down menu on this site and see for yourself..
You misunderstood, Charleston. Vernon's statement was a total contradiction of what Holgorsen's fan club tells us every day, and is even more comical given the fan club's constant complaints about Stewart.
I wasn't suggesting the attrition was intentional. No coach would do that under any circumstances. The irony sure is hilarious, though.
contrary to what he says, Kevin kinder and Greg hunter confirmed Stewart left the program numbers in the 60's. Not just a semester.
Thanx but this link only shows the 2015 chart updated from May to Dec. I know that players have left but they can/will be replaced by early enrollees. What I was looking for was yearly charts from the same time of year - before or after the season - to be able compare scholarship usage under the different coaches.
Oh in that case I must be wrong. Lol Maybe you should hang out over there more rather than here attacking the other users on a daily basis.
And since you're not capable of keeping up, that was my point. The numbers were at their lowest for that semester and then you have another class coming in.
I have a few of the past charts but only the last few seasons. Keenan did a whole series of articles on how bad things were at times under the two previous staffs when it comes to attrition.
as I may have been guilty in the past, it works both ways. You never said earlier that was just the lowest point in numbers you referred to. So my point was correct.
Well actually it wasn't correct because Stewart had several of his last class already in town before he was pushed out. Keep in mind it was his program going into that year so he had no choice but to "leave it" with those numbers.
Is there even a point to this discussion? Stewart signed enough but did a poor job of getting them into school and keeping them. No one should dispute that. I assume the point was to give Dana a pass for the poor seasons he had and that's somewhat understandable. Low numbers and a better conference are not a great mix. But if Dana doesn't make it at WVU it will be because of in-game coaching and lack of recruiting and development at the QB position.
i agree with that. His biggest fault was getting the kids into the program. Several didn't make it due to grades, character flaws/legal issues, homesick issues, etc. He signed one kid 2-3 times (Tevita Finau). Another kid twice, Deon Long who went to Maryland eventually. That is 4-5 scholarships down already. Add in the fact the NCAA has a limit to how many kids can sign in one year, and the kids who graduated, it's easy to see how it takes a few years to correct it.
If I remember correctly, Stew got himself in trouble when he tried to justify signing less than the max by basically saying that 5 classes of 17 gets you to 85. At the time there was speculation that this was to cover missing on recruits or players not making it here.
1. I will agree with your statement above, Vernon. Absolutely nothing to disagree with in that statement.
2. As far as your threat of banning me, do what you want. I could take this board or leave it.
No he talked about that very early in his time as head coach. And there's never a need to sign less than you want because you can easily fill those spots with your third and fourth choice. His logic was fine, the execution not so much.
Personally I say sign around the max each year and let the numbers work out over the years.
