WVU Coaches A.D's a rambling post

[xgunnx]

I been watching Mountaineer Football since the first game my Uncle took me too circa1976-77. Thats was when the stadium was still downtown. WVU was a Eastern Independent.

Really enjoyed the Don Nehlen era. The new stadium, some national recognition and a budding Eastern Conference. The Nehlen Draw Play and a ground breaking QB Major Harris. Lived through the Nehlen cant win a bowl game upheaval. But The Mountaineers were always #1 to this fan.

Rich Rodriguez "Spot the Ball" and Touchdown city era. Coach Rod took what Nehlen built and super charged the football program. The Big East was underrated but was strong as ever. Still enjoy watching the Spread Option highlights from that time. Then things got sour and Rodriguez left.

Coach Stew era was under whelming but Stewart did a above average job overall. He had to deal with NCAA scholarship reductions stemming from the Rodriguez ran program. Stewart was a great Mountaineer and outstanding man, but he was old school in a time when the game was evolving and changing. Ultimately that cost him and he was pushed out. I understood the reason a change was needed but it was handled poorly.

Holgrosen and the "air raid" era. I bought in 100% and really hoped to see amazing things. When we lost to Kansas thats when i started thinking is Holgrosen going to become the Head Coach that we all wanted. At times I've seen flashes of what could be with Holgrosen. I continued to support Holgrosen through it all. Im at a point that i really hope he can turn the corner and get the Mountaineers into the top 3 spots in the Big XII. He is running out of time unfortunately and im beginning to doubt his ability to lead the Mountaineers.

Pastilong, Luck and Lyons. Three Athletic Directors each one vastly different from the one before him. But it seems like I'm seeing/reading the same negative criticisms and condemnation of our A.D. whether its Pastilong, Luck or now Lyons. Seems like some fans/alumni can not be satisfied no matter who the A.D. is currently.

The Mountaineers have always had down/rebuild years followed by good then great season(s). It will continue to be like this while other programs reload The Mountaineers rebuild. IMO The 2016 season will either make or break Holgrosen.

Lyons is doing a fine job and not coming to terms with Holg yet in regards to contract negotiations is not as damaging to the program as some want to conclude.

Assistant coaches come and go, having one leave doesn't mean something "toxic" or "bad" is occurring behind closed doors. I see it as a chance to find a really good assistant coach and improve the coaching staff.

/End rambling.

Lets go Mountaineers and Big XII

 

[Rootmaster]

Good post.

 

[Charleston Mountie]

...

The Mountaineers have always had down/rebuild years followed by good then great season(s). It will continue to be like this while other programs reload The Mountaineers rebuild. IMO The 2016 season will either make or break Holgrosen.

...

This is the problem for Dana, he has not had the upside of the rebuild cycle. Winning 7 or 8 wins in a season of 12+1 games should be considered a rebuilding year, not his most productive seasons. When your team is in a rebuilding cycle for 5 years without once gracing the top of the conference, your coach is lacking it what it takes for your program to succeed. Don, Rich and even Bill had great years, Dana has not given us one, worse he has never even come close to it.

There are those that like to point at the Clemson game or even that whole season as proof that Dana has what it takes but that was Bill Stewart's team, just as much as the Oklahoma game was Rich's team.

 

[michaelwalkerbr]

This is the problem for Dana, he has not had the upside of the rebuild cycle. Winning 7 or 8 wins in a season of 12+1 games should be considered a rebuilding year, not his most productive seasons. When your team is in a rebuilding cycle for 5 years without once gracing the top of the conference, your coach is lacking it what it takes for your program to succeed. Don, Rich and even Bill had great years, Dana has not given us one, worse he has never even come close to it.

There are those that like to point at the Clemson game or even that whole season as proof that Dana has what it takes but that was Bill Stewart's team, just as much as the Oklahoma game was Rich's team.

Point taken, but 2015 is a season that could have and should have been a 10 win season if not for the poor decisions by the HC and execution by a hobbled QB. How is a QB in a game long enough to commit five turnovers? I have friends in SC that watched the KSU game and swear that Holgorsen threw the game. I know that isn't true, but I can see where they could think that.

 

[xgunnx]

This is the problem for Dana, he has not had the upside of the rebuild cycle. Winning 7 or 8 wins in a season of 12+1 games should be considered a rebuilding year, not his most productive seasons. When your team is in a rebuilding cycle for 5 years without once gracing the top of the conference, your coach is lacking it what it takes for your program to succeed. Don, Rich and even Bill had great years, Dana has not given us one, worse he has never even come close to it.

Ill concede that point and agree. Holgrosen has not had that special season. Its like each year is rebuild with no cycle up. Even under Rod, Stew and Dandy Don we knew to expect a good season after a rebuild year. We could see the progression throughout a down season giving us hope and expectations that the following season will be great.

Unfortunately, even though i want Holgosen to be successful, I've not seen similar progressions and/or build up cycle.

I do have high hopes that offensively The Mountaineers give us that exciting and winning conference record in 2016. Another 4-5 conference record will be very disappointing. IMO

 

[michaelwalkerbr]

With a rebuilt defense, the offense has got to be strong. I don't care who the QB is, he has to make all of the throws. If he can't there has to be a backup who can be sent in with a chance to change the game. 2016 cannot be a repeat of the 2015 QB situation to have a chance to succeed.

 

[MikeRafone]

I can't believe that all this fuss has been caused by a near word for word rewrite of a two paragraph Charleston newspaper article, by a Raese hack on a WVRC website.

Who do do you think is pulling Allen Taylor's strings? Raese tried his best to get rid of Luck, Holgerson is next on his list. If Huggins ticks him off, are people going to be calling for Bob's head over a bunch of innuendo?

There are other sources on WVU sports other than Raese's little fiefdom. Boyott Little John's weekly shopping rags and join the rest of the world!

 

[Cuyahoga Falls Eers]

OK, I'll beat a dead horse again.

TCU came from a conference 1 or 2 levels below WVU's former conference and rose to the top. WVU has not. Difference: Coaching and recruiting, both on the head coach.

Make all the excuses you want but if TCU can do it, then WVU should be able to do it with the right coaching.

Huggins does it. Same conference. Hell, the Big 12 ranks higher in basketball than in football among college conferences, so Bob had a higher mountain to climb, and did.

Either Dana proves he can do it ((2016 should be his last chance) of find someone who can do it.

 

[Boomboom521]

OK, I'll beat a dead horse again.

TCU came from a conference 1 or 2 levels below WVU's former conference and rose to the top. WVU has not. Difference: Coaching and recruiting, both on the head coach.

Make all the excuses you want but if TCU can do it, then WVU should be able to do it with the right coaching.

Huggins does it. Same conference. Hell, the Big 12 ranks higher in basketball than in football among college conferences, so Bob had a higher mountain to climb, and did.

Either Dana proves he can do it ((2016 should be his last chance) of find someone who can do it.

The T in TCU stands for Texas! I hear there are a lot of pretty good players in that state. Talent has a lot to do with our programs state, and state has a lot to do with talent.

 

[Charleston Mountie]

The T in TCU stands for Texas! I hear there are a lot of pretty good players in that state. Talent has a lot to do with our programs state, and state has a lot to do with talent.

Recruiting is part of the HC's job and for a coach with a high powered offense reputation he has recruited QBs that while decent players are not D1 level talent. A lot of are not located in Texas, that really has nothing to do with our talent pool. The head coach determines who and where we recruit and WVU has no one on staff that knows good raw talent when they see it, regardless of the state the kid is from.

 

[Darth_VadEER]

OK, I'll beat a dead horse again.

TCU came from a conference 1 or 2 levels below WVU's former conference and rose to the top. WVU has not. Difference: Coaching and recruiting, both on the head coach.

Make all the excuses you want but if TCU can do it, then WVU should be able to do it with the right coaching.

Huggins does it. Same conference. Hell, the Big 12 ranks higher in basketball than in football among college conferences, so Bob had a higher mountain to climb, and did.

Either Dana proves he can do it ((2016 should be his last chance) of find someone who can do it.

I don't disagree with you, but please remember TCU is at their all time high. WVU has had success over decades.

Just saying, don't get too caught up in the moment.

 

[ThePunish-EER]

OK, I'll beat a dead horse again.

TCU came from a conference 1 or 2 levels below WVU's former conference and rose to the top. WVU has not. Difference: Coaching and recruiting, both on the head coach.

Make all the excuses you want but if TCU can do it, then WVU should be able to do it with the right coaching.

Huggins does it. Same conference. Hell, the Big 12 ranks higher in basketball than in football among college conferences, so Bob had a higher mountain to climb, and did.

Either Dana proves he can do it ((2016 should be his last chance) of find someone who can do it.

lmao good grief. Get it together. It's a lot easier to recruit and compete in bball than football. You have 85 scholarship to fill in football. How many in bball? 10? There's a lot of bball talent to get. The Dukes of the world can't have them all. You think butler, gonzaga, and vcu could this in football? Or George mason in the final four twice?

Secondly, TCU is in Texas. Texas produces 350 D1 players a year. How many does WV produce? 3-4 on a good year.

 

[torontoeers]

OK, I'll beat a dead horse again.

TCU came from a conference 1 or 2 levels below WVU's former conference and rose to the top. WVU has not. Difference: Coaching and recruiting, both on the head coach.

Make all the excuses you want but if TCU can do it, then WVU should be able to do it with the right coaching.

Huggins does it. Same conference. Hell, the Big 12 ranks higher in basketball than in football among college conferences, so Bob had a higher mountain to climb, and did.

Either Dana proves he can do it ((2016 should be his last chance) of find someone who can do it.

And I'll beat a different dead horse again! And for the record I'm no 'Danapologist' or whatever the hell the board Is calling It now...This if TCU can do it shtick is old....2008 #7 rank end of season after beating Boise St in Poinsettia. 2009 lost to Boise St after going 12-0. 2010 Beat B-10 champ Whisky in the Rose Bowl to go undefeated, 2011 Poinsettia bowl win again and #16 rank end of season...so go on and tell me how we're just the same going into B-12 membership, or better yet accuse me of being some TCU shill...it doesn't change the fact that they were one helluva football program before entrance to the B12...

 

[Darth_VadEER]

And I'll beat a different dead horse again! And for the record I'm no 'Danapologist' or whatever the hell the board Is calling It now...This if TCU can do it shtick is old....2008 #7 rank end of season after beating Boise St in Poinsettia. 2009 lost to Boise St after going 12-0. 2010 Beat B-10 champ Whisky in the Rose Bowl to go undefeated, 2011 Poinsettia bowl win again and #16 rank end of season...so go on and tell me how we're just the same going into B-12 membership, or better yet accuse me of being some TCU shill...it doesn't change the fact that they were one helluva football program before entrance to the B12...

Good post.

It will be ignored. So what's your opinion on expansion? LOL.

 

[torontoeers]

Good post.

It will be ignored. So what's your opinion on expansion? LOL.

Lol thanks Darth...where are we up to on that post count now anyway? Likely somewhere around 2000? I don't have the heart/energy to wade through that particular thread that just keeps on giving....

 

[Charleston Mountie]

And I'll beat a different dead horse again! And for the record I'm no 'Danapologist' or whatever the hell the board Is calling It now...This if TCU can do it shtick is old....2008 #7 rank end of season after beating Boise St in Poinsettia. 2009 lost to Boise St after going 12-0. 2010 Beat B-10 champ Whisky in the Rose Bowl to go undefeated, 2011 Poinsettia bowl win again and #16 rank end of season...so go on and tell me how we're just the same going into B-12 membership, or better yet accuse me of being some TCU shill...it doesn't change the fact that they were one helluva football program before entrance to the B12...

Alright, here is my take on it...

I started my WVU/TCU comparison with the 2005 season since that is the first season for TCU in MWC the previous conference for them until they moved to the Big-12 for the 2011 along with WVU. This comparison covers an 11 year period:

Gary Patterson has been the TCU head coach throughout this comparison span while WVU Rich for 3 years, 3 years for Bill, 1 year where Bill and Dana had the confusing and chaotic overlap and then 3 years for Dana solo.

2005-2007
*2005 was the last year of 11 game seasons, beginning in 2006 12 game seasons became the standard.

WVU-Rich Rodriguez
2005 - overall 11-1; 1st in Big East, beat Georgia; final rank AP #5
2006 - overall 11-2; 2nd in Big East, beat Georgia Tech; final rank AP #10
2007 - overall 11-2; 1st in Big East, beat Oklahoma, final rank AP #6

TCU-Gary Patterson
2005 - overall 11-1; 1st in MWC, beat Iowa State; final rank AP #11
2006 - overall 11-2; 2nd in MWC, beat Northern Illinois; final rank AP #22
2007 - overall 8-5; 5th in MWC, beat Houston; final rank AP # Unranked

At this point WVU is ahead of TCU in every category. TCU is beating middling teams or those from non BCS conferences while WVU has faced 2 conference champs (SEC and Big-12) as well as the ACC runner up and beaten them all. TCU actually nose-dives in the 3rd comparison year, but that was also the RICH trash-fest and train wreck at the end of the season.

2008-2010
WVU-Bill Stewart
2008 - overall 9-4, 3rd in Big East, beat UNC, final rank AP #23
2009 - overall 9-4, 2nd in Big East, lost to FSU, final rank AP #25
2010 - overall 9-4, 2nd in Big East, lost to NC State, final rank # Unranked

TCU-Gary Patterson
2008 - overall 11-2, 2nd in MWC, beat Boise State, final rank AP #7
2009 - overall 12-1, 1st in MWC, lost to Boise State, final rank AP #6
2010 - overall 13-0, 1st in MWC, beat Wisconsin, final rank AP #3 (3 1st place votes)

It is obvious that Bill Stewart was not getting the job down. With virtually the same team that was in the national title in 2007 hunt under Rich's last season, Bill Stewart got lost and was out coached in many games. Now it is TCU beating some hot teams while WVU is losing to mediocre teams.

2011 - the OMG what was WVU thinking year
WVU-Bill Stewart and Dana Holgorsen in a chaotic bitter relationship spread across the news papers
2011 - overall 10-3, 1st in Big East, crushed Clemson, final rank AP #17

TCU-Gary Patterson
2011 - overall 11-2, 1st in MWC, beat Louisiana Tech, final rank AP #14

The next seasons are the Big-12 years for both teams:
2012-2015

WVU-Dana Holgorsen
2012 - overall 7-6, 8th in Big-12, lost to Syracuse, final rank AP # Unranked
2013 - overall 4-8, 8th in Big-12, no bowl, final rank AP # Unranked
2014 - overall 7-6, 5th in Big-12, lost to Texas A&M, final rank AP # Unranked
2015 - overall 8-5, 5th in Big-12, beat Arizona State, final rank AP # Unranked

TCU-Gary Patterson
2012 - overall 7-6, 6th in Big-12, lost to Michigan State, final rank AP # Unranked
2013 - overall 4-8, 7th in Big-12, no bowl, final rank AP # Unranked
2014 - overall 12-1, 2nd in Big-12, beat Ole Miss, final rank AP #3
2015 - overall 11-2, 3rd in Big-12, beat Oregon, final rank AP #7

Conclusions:

Rich Rodriguez was a batter coach than was Gary Patterson in the years Rich was at WVU, but the difference was not that great. Patterson seems to have gotten better and Rich's success since he left WVU has been spotty to average. Comparing WVUs run under Rich to Patterson's run 2008-2010 run we get WVU 33-5 compared to TCU 36-3 which is fairly comparable. Comparing the contrast from those years, Bills 3 years is WVU 27-12 and Patterson's years of 2005-2007 at TCU 30-8.

Totals for that period are WVU 60-17 & TCU 66-11. It must be pointed out that WVU was facing 3 or 4 ranked teams per year during this time, while TCU was often facing 1 or none until their bowl game. The MWC was much inferior to the Big East in this time frame and so comparable records indicate WVU is doing as well against tougher competition. That should imply that WVU is better prepared for life in the Big-12 than is TCU.

Now the final period...

WVU and TCU have identical over all records their first two years in the Big-12 but TCU always held the tie breaker because WVU lost to them both times. The next two years is a world of difference; WVU goes15-11 and TCU runs 23-3.

Some will argue that TCU is getting Texas recruits. I am sure they are, but haven't they always been getting them? Texas and aTm can only snag so many before TCU and Baylor etc. snap up the rest, that did not suddenly change when TCU entered the Big-12. TCU's coach is the game throughout this comparison so that is a stable factor whereas WVU has 3 coaches. Rich was better, but only slightly, Bill was less than Patterson and Dana would appear to be even inferior to Bill Stewart, much less Gary Patterson.

Draw your won conclusions as I have. WVU is where it is because we have a head coach that took over for a guy that really was lucky to be an assistant, but that also Dana is employed at the wrong level of college football. He is an even less qualified Power Conference coach than Bill Stewart was, but we assume that Bill Stewart would remain stable in the Big-12, when some of us believe he would have performed just as poorly as Dana Holgorsen has done.

 

[Mountain Man]

1 thing I give credit for Dana over Stew is that Dana was able to demote his buddy DeForest when the D was horrible in 2012 unlike Stew who hired and kept that clown Jeff Mullin who was never a coordinator in his life before arriving at WVU. Stew's biggest flaw was his OC hiring and keeping when the O went south with PW as our QB. I remember a caller once said to Mullin is that "He was given the keys to a Porche and turned it in to a Pinto"

 

[mofo]

Nice...

this about the time that i remind the fan base
Bill Stewart had a 70% winning percent...

wonder if the fan base would take a 70%
, now
verses how a coach runs a press conference?

 

[dogeered_again]

Alright, here is my take on it...

I started my WVU/TCU comparison with the 2005 season since that is the first season for TCU in MWC the previous conference for them until they moved to the Big-12 for the 2011 along with WVU. This comparison covers an 11 year period:

Gary Patterson has been the TCU head coach throughout this comparison span while WVU Rich for 3 years, 3 years for Bill, 1 year where Bill and Dana had the confusing and chaotic overlap and then 3 years for Dana solo.

2005-2007
*2005 was the last year of 11 game seasons, beginning in 2006 12 game seasons became the standard.

WVU-Rich Rodriguez
2005 - overall 11-1; 1st in Big East, beat Georgia; final rank AP #5
2006 - overall 11-2; 2nd in Big East, beat Georgia Tech; final rank AP #10
2007 - overall 11-2; 1st in Big East, beat Oklahoma, final rank AP #6


That was a very thorough analysis and well thought out. So... I guess you couldn't sleep last night!!?? The one element you left out is the AD turnover and direction(s) we've taken over that same time frame. I hated Pasthistime; really like Oliver; ...and Lyons scares the crap out of me. Does he even come to work every day?
TCU-Gary Patterson
2005 - overall 11-1; 1st in MWC, beat Iowa State; final rank AP #11
2006 - overall 11-2; 2nd in MWC, beat Northern Illinois; final rank AP #22
2007 - overall 8-5; 5th in MWC, beat Houston; final rank AP # Unranked

At this point WVU is ahead of TCU in every category. TCU is beating middling teams or those from non BCS conferences while WVU has faced 2 conference champs (SEC and Big-12) as well as the ACC runner up and beaten them all. TCU actually nose-dives in the 3rd comparison year, but that was also the RICH trash-fest and train wreck at the end of the season.

2008-2010
WVU-Bill Stewart
2008 - overall 9-4, 3rd in Big East, beat UNC, final rank AP #23
2009 - overall 9-4, 2nd in Big East, lost to FSU, final rank AP #25
2010 - overall 9-4, 2nd in Big East, lost to NC State, final rank # Unranked

TCU-Gary Patterson
2008 - overall 11-2, 2nd in MWC, beat Boise State, final rank AP #7
2009 - overall 12-1, 1st in MWC, lost to Boise State, final rank AP #6
2010 - overall 13-0, 1st in MWC, beat Wisconsin, final rank AP #3 (3 1st place votes)

It is obvious that Bill Stewart was not getting the job down. With virtually the same team that was in the national title in 2007 hunt under Rich's last season, Bill Stewart got lost and was out coached in many games. Now it is TCU beating some hot teams while WVU is losing to mediocre teams.

2011 - the OMG what was WVU thinking year
WVU-Bill Stewart and Dana Holgorsen in a chaotic bitter relationship spread across the news papers
2011 - overall 10-3, 1st in Big East, crushed Clemson, final rank AP #17

TCU-Gary Patterson
2011 - overall 11-2, 1st in MWC, beat Louisiana Tech, final rank AP #14

The next seasons are the Big-12 years for both teams:
2012-2015

WVU-Dana Holgorsen
2012 - overall 7-6, 8th in Big-12, lost to Syracuse, final rank AP # Unranked
2013 - overall 4-8, 8th in Big-12, no bowl, final rank AP # Unranked
2014 - overall 7-6, 5th in Big-12, lost to Texas A&M, final rank AP # Unranked
2015 - overall 8-5, 5th in Big-12, beat Arizona State, final rank AP # Unranked

TCU-Gary Patterson
2012 - overall 7-6, 6th in Big-12, lost to Michigan State, final rank AP # Unranked
2013 - overall 4-8, 7th in Big-12, no bowl, final rank AP # Unranked
2014 - overall 12-1, 2nd in Big-12, beat Ole Miss, final rank AP #3
2015 - overall 11-2, 3rd in Big-12, beat Oregon, final rank AP #7

Conclusions:

Rich Rodriguez was a batter coach than was Gary Patterson in the years Rich was at WVU, but the difference was not that great. Patterson seems to have gotten better and Rich's success since he left WVU has been spotty to average. Comparing WVUs run under Rich to Patterson's run 2008-2010 run we get WVU 33-5 compared to TCU 36-3 which is fairly comparable. Comparing the contrast from those years, Bills 3 years is WVU 27-12 and Patterson's years of 2005-2007 at TCU 30-8.

Totals for that period are WVU 60-17 & TCU 66-11. It must be pointed out that WVU was facing 3 or 4 ranked teams per year during this time, while TCU was often facing 1 or none until their bowl game. The MWC was much inferior to the Big East in this time frame and so comparable records indicate WVU is doing as well against tougher competition. That should imply that WVU is better prepared for life in the Big-12 than is TCU.

Now the final period...

WVU and TCU have identical over all records their first two years in the Big-12 but TCU always held the tie breaker because WVU lost to them both times. The next two years is a world of difference; WVU goes15-11 and TCU runs 23-3.

Some will argue that TCU is getting Texas recruits. I am sure they are, but haven't they always been getting them? Texas and aTm can only snag so many before TCU and Baylor etc. snap up the rest, that did not suddenly change when TCU entered the Big-12. TCU's coach is the game throughout this comparison so that is a stable factor whereas WVU has 3 coaches. Rich was better, but only slightly, Bill was less than Patterson and Dana would appear to be even inferior to Bill Stewart, much less Gary Patterson.

Draw your won conclusions as I have. WVU is where it is because we have a head coach that took over for a guy that really was lucky to be an assistant, but that also Dana is employed at the wrong level of college football. He is an even less qualified Power Conference coach than Bill Stewart was, but we assume that Bill Stewart would remain stable in the Big-12, when some of us believe he would have performed just as poorly as Dana Holgorsen has done.

 

[Boomboom521]

Bill Stewart was a good ol boy. He inherited a senior team, and solid recruiting classes. He then failed to improve on anything. Our coaching staff, recruiting classes, and record began to slip under Bill.

His death and Dana's failures tend to make people see him as better than he actually was as a coach. It was a horrible hire, and Luck made a bad decision with the head coach in waiting because he was aware that the fans felt connected to Bill "the good ol boy".

Dana has failed, I'm not arguing against that at all. He did however inherent a team with questionable leadership (Geno is no leader), some bad recruiting classes, and an atmosphere of negativity about the future (in the recruiting world). It's been an uphill battle for him, and he's not winning. That being said....I do think he has the ability to make us all eat our words soon. Never know.

But stop comparing! TCU had momentum the ability to spend less and recruit more talent, and continuity!

 

[Cuyahoga Falls Eers]

The T in TCU stands for Texas! I hear there are a lot of pretty good players in that state. Talent has a lot to do with our programs state, and state has a lot to do with talent.

Rich Rodriguez did a pretty good job without having a T in the state name.

HELL, even without an F in the state name. But got players for the F state, too.

Excuses are our best product. As Nike says, just do it.

 

[Cuyahoga Falls Eers]

Alright, here is my take on it...

I started my WVU/TCU comparison with the 2005 season since that is the first season for TCU in MWC the previous conference for them until they moved to the Big-12 for the 2011 along with WVU. This comparison covers an 11 year period:

Gary Patterson has been the TCU head coach throughout this comparison span while WVU Rich for 3 years, 3 years for Bill, 1 year where Bill and Dana had the confusing and chaotic overlap and then 3 years for Dana solo.

2005-2007
*2005 was the last year of 11 game seasons, beginning in 2006 12 game seasons became the standard.

WVU-Rich Rodriguez
2005 - overall 11-1; 1st in Big East, beat Georgia; final rank AP #5
2006 - overall 11-2; 2nd in Big East, beat Georgia Tech; final rank AP #10
2007 - overall 11-2; 1st in Big East, beat Oklahoma, final rank AP #6

TCU-Gary Patterson
2005 - overall 11-1; 1st in MWC, beat Iowa State; final rank AP #11
2006 - overall 11-2; 2nd in MWC, beat Northern Illinois; final rank AP #22
2007 - overall 8-5; 5th in MWC, beat Houston; final rank AP # Unranked

At this point WVU is ahead of TCU in every category. TCU is beating middling teams or those from non BCS conferences while WVU has faced 2 conference champs (SEC and Big-12) as well as the ACC runner up and beaten them all. TCU actually nose-dives in the 3rd comparison year, but that was also the RICH trash-fest and train wreck at the end of the season.

2008-2010
WVU-Bill Stewart
2008 - overall 9-4, 3rd in Big East, beat UNC, final rank AP #23
2009 - overall 9-4, 2nd in Big East, lost to FSU, final rank AP #25
2010 - overall 9-4, 2nd in Big East, lost to NC State, final rank # Unranked

TCU-Gary Patterson
2008 - overall 11-2, 2nd in MWC, beat Boise State, final rank AP #7
2009 - overall 12-1, 1st in MWC, lost to Boise State, final rank AP #6
2010 - overall 13-0, 1st in MWC, beat Wisconsin, final rank AP #3 (3 1st place votes)

It is obvious that Bill Stewart was not getting the job down. With virtually the same team that was in the national title in 2007 hunt under Rich's last season, Bill Stewart got lost and was out coached in many games. Now it is TCU beating some hot teams while WVU is losing to mediocre teams.

2011 - the OMG what was WVU thinking year
WVU-Bill Stewart and Dana Holgorsen in a chaotic bitter relationship spread across the news papers
2011 - overall 10-3, 1st in Big East, crushed Clemson, final rank AP #17

TCU-Gary Patterson
2011 - overall 11-2, 1st in MWC, beat Louisiana Tech, final rank AP #14

The next seasons are the Big-12 years for both teams:
2012-2015

WVU-Dana Holgorsen
2012 - overall 7-6, 8th in Big-12, lost to Syracuse, final rank AP # Unranked
2013 - overall 4-8, 8th in Big-12, no bowl, final rank AP # Unranked
2014 - overall 7-6, 5th in Big-12, lost to Texas A&M, final rank AP # Unranked
2015 - overall 8-5, 5th in Big-12, beat Arizona State, final rank AP # Unranked

TCU-Gary Patterson
2012 - overall 7-6, 6th in Big-12, lost to Michigan State, final rank AP # Unranked
2013 - overall 4-8, 7th in Big-12, no bowl, final rank AP # Unranked
2014 - overall 12-1, 2nd in Big-12, beat Ole Miss, final rank AP #3
2015 - overall 11-2, 3rd in Big-12, beat Oregon, final rank AP #7

Conclusions:

Rich Rodriguez was a batter coach than was Gary Patterson in the years Rich was at WVU, but the difference was not that great. Patterson seems to have gotten better and Rich's success since he left WVU has been spotty to average. Comparing WVUs run under Rich to Patterson's run 2008-2010 run we get WVU 33-5 compared to TCU 36-3 which is fairly comparable. Comparing the contrast from those years, Bills 3 years is WVU 27-12 and Patterson's years of 2005-2007 at TCU 30-8.

Totals for that period are WVU 60-17 & TCU 66-11. It must be pointed out that WVU was facing 3 or 4 ranked teams per year during this time, while TCU was often facing 1 or none until their bowl game. The MWC was much inferior to the Big East in this time frame and so comparable records indicate WVU is doing as well against tougher competition. That should imply that WVU is better prepared for life in the Big-12 than is TCU.

Now the final period...

WVU and TCU have identical over all records their first two years in the Big-12 but TCU always held the tie breaker because WVU lost to them both times. The next two years is a world of difference; WVU goes15-11 and TCU runs 23-3.

Some will argue that TCU is getting Texas recruits. I am sure they are, but haven't they always been getting them? Texas and aTm can only snag so many before TCU and Baylor etc. snap up the rest, that did not suddenly change when TCU entered the Big-12. TCU's coach is the game throughout this comparison so that is a stable factor whereas WVU has 3 coaches. Rich was better, but only slightly, Bill was less than Patterson and Dana would appear to be even inferior to Bill Stewart, much less Gary Patterson.

Draw your won conclusions as I have. WVU is where it is because we have a head coach that took over for a guy that really was lucky to be an assistant, but that also Dana is employed at the wrong level of college football. He is an even less qualified Power Conference coach than Bill Stewart was, but we assume that Bill Stewart would remain stable in the Big-12, when some of us believe he would have performed just as poorly as Dana Holgorsen has done.

Good analysis that doesn't cherry-pick to fit an agenda. TCU did it; WVU did not. That is indisputable. The excuse means that WVU can never do it because it isn't in Texas. Oklahoma isn't either but is pretty damn good.

 

[Charleston Mountie]

Good analysis that doesn't cherry-pick to fit an agenda. TCU did it; WVU did not. That is indisputable. The excuse means that WVU can never do it because it isn't in Texas. Oklahoma isn't either but is pretty damn good.

Thank you. This subject brings out the crazy in all of us from time-to-time and it is nice to pull back on that lever and bring out some facts to get back on track.

I was never a Rich fan, not because of what he did on the field but how he conducted himself off the field. WVU managed Rich the wrong way and Rich let himself become more important than his teams. He saw himself as king of a dynasty but forgot he had to build a dynasty and a few years does not a dynasty make. When WVU did not fawn over him, he got petulant and made the worse decision of his coaching career - perhaps two. I am one of those that question his coaching motives in the Pitt game. But, either way, his choice to leave WVU has been seen to have been a poor one, although Rita was made happy.

But, nothing can take away his success and he is the benchmark for the next coach and the next coach until someone does better than Rich did. Of course the only thing Rich failed to do is win a NC at WVU so that is the goal of the next coach - not just pull in 75% records each season. Rich set the bar and the contingent on his bandwagon will not behave until they get a guy that can reach for and snag a star.

 

[ThePunish-EER]

Good analysis that doesn't cherry-pick to fit an agenda. TCU did it; WVU did not. That is indisputable. The excuse means that WVU can never do it because it isn't in Texas. Oklahoma isn't either but is pretty damn good.

lmao Oklahoma is a blue blood!! WVU is not Oklahoma for god sakes. They pull their kids from Texas because they border Texas. WVU borders western PA. Western PA used to be a great supplier of talent to WVU. That talent pipeline has dried up. Western PA isn't what it used to be. And it was NEVER on the level of Texas either. Get it together.

 

[Charleston Mountie]

lmao Oklahoma is a blue blood!! WVU is not Oklahoma for god sakes. They pull their kids from Texas because they border Texas. WVU borders western PA. Western PA used to be a great supplier of talent to WVU. That talent pipeline has dried up. Western PA isn't what it used to be. And it was NEVER on the level of Texas either. Get it together.

Oklahoma pulls recruits from Texas because they recruit them. If they were five states away they would still recruit Texas. Your point has no basis. If WVU is only recruiting western PA it deserves to be demoted to G5 status. The field that WVU has to recruit within has never changed. Don could recruit, Rich could recruit, Bill was poor at it and Dana is even worse.

 

[michaelwalkerbr]

I will quote Bobby Bowden one last time during his glory years. "Give me one great player and a bunch of good players and I will compete for championships." WVU has a bunch of 'good' players, but let's see if they can produce the next great player. What could last year have been with a Pat White, Geno Smith, Major Harris or Marc Bulger?

A wide open spring practice with every position up for grabs is a start. A real spring game as promised at the Greenbrier is also promising. The ingredients are there, I'm just not sure Coach Holgorsen has the foresight to pull it off. He'd better have though, it's his last chance. Many will be surprised at the quality of the DB coach about to be hired.

 

[Boomboom521]

Rich Rodriguez did a pretty good job without having a T in the state name.

HELL, even without an F in the state name. But got players for the F state, too.

Excuses are our best product. As Nike says, just do it.

Don't act like Pat White and Steve Slaton were 5 star guys.....things lined up, two greats took advantage, and a good coach capitalized. No excuses, I said Dana is failing, but give him athletes like the Christian Horny Frogs have, and he would have a better record for sure. A 3 star in Texas is like a 4-5 star in most states. Florida is close, but still not as deep as the lone star state.

 

[michaelwalkerbr]

If WVU would have had a true gunslinger last year, 10 wins at least.

 

[Charleston Mountie]

Don't act like Pat White and Steve Slaton were 5 star guys.....things lined up, two greats took advantage, and a good coach capitalized. No excuses, I said Dana is failing, but give him athletes like the Christian Horny Frogs have, and he would have a better record for sure. A 3 star in Texas is like a 4-5 star in most states. Florida is close, but still not as deep as the lone star state.

Its Dana's job to get those good athletes. Pat and Steve were not 5 stars but they were recruits that had what we wanted or we hoped they had what we wanted. Don did the same thing; taking average guys and making them so much more. Pat and Steve were better than average but not regarded as the best. Rich tailored the offense around their skills and tore off 3 11-win seasons at the end. That was not an accident.

A 5 star recruit that doesn't work in your system is pointless and most 5 stars aren't worth the effort it takes to get them. Their heads are so full of stars and dollar signs they don't see their college team as anything but a stepping stone. I prefer 3 stars that want the job.

If WVU swapped rosters with TCU, we would be just as bad off. It doesn't matter what gun is in the holster if the coach can't see the target. Dana is out of his element.

 

[michaelwalkerbr]

Its Dana's job to get those good athletes. Pat and Steve were not 5 stars but they were recruits that had what we wanted or we hoped they had what we wanted. Don did the same thing; taking average guys and making them so much more. Pat and Steve were better than average but not regarded as the best. Rich tailored the offense around their skills and tore off 3 11-win seasons at the end. That was not an accident.

A 5 star recruit that doesn't work in your system is pointless and most 5 stars aren't worth the effort it takes to get them. Their heads are so full of stars and dollar signs they don't see their college team as anything but a stepping stone. I prefer 3 stars that want the job.

If WVU swapped rosters with TCU, we would be just as bad off. It doesn't matter what gun is in the holster if the coach can't see the target. Dana is out of his element.

I don't entirely disagree with that but tell me, in each of WVU's losses last season, if you switched the QBs and the play callers from one team to the other, who wins? Seriously. I'm talking about Baker Mayfield starting for WVU and Skyler Howard for Oklahoma. Who wins?

 

[ThePunish-EER]

Its Dana's job to get those good athletes. Pat and Steve were not 5 stars but they were recruits that had what we wanted or we hoped they had what we wanted. Don did the same thing; taking average guys and making them so much more. Pat and Steve were better than average but not regarded as the best. Rich tailored the offense around their skills and tore off 3 11-win seasons at the end. That was not an accident.

A 5 star recruit that doesn't work in your system is pointless and most 5 stars aren't worth the effort it takes to get them. Their heads are so full of stars and dollar signs they don't see their college team as anything but a stepping stone. I prefer 3 stars that want the job.

If WVU swapped rosters with TCU, we would be just as bad off. It doesn't matter what gun is in the holster if the coach can't see the target. Dana is out of his element.

you are out of your element. When are you guys gonna realize the significant upgrade in competition? Nehlen averaged 7 wins in a much weaker conference. His 1-2 star guys would get killed in the big 12. Sure he made some good ones great. But at this level, one or 2 greats surrounded by guys barely average or below will not win in this league. It's about depth. Lots of depth to make it through an entire season in the big 12. It's a lot easier playing a weak regular season to get up for a bowl than to play a murderers row regular season to get up for another heavy weight in a bowl. Reason? Injuries. Players get wore down.

 

[Boomboom521]

If WVU would have had a true gunslinger last year, 10 wins at least.

Agreed. Dana needs a smart, athletic QB with a strong arm.

Its Dana's job to get those good athletes. Pat and Steve were not 5 stars but they were recruits that had what we wanted or we hoped they had what we wanted. Don did the same thing; taking average guys and making them so much more. Pat and Steve were better than average but not regarded as the best. Rich tailored the offense around their skills and tore off 3 11-win seasons at the end. That was not an accident.

A 5 star recruit that doesn't work in your system is pointless and most 5 stars aren't worth the effort it takes to get them. Their heads are so full of stars and dollar signs they don't see their college team as anything but a stepping stone. I prefer 3 stars that want the job.

If WVU swapped rosters with TCU, we would be just as bad off. It doesn't matter what gun is in the holster if the coach can't see the target. Dana is out of his element.

My point is that I'd prefer those 3 stars too......from Texas. And lots of them....which is what TCU is working with. The have depth, and they have competition on the chart. Honestly, I think Dana is getting there, although SLOWLY, however he does have a lot working against him. I LOVE my home state, but wvu isn't the most appealing place in winter. The facilities have been on par with Big East schools, we are finally changing this problem. And Danas biggest problem since taking over: no continuity! Gibson is our 4th d coordinator under Dana, that's not good for recruiting. That's on Dana!

But to compare to Dandy Don?.....different time, when playing against Pitt and Penn State motivated players to pick (or transfer) to WVU. When defenses were good, but basic. On and on.....ALSO REMEMBER DON LOST 8 STRAIGHT BOWL GAMES!

And TCU is recruiting in Texas, spending less and covering more players in the recruiting process. Appealing to some recruits, because it's close to home.[/QUOTE]

 

[VaultHunter]

Nice...

this about the time that i remind the fan base
Bill Stewart had a 70% winning percent...

wonder if the fan base would take a 70%
, now
verses how a coach runs a press conference?

Don't forget to remind everyone that Stewart coached WVU while it was in a watered down Big East and had losses to UConn, Colorado and ECU and racked up most of his wins against mediocre competition. I will take Dana's winning percentage over Stewart's any day based on WVU'S level of competition. Dana doesn't have 1 loss as bad as any loss WVU suffered under Stewart including Kansas. Kansas has a better football history than any team Stewart lost too.

 

[Charleston Mountie]

Agreed. Dana needs a smart, athletic QB with a strong arm.





My point is that I'd prefer those 3 stars too......from Texas. And lots of them....which is what TCU is working with. The have depth, and they have competition on the chart. Honestly, I think Dana is getting there, although SLOWLY, however he does have a lot working against him. I LOVE my home state, but wvu isn't the most appealing place in winter. The facilities have been on par with Big East schools, we are finally changing this problem. And Danas biggest problem since taking over: no continuity! Gibson is our 4th d coordinator under Dana, that's not good for recruiting. That's on Dana!

But to compare to Dandy Don?.....different time, when playing against Pitt and Penn State motivated players to pick (or transfer) to WVU. When defenses were good, but basic. On and on.....ALSO REMEMBER DON LOST 8 STRAIGHT BOWL GAMES!

And TCU is recruiting in Texas, spending less and covering more players in the recruiting process. Appealing to some recruits, because it's close to home.

[/QUOTE]

We seem to be saying the same thing to an extent but coming to a different conclusion. Yes it cost less for TCU to send recruiters on the road in Texas but it has always been the case. When you run a comparative, you drop out the common factors and focus on those in transition. TCU having always recruited in Texas is a moot point. Many schools recruit in Texas, just as many recruit in Florida. Schools in those states have an advantage but it is monetary and only sometimes sentimentality and never the edge others like to place on it.

If I am ranked a 3-star in the state of Texas I am probably pretty far down the list or at least lost in a sea of many potentials. For the last year I saw comparative data on, 2013, the top 5 states in producing recruits were:

341 - Texas
322 - Florida
232 - California
158 - Georgia
152 - Ohio

A 3-star recruit in Texas has almost no chance of going to ANY Texas school. If Texas, TCU, Baylor, Texas Tech, Texas A&M only recruit in Texas and each take on a full class of 25 that still leaves 216 recruits, all of which are 3-star or less. There may even be a few 4s scattered among them. Of course those 5 schools do not only recruit in Texas and therefore there are 3s and 4s open to many schools not sitting in Texas. Oklahoma gets many, so do many schools in the SEC and Big Ten and Pac-12 and other schools in the Big-12. Somehow WVU seems to be missing the boat. I wonder whose fault that is?

You are making a basic mistake though. Love your home state, love its people have passion for its institutions, but it is rare that any one individual is worthy of that love and certainly not a coach born elsewhere who will not look back after their time here is over. Love your coach for his own worth, not just because he is the coach of a team that matters more to you than nearly anything else in your life. Love your team, at best respect or admire your coach, but do not think he is the team. On those rare occasions the university gets a coach that is "all in" on what it means to be West Virginia, whether he is born or not, then you can share the love of everything of WVU with him, but even he only deserves respect and admiration.

 

[Charleston Mountie]

you are out of your element. When are you guys gonna realize the significant upgrade in competition? Nehlen averaged 7 wins in a much weaker conference. His 1-2 star guys would get killed in the big 12. Sure he made some good ones great. But at this level, one or 2 greats surrounded by guys barely average or below will not win in this league. It's about depth. Lots of depth to make it through an entire season in the big 12. It's a lot easier playing a weak regular season to get up for a bowl than to play a murderers row regular season to get up for another heavy weight in a bowl. Reason? Injuries. Players get wore down.

Blah, blah, blah - you prattle on and on and never say anything. I am sure I look like I am out of my element to you because you have no idea how to discuss any of this with any knowledge or experience. All you are armed with is an agenda powered by misplaced and even more misunderstood emotions. No one can take you seriously, I certainly do not.

 

[ThePunish-EER]

Blah, blah, blah - you prattle on and on and never say anything. I am sure I look like I am out of my element to you because you have no idea how to discuss any of this with any knowledge or experience. All you are armed with is an agenda powered by misplaced and even more misunderstood emotions. No one can take you seriously, I certainly do not.

never say anything? I just provided the truth. Sorry your agenda can't handle it.

 

[Boomboom521]

I do love my alma mater, and one of the biggest representatives of my beautiful state, and that is my point. Let's be objective....Dana still might develop a winning program. Rod was a really good coach (might go down as a great one in the end), and he bolted on us right when we were establishing our stake as a national power program. Truth is.....we are NOT a national power program! TCU wasn't either, and now they have pretty much just established themselves as a power program. With that designation, everything gets easier and you can reload and compete every year. After Bill, Dana had to build our rep all over again.....he is failing at it right now, but the depth is building. We will see.....

 

[Charleston Mountie]

Don't forget to remind everyone that Stewart coached WVU while it was in a watered down Big East and had losses to UConn, Colorado and ECU and racked up most of his wins against mediocre competition. I will take Dana's winning percentage over Stewart's any day based on WVU'S level of competition. Dana doesn't have 1 loss as bad as any loss WVU suffered under Stewart including Kansas. Kansas has a better football history than any team Stewart lost too.

The same schools were in the Big East when Rich was crushing them from 2005-2007 as there were in Bill's years of 2008-2010. But was the Big East watered down? I don't think so. Rich went 17-4 and Bill went 15-6 in those periods.

Rich's OOCs W/Ls:
2005
Wins - Wofford; East Carolina;
Losses - #3 Virginia Tech

2006
Wins - Marshall; Eastern Washington; Maryland, East Carolina; Mississippi State
Losses - none

2007
Wins - Western Michigan; Marshall; Maryland; East Carolina; Mississippi State
Losses - none

Bill's OOC W/Ls:
2008
Wins - Villanova; Marshall
Losses - unranked East Carolina; unranked Colorado

2009
Wins - Liberty; East Carolina; Colorado
Losses - unranked Auburn
2010
Wins - Coastal Carolina; Marshall; Maryland; UNLV
Losses - #15 LSU

You state: "Dana doesn't have 1 loss as bad as any loss WVU suffered under Stewart including Kansas. Kansas has a better football history than any team Stewart lost too."

Are you saying that Kansas has a better football history than East Carolina, Colorado, Auburn and LSU?

Dana's OOC W/Ls:
2012
Wins - Marshall; Maryland; James Madison
Losses - none

2013
Wins - William & Mary; Georgia State
Losses - unranked Maryland

2014
Wins - Towson; Maryland
Losses - #2 Alabama

2015
Wins - Georgia Southern; Liberty; Maryland

IMO Bill's worst loss was in or out of conference was to 5-7 Colorado and Dana's losses worse than that in or out of conference are 3-9 Iowa State and 3-9 Kansas - back-to-back.


Neither Bill nor Dana are qualified to be a head coach at this level and their records back it up. Saying one is worse than the other is academic since both are unacceptable for the needs of WVU.

 

[Charleston Mountie]

I don't entirely disagree with that but tell me, in each of WVU's losses last season, if you switched the QBs and the play callers from one team to the other, who wins? Seriously. I'm talking about Baker Mayfield starting for WVU and Skyler Howard for Oklahoma. Who wins?

It doesn't matter if you are behind the wheel of a Porsche or a Ford F150 at the raceway. If you can't drive, you are going no where fast. Dana can't coach, regardless of the quality under his command.

Remember the Pitt game in 2007? Rich had his best guys ever and lost to a HORRIBLE Pitt team. What changed? Rich did. Why he did what he did is up to debate, but it is the coach that matters a lot more than the players. We see it often at many schools. A new coach comes in and does wonders with last year's losers. We have also seen the reverse, Bill came into his first season with the previous seasons national contenders and went ho-hum.

 

[Darth_VadEER]

The same schools were in the Big East when Rich was crushing them from 2005-2007 as there were in Bill's years of 2008-2010. But was the Big East watered down? I don't think so. Rich went 17-4 and Bill went 15-6 in those periods.

Rich's OOCs W/Ls:
2005
Wins - Wofford; East Carolina;
Losses - #3 Virginia Tech

2006
Wins - Marshall; Eastern Washington; Maryland, East Carolina; Mississippi State
Losses - none

2007
Wins - Western Michigan; Marshall; Maryland; East Carolina; Mississippi State
Losses - none

Bill's OOC W/Ls:
2008
Wins - Villanova; Marshall
Losses - unranked East Carolina; unranked Colorado

2009
Wins - Liberty; East Carolina; Colorado
Losses - unranked Auburn
2010
Wins - Coastal Carolina; Marshall; Maryland; UNLV
Losses - #15 LSU

You state: "Dana doesn't have 1 loss as bad as any loss WVU suffered under Stewart including Kansas. Kansas has a better football history than any team Stewart lost too."

Are you saying that Kansas has a better football history than East Carolina, Colorado, Auburn and LSU?

Dana's OOC W/Ls:
2012
Wins - Marshall; Maryland; James Madison
Losses - none

2013
Wins - William & Mary; Georgia State
Losses - unranked Maryland

2014
Wins - Towson; Maryland
Losses - #2 Alabama

2015
Wins - Georgia Southern; Liberty; Maryland

IMO Bill's worst loss was in or out of conference was to 5-7 Colorado and Dana's losses worse than that in or out of conference are 3-9 Iowa State and 3-9 Kansas - back-to-back.


Neither Bill nor Dana are qualified to be a head coach at this level and their records back it up. Saying one is worse than the other is academic since both are unacceptable for the needs of WVU.

The Big East went down hill when they couldn't keep their premiere coaches, RR, Petrino, Dantonio, and Kelly. Wanny at Pitt wasnt the worst out there. Schiano was doing good things, Holtz was a promising hire at USF. Even Edsell had UCONN functioning at a competent level.

By the time we left the conference all those guys were gone or fired.

Those guys were good for the conference. When good coaches don't want to stick around, everything else goes with it.

The B1G is looking strong now, and it's because they have three high level, elite coaches with Meyers, Harbaugh and Dantonio.