Will Neal Brown

[Volatility]

Yes its three years in now, time to stop pretending Brown hasnt had years to gain players and do far better on his own. Yet and still the best players on the team TODAY come from the previous staffs efforts. Time for Brown and co to stop hiding and stand on their own. They are the ones hired to do a job And recruit and coach and have had years to do so at this pt.

I wonder why the players from the previous staff are the ones playing...... Its probably because Dana should replace Saban at Bama, and not because those players are the only experienced upperclassmen... Experience, Maturity, Growth, & development are all nominal compared to the great inspiring miraculous mind in November Holgorsen

 

[sword12]

volatility...we don't agree. Kneel Clown is tanking the program with statistical ineptitude.

I agree with you RootClown, I just don't make up silly names for NB like a 3rd grader. Next year 8 wins plus a bowl or he is gone. The portal should be his best friend need good players now to save his job IMO.

 

[Rootmaster]

I agree with you RootClown, I just don't make up silly names for NB like a 3rd grader. Next year 8 wins plus a bowl or he is gone. The portal should be his best friend need good players now to save his job IMO.

no...you just make them up for other posters. too funny.

 

[Cuyahoga Falls Eers]

Some would say it was just 2 seasons ago... If you had a graph that plotted roster quality(Talent & Experience) the past 2 seasons would be the two lowest/worst plots in the 21st century.

Logically speaking, while we may not agree on much, I think we can both agree that what a coach inherits is a major determining factor in their success in the first 2-4 years depending on the level of insufficiencies they inherited.

The magnitude of change required, determines the amount of time needed for correction. If any decent coach in P5 would miraculously become the HC for Bama next year, I bet he could win at least 10-11 games, on the talent alone. That said, he could still underperform, because under a quality coach he could squeeze 1-4 additional wins out of that talent.

I also think we can both agree, a staff can underperform relative to roster talent, just like they can outperform. That swings both ways. The roster is and will always be the primary factor in determining outcome or team quality. A staff can add or subtract a few wins from that base, so if you look at WVU roster, and using recruiting rankings based expectations of the players actually on the team, most of which he inherited, this staff has significantly outperformed since at WVU.

Time will tell if NB is the man to achieve realistic goals at WVU, which is to be a contender for a conference championship 1 in 3 years, and win >= 8 games per year, which is 1 higher then our historical average. Its to early to tell, considering the level of shit NB inherited, he deserves enough time to coach a team he recruited before we make a decision, as a fanbase to withdraw support. Thats not saying we dont have expectations of improvement, or to see progress on an annual basis, which we certainly have seen, particularly if you look beyond just Wins & Losses. JUst like how I dont blame Dana for Grier's two fumble 6's, I dont blame Brown for Doege's absolutely boneheaded game losing decisions. If Doege doesnt blow it vs OU/Terps/TTU we would not be having a discussion of progress, because we have been competitive in every game this year aside from Baylor & OkieSt, both of which are top 10 teams.

If after the 5th season is over and we continue to see the same issues, Ill be the first to say its time to move on, but until then, lets as a fanbase do everything we can to help this program & staff be successful, ultimately if you/we are truly fans we want to do whatever is best for the program, our loyalty is to WVU, not to any staff.

SO, NO MATTER HOW BAD A COACH DOES YOU WOULD PUT UP WITH IT FOR FIVE (5!) YEARS! MASOCIST!

 

[Pitt4Life34]

I wonder why the players from the previous staff are the ones playing...... Its probably because Dana should replace Saban at Bama, and not because those players are the only experienced upperclassmen... Experience, Maturity, Growth, & development are all nominal compared to the great inspiring miraculous mind in November Holgorsen

LOL! Dana says hello as coach of a Top 25 team 😂. Dana says see ya in a few years. The guy that tries to be the smartest guy in the room is always my favorite to fvck with. At the end of the day have a great Thanksgiving Day with your family.

Cheers.

 

[Buckaineer]

Agreed. Not defending Brown he’s been mediocre at best. Simply reminding those pining for Holgy about the mess he left the roster in.

Simply false to pretend Brown was left “ a mess”. He created the mess, WVU was doing well and improving til he arrived.

 

[WVUALLEN]

LOL! Dana says hello as coach of a Top 25 team 😂. Dana says see ya in a few years. The guy that tries to be the smartest guy in the room is always my favorite to fvck with. At the end of the day have a great Thanksgiving Day with your family.

Cheers.

Dana says thank God I have an easier schedule now. Plus in a few years I don't have to worry about playing against OU or TEXAS. But then again Texas leaving takes away an opportunity for a win for him.

 

[Volatility]

SO, NO MATTER HOW BAD A COACH DOES YOU WOULD PUT UP WITH IT FOR FIVE (5!) YEARS! MASOCIST!

No not at all, Ive said many times here that if its blatantly obvious situation where the coach is not P5 HC material, like a Willie Taggert or Jeremy Pruitt situation, where the staff is obviously under performing relative to roster talent & experience. Or one where a coach inherits a ready made contender where the previous staff recruited very well but lacked in the strategy & scheme dept and the experienced players just need to learn new terminology & concepts.

Thats not the case here with Brown, who inherited the worst WVU roster in the 21 century. If you use recruiting based expectations of the players he inherited, hes significantly outperforming. Combine that with his recruiting to resolve those problems and build the program the right way, those are the two main reasons why Im optimistic. That doesnt mean Im not a realist or want to see progress on an annual basis, but many people in this forum act as if Brown was handed a ready made 10 win team or an average WVU roster and that could not be farther from the truth. The primary limitations I see from this team are roster based, not coach based. The fact NB has managed to get this team to be competitive and in a position to win majority of games is miraculous, considering the extensive limitations & youth.

We will see in time what the ceiling is under Brown when he has time to resolve thos roster limitations, or the vast majority of them... Thats why I believe its far to early to feel either way, because any staff WVU could afford would have experienced the same issues & path to growth.

Also, if Doege doesnt make those boneheaded game losing mistakes, we would not be even having this discussion. The best schemes, staff, & player development in the world only goes so far, players still have to execute on a consistent basis and not make game losing mistakes.

 

[Volatility]

LOL! Dana says hello as coach of a Top 25 team 😂. Dana says see ya in a few years. The guy that tries to be the smartest guy in the room is always my favorite to fvck with. At the end of the day have a great Thanksgiving Day with your family.

Cheers.

You should work for CNN or the DNC since you are so poor at gaslighting.

 

[Jason Voorhees]

LOL! Dana says hello as coach of a Top 25 team 😂. Dana says see ya in a few years. The guy that tries to be the smartest guy in the room is always my favorite to fvck with. At the end of the day have a great Thanksgiving Day with your family.

Cheers.

Did you bother to look at the schedule Houston has played numb nuts? Don't worry Houston won't be ranked after they get blown out by cincy. They will also lose the bowl game in typical Dana style. There just as much of a joke as a team that is playing for a conference championship that can't beat western Michigan.

 

[Cuyahoga Falls Eers]

No not at all, Ive said many times here that if its blatantly obvious situation where the coach is not P5 HC material, like a Willie Taggert or Jeremy Pruitt situation, where the staff is obviously under performing relative to roster talent & experience. Or one where a coach inherits a ready made contender where the previous staff recruited very well but lacked in the strategy & scheme dept and the experienced players just need to learn new terminology & concepts.

Thats not the case here with Brown, who inherited the worst WVU roster in the 21 century. If you use recruiting based expectations of the players he inherited, hes significantly outperforming. Combine that with his recruiting to resolve those problems and build the program the right way, those are the two main reasons why Im optimistic. That doesnt mean Im not a realist or want to see progress on an annual basis, but many people in this forum act as if Brown was handed a ready made 10 win team or an average WVU roster and that could not be farther from the truth. The primary limitations I see from this team are roster based, not coach based. The fact NB has managed to get this team to be competitive and in a position to win majority of games is miraculous, considering the extensive limitations & youth.

We will see in time what the ceiling is under Brown when he has time to resolve thos roster limitations, or the vast majority of them... Thats why I believe its far to early to feel either way, because any staff WVU could afford would have experienced the same issues & path to growth.

Also, if Doege doesnt make those boneheaded game losing mistakes, we would not be even having this discussion. The best schemes, staff, & player development in the world only goes so far, players still have to execute on a consistent basis and not make game losing mistakes.

inherited the worst WVU roster in the 21 century.

The most common defense of Neal Brown is that he inherited a “terrible” roster. Volatility calls it the “worst roster of the 21st century.”
Let’s see if that’s true.
2018 roster, last one before Neal Brown, had
Freshman Bryce Ford-Wheaton, wide receiver
Freshman Leddie Brown, running back extraordinaire today
Freshman Jose Chandler-Semedo, linebacker
Sophomore Isaiah Esdale, wide receiver
Sophomore linebacker Dylan Tonkery
Sophomore safety Sean Mahone
Freshman kicker Casey Legg who rarely misses a field goal this season
Freshman Dante Stills defensive lineman
All available for Neal Brown to build on.
There are coaches who would give their right arm to have those players to build a team around.
Worst roster in 21st century? I don’t think so.

 

[Rootmaster]

CFE is right on this one. pains me to say that.

 

[Cuyahoga Falls Eers]

CFE is right on this one. pains me to say that.

EVEN A BLIND SQUIRREL FINDS AN ACORN EVERY NOW AND THEN, RIGHT? AS ALWAYS, I CHECK THE FACTS BEFORE I POST OR RESPOND. TOO BAD VOLATILITY DIDN'T.

 

[Jason Voorhees]

inherited the worst WVU roster in the 21 century.

The most common defense of Neal Brown is that he inherited a “terrible” roster. Volatility calls it the “worst roster of the 21st century.”
Let’s see if that’s true.
2018 roster, last one before Neal Brown, had
Freshman Bryce Ford-Wheaton, wide receiver
Freshman Leddie Brown, running back extraordinaire today
Freshman Jose Chandler-Semedo, linebacker
Sophomore Isaiah Esdale, wide receiver
Sophomore linebacker Dylan Tonkery
Sophomore safety Sean Mahone
Freshman kicker Casey Legg who rarely misses a field goal this season
Freshman Dante Stills defensive lineman
All available for Neal Brown to build on.
There are coaches who would give their right arm to have those players to build a team around.
Worst roster in 21st century? I don’t think so.

NB inherited the least amount of NFL Talent than any coach in the last 40 years its a fact. If you were a legit sportswriter you would know this. You were nothing but a small timer who wrote for a publication on the same level as the national enquirer.

 

[The Bell Tolls for Thee]

No not at all, Ive said many times here that if its blatantly obvious situation where the coach is not P5 HC material, like a Willie Taggert or Jeremy Pruitt situation, where the staff is obviously under performing relative to roster talent & experience. Or one where a coach inherits a ready made contender where the previous staff recruited very well but lacked in the strategy & scheme dept and the experienced players just need to learn new terminology & concepts.

Thats not the case here with Brown, who inherited the worst WVU roster in the 21 century. If you use recruiting based expectations of the players he inherited, hes significantly outperforming. Combine that with his recruiting to resolve those problems and build the program the right way, those are the two main reasons why Im optimistic. That doesnt mean Im not a realist or want to see progress on an annual basis, but many people in this forum act as if Brown was handed a ready made 10 win team or an average WVU roster and that could not be farther from the truth. The primary limitations I see from this team are roster based, not coach based. The fact NB has managed to get this team to be competitive and in a position to win majority of games is miraculous, considering the extensive limitations & youth.

We will see in time what the ceiling is under Brown when he has time to resolve thos roster limitations, or the vast majority of them... Thats why I believe its far to early to feel either way, because any staff WVU could afford would have experienced the same issues & path to growth.

Also, if Doege doesnt make those boneheaded game losing mistakes, we would not be even having this discussion. The best schemes, staff, & player development in the world only goes so far, players still have to execute on a consistent basis and not make game losing mistakes.

In the last 4 decades there have been coaches that inherited worse situations than WVU and pretty much all of the good ones didn't have 3 consecutive 6 or less win seasons. It's not purely a roster or coaching issue for WVU currently.

An example of a roster issue would be WVU vs Miami in 2002 at home. WVU stuck it out vs a team loaded with NFL talent for 3 quarters of the game before Miami pulled away. In that game you could see the plan and scheme WVU was trying to implement was good even with the lesser talent.

An example of a coaching issue would be WVU vs UConn in 2010 where WVU lost 16-13 against a team that gave up an average of 24.5 ppg vs every D1 school they played outside of WVU that year. This was a WVU team that had Tavon Austin, Stedman Bailey, Don Barclay, Scooter Berry, Jeff Braun, Darwin Cook, Noel Devine, Terrance Garvin, Najee Goode, Bruce Irvin, Josh Jenkins, Joe Madsen, Chris Neild, Jock Sanders, Geno Smith, Quinton Spain, Keith Tandy, and J.T Thomas. In this game you could see the scheme was the problem which was confirmed with how well the guys returning did in 2011.

It's highly unlikely that a coach will consistently fail to reach 6 wins and suddenly start getting 10 or more wins with the "right roster." And if he does, this coach will still consistently fail at WVU because it is not like the blue bloods or NFL where the coach can just pick and choose the players he wants. A successful WVU coach will always have to adapt to having less than ideal talent on the roster.

To your statement of Neal "overpreforming" with his roster, WVU was picked to finish 6th presason in the Big 12 this year. If WVU wins tomorrow it can still only finish 7th no matter how else the rest of the Big 12 shakes out that week.

There is no objective evidence or prior precedent that supports the odds are in Neal Brown's favor in bringing WVU back to the 2005-2007 glory days based upon the last 3 seasons. You can have hope, but your analytics are just mental gymnastics to try to make your hopeful optimism look more like reasoned future prospecting than gut feeling.

 

[Jason Voorhees]

In the last 4 decades there have been coaches that inherited worse situations than WVU and pretty much all of the good ones didn't have 3 consecutive 6 or less win seasons.

Can you start throwing out some examples?

 

[Mountain Man]

The only one moving the goal posts is yourself. Mediocrity is a subjective term. When are you going to stop being a chicken and just define what you mean by mediocrity? You won't answer the question because it will blow up in your face. The fact is wvu is around a 7 win program historically. The programs currently on the schedule with the exception of Texas and Oklahoma have about the same potential as wvu. The schedule is much tougher than it was in the past. Who else besides Louisville proved they could hang with the big boys from the big east?

Just because the program only averaged 7 wins in the past, doesn't mean we have to accept it for the future. Raise your standards

 

[Cuyahoga Falls Eers]

NB inherited the least amount of NFL Talent than any coach in the last 40 years its a fact. If you were a legit sportswriter you would know this. You were nothing but a small timer who wrote for a publication on the same level as the national enquirer.

AH, ANOTHER POSTER WHO WAKES UP AND SAYS "WHO CAN I BE NASTY TO TODAY AND HOW?" WHO MENTIONED NFL TALENT? I JUST NAMED PLAYERS HANDED TO NEAL BROWN WHO ARE OUTSTANDING TALENT THAT ANY COACH IN THE COUNTRY WOULD BE HAPPY TO HAVE. I DON'T CARE ABOUT TRAINING PLAYERS FOR THE NFL, ONLY IN HAVING WVU PLAYERS WHO WIN GAMES FOR MY ALMA MATER. DON'T YOU?

 

[Jason Voorhees]

AH, ANOTHER POSTER WHO WAKES UP AND SAYS "WHO CAN I BE NASTY TO TODAY AND HOW?" WHO MENTIONED NFL TALENT? I JUST NAMED PLAYERS HANDED TO NEAL BROWN WHO ARE OUTSTANDING TALENT THAT ANY COACH IN THE COUNTRY WOULD BE HAPPY TO HAVE. I DON'T CARE ABOUT TRAINING PLAYERS FOR THE NFL, ONLY IN HAVING WVU PLAYERS WHO WIN GAMES FOR MY ALMA MATER. DON'T YOU?

Outside of Stills I doubt the majority of what you mentioned would be sought after by Blue Bloods. People are nasty to you because you like cooking your numbers and pimping washed up bums like Bowden who haven't done anything in 20 years.

 

[Cuyahoga Falls Eers]

Outside of Stills I doubt the majority of what you mentioned would be sought after by Blue Bloods. People are nasty to you because you like cooking your numbers and pimping washed up bums like Bowden who haven't done anything in 20 years.

EXACTLY HOW IS REPORTING THE NUMBERS "COOKING UP YOUR NUMBERS"? I CHECK OUT THE NUMBERS FIRST, THEN I REPORT THEM, EVEN WHEN THEY DISAGREE WITH WHAT I THOUGHT BEFORE I CHECKED THE NUMBERS. NUMBERS ARE IMPARTIAL AND RATIONAL. UNLIKE SO WHO DON'T LIKE TO READ WHAT THEY DON'T WANT TO BELIEVE. SURE, I GET IT WRONG. BUT THE NUMBERS ARE EXACTLY AS I FOUND THEM. I DON'T "COOK THEM UP." I REPORT THEM.

 

[Jason Voorhees]

EXACTLY HOW IS REPORTING THE NUMBERS "COOKING UP YOUR NUMBERS"? I CHECK OUT THE NUMBERS FIRST, THEN I REPORT THEM, EVEN WHEN THEY DISAGREE WITH WHAT I THOUGHT BEFORE I CHECKED THE NUMBERS. NUMBERS ARE IMPARTIAL AND RATIONAL. UNLIKE SO WHO DON'T LIKE TO READ WHAT THEY DON'T WANT TO BELIEVE. SURE, I GET IT WRONG. BUT THE NUMBERS ARE EXACTLY AS I FOUND THEM. I DON'T "COOK THEM UP." I REPORT THEM.

You fudge numbers to fit your agenda all the time. Stop playing stupid. Tell me how many of the guys you listed outside of Stills is a serious NFL prospect

 

[Volatility]

EVEN A BLIND SQUIRREL FINDS AN ACORN EVERY NOW AND THEN, RIGHT? AS ALWAYS, I CHECK THE FACTS BEFORE I POST OR RESPOND. TOO BAD VOLATILITY DIDN'T.

IN WVU history.... When has WVU EVER been a good team with the vast majority of starting 22-33 players been Freshmen & Soph??

Go and check the recruiting rankings of every players on that 2019 team. Then add a weighting for YOuth... Ill say again, Its the worst roster from both a talent & youth perspective in the 21 century.

I see 3 - 4 impact players on that BIG LIST of yours that could probably find a spot on another P5 roster if they transferred now, but 1-2 less 2.5 yrs ago.... IT takes a team of 30-40 quality & experienced players to be good.

If you think those players should be able to compete against Offenses & Defenses starting 7-9 Seniors & 2-4 Juniors, your homorism needs a vaccine, the kind that doesnt require a booster..

The importance of experience, maturity, development, & familiarity is greater then Talent. A perfect example of this is, Tavon Austin, Will Grier, Mac Jones, I can go on and on and on... The performance, efficieny, & player productivity data for Junior & Seniors are Light Years better then Fresh & Soph....

The 2019 team was one of the youngest in all of D1, D1 which is more then P5.... DanaH left a trash can behind, but unlike with plastics you cant just throw it in the recycle bin... It takes 3-5 years for players to cycle through..

Look at Dana H recruiting rankings for 2015, 2016, & 2017, dont just go and look at the class ranking, because the top 5-7 rated players FROM EACH CLASS either, never played a down, failed out of school, medically retired, or transferred before the 2019 season.. When you subtract those players from those classes, they would rank in the 70's-80's, and that is for 3 consecutive classes, all of which would have been upperclassmen for Brown at a historically developmental program that heavily relies on upperclassmen.

You are out of touch with reality if you think having a few talented & inexperienced Freshmen and Soph will allow for any P5 team to be above average..

BTW, 2020 was NB's first real class. He inherited the 2019 recruiting class from DH...

 

[Pitt4Life34]

You should work for CNN or the DNC since you are so poor at gaslighting.

haha you’re better than that. Did you forget? You’re the smartest guy in the room.

 

[Volatility]

In the last 4 decades there have been coaches that inherited worse situations than WVU and pretty much all of the good ones didn't have 3 consecutive 6 or less win seasons. It's not purely a roster or coaching issue for WVU currently.


There is no objective evidence or prior precedent that supports the odds are in Neal Brown's favor in bringing WVU back to the 2005-2007 glory days based upon the last 3 seasons.

Did those HC's play an equal SoS? Did they play the same number of P5 opponents? Did they inherit a D2 O-line with No P5 QB on the roster? Did those coaches achieve recruiting records within his first 2 classes? Did they improve recruiting, or did they continue to recruit at the same level as previous staffs?

Comparing historical coaches simply by wins & losses, esp with NB's second year being a shortened covid year, is a dark side of the moon analysis.

"Glory Days"

They are always labeled that because its extremely deviated, not the norm.... WVU is a 7 win program historically. IM not sure WVU will ever return to that level of play. It was the perfect storm of:

Strength of Schedule---- People can say, but they beat UGA & OU.... Thats true, but its easier to lay it all on the line for 1 game at the end of the season, then play quality opponents all year.

Generational Players

Generational Scheme that was perfectly matched to the players

RRod is one of the godfathers of modern offenses, I dont like him, but he revolutionized the game of football with his concepts that will likely never happen again, or only occurs every few decades, and WVU was extremely lucky to have the coach to do it..

That is not the bar I use, because its not the average...

Can Brown win >= 8 games per year( 1 higher then our historical average), and can he put us in a position to be competitive for a conference championship 1 in 3-4 years. Allowing for 4-5 years to build, to reach the plateau, then the frequency of conference championship competitiveness will be higher. Which after 10-X years of coaching at WVU would average to be 1 in 3-4 years, after he movies on.. The distribution curve is very common for coaches to remain at one spot for 8+ yrs. The first few years are slow, followed by a sharp increase, then plateau, then ride the slope back down.. The problem I see is many programs stick with that coach for to long after they have already peaked... Like KState did with Bill Snyder or TCU with Gary Patterson..

DanaH was a 1 in 8 years coach.... Wasnt good enough.. His ceiling was to low.


I dont know if Brown will be able to achieve realistically obtainable goals at WVU.... But I do know, considering the deviated starting point, its to early to feel strongly either way.

I think you would be hard pressed to find a comparable situation in P5 in the last 30-40 years... Taking every meaningful factor into consideration. Are you using coaching examples from a program like Kansas? Which isnt comparable to WVU...

This is the first time we as fans have experienced a completely depleted roster in a very long time... We are not use to seeing mostly Fresh & Soph on the field, but that was+is how dire the situation was... Again, if NB had just an average WVU roster I would feel differently... I would also feel differently if our losses were not competitive losses given away by a few boneheaded mistakes by a single player...

I dont blame DanaH for WVU's loss to OU... While if you score 5x points you should win that game, as we see now what a quality DC looks like.... That said, WVU was the better team, and Will Grier very unfortunately made two game losing mistakes. I dont blame coaches for execution mistakes, unless it was a bad play call that caused it and players are developed well.

If Doege doesnt make those game losing mistakes, we would not be having this discussion of "Seeing improvement" & "6 Wins or less historically", esp with how Brown is recruiting...

My position will quickly change however by the end of the 5th year, if we dont see significant improvement, or by the end of next year should Brown's 2023 recruiting class not be aligned with the 21 & 22 classes..

I do agree with your sentiment that in order for HC's to do well at WVU they have to squeeze every drop of potential from every player, scheme, etc... They have to leverage every possible edge, be more creative, more intelligent, etc... Cause WVU will always......always be at a significant disadvantage compared to 15 or so other programs..

 

[Jason Voorhees]

Did those HC's play an equal SoS? Did they play the same number of P5 opponents? Did they inherit a D2 O-line with No P5 QB on the roster? Did those coaches achieve recruiting records within his first 2 classes? Did they improve recruiting, or did they continue to recruit at the same level as previous staffs?

Comparing historical coaches simply by wins & losses, esp with NB's second year being a shortened covid year, is a dark side of the moon analysis.

"Glory Days"

They are always labeled that because its extremely deviated, not the norm.... WVU is a 7 win program historically. IM not sure WVU will ever return to that level of play. It was the perfect storm of:

Strength of Schedule---- People can say, but they beat UGA & OU.... Thats true, but its easier to lay it all on the line for 1 game at the end of the season, then play quality opponents all year.

Generational Players

Generational Scheme that was perfectly matched to the players

RRod is one of the godfathers of modern offenses, I dont like him, but he revolutionized the game of football with his concepts that will likely never happen again, or only occurs every few decades, and WVU was extremely lucky to have the coach to do it..

That is not the bar I use, because its not the average...

Can Brown win >= 8 games per year( 1 higher then our historical average), and can he put us in a position to be competitive for a conference championship 1 in 3-4 years. Allowing for 4-5 years to build, to reach the plateau, then the frequency of conference championship competitiveness will be higher. Which after 10-X years of coaching at WVU would average to be 1 in 3-4 years, after he movies on.. The distribution curve is very common for coaches to remain at one spot for 8+ yrs. The first few years are slow, followed by a sharp increase, then plateau, then ride the slope back down.. The problem I see is many programs stick with that coach for to long after they have already peaked... Like KState did with Bill Snyder or TCU with Gary Patterson..

DanaH was a 1 in 8 years coach.... Wasnt good enough.. His ceiling was to low.


I dont know if Brown will be able to achieve realistically obtainable goals at WVU.... But I do know, considering the deviated starting point, its to early to feel strongly either way.

I think you would be hard pressed to find a comparable situation in P5 in the last 30-40 years... Taking every meaningful factor into consideration. Are you using coaching examples from a program like Kansas? Which isnt comparable to WVU...

This is the first time we as fans have experienced a completely depleted roster in a very long time... We are not use to seeing mostly Fresh & Soph on the field, but that was+is how dire the situation was... Again, if NB had just an average WVU roster I would feel differently... I would also feel differently if our losses were not competitive losses given away by a few boneheaded mistakes by a single player...

I dont blame DanaH for WVU's loss to OU... While if you score 5x points you should win that game, as we see now what a quality DC looks like.... That said, WVU was the better team, and Will Grier very unfortunately made two game losing mistakes. I dont blame coaches for execution mistakes, unless it was a bad play call that caused it and players are developed well.

If Doege doesnt make those game losing mistakes, we would not be having this discussion of "Seeing improvement" & "6 Wins or less historically", esp with how Brown is recruiting...

My position will quickly change however by the end of the 5th year, if we dont see significant improvement, or by the end of next year should Brown's 2023 recruiting class not be aligned with the 21 & 22 classes..

I do agree with your sentiment that in order for HC's to do well at WVU they have to squeeze every drop of potential from every player, scheme, etc... They have to leverage every possible edge, be more creative, more intelligent, etc... Cause WVU will always......always be at a significant disadvantage compared to 15 or so other programs..

Look at Saban's stint at Michigan State. It took him 5 years to get that program turned around. Years 1-2 were 6 win seasons year 3 was a 7-5 season year 4 they fell back to 6 wins. It wasn't until year 5 that he turned the corner. If He was held to the standards that some expect today he would have been fired. Most people don't understand the term developmental program. Most of the guys that we get even in the best recruiting years are projects. Our success depends on turning 3 stars into 4-5 stars. This will never be Alabama. Oklahoma State would be a good model for us they rely on turning 3 stars into 4-5 stars. They are probably the best or one of the best of the non blue bloods. Wvu realistically under the right conditions can be what Okie state is.

 

[The Bell Tolls for Thee]

Did those HC's play an equal SoS? Did they play the same number of P5 opponents? Did they inherit a D2 O-line with No P5 QB on the roster? Did those coaches achieve recruiting records within his first 2 classes? Did they improve recruiting, or did they continue to recruit at the same level as previous staffs?

Comparing historical coaches simply by wins & losses, esp with NB's second year being a shortened covid year, is a dark side of the moon analysis.

"Glory Days"

They are always labeled that because its extremely deviated, not the norm.... WVU is a 7 win program historically. IM not sure WVU will ever return to that level of play. It was the perfect storm of:

Strength of Schedule---- People can say, but they beat UGA & OU.... Thats true, but its easier to lay it all on the line for 1 game at the end of the season, then play quality opponents all year.

Generational Players

Generational Scheme that was perfectly matched to the players

RRod is one of the godfathers of modern offenses, I dont like him, but he revolutionized the game of football with his concepts that will likely never happen again, or only occurs every few decades, and WVU was extremely lucky to have the coach to do it..

That is not the bar I use, because its not the average...

Can Brown win >= 8 games per year( 1 higher then our historical average), and can he put us in a position to be competitive for a conference championship 1 in 3-4 years. Allowing for 4-5 years to build, to reach the plateau, then the frequency of conference championship competitiveness will be higher. Which after 10-X years of coaching at WVU would average to be 1 in 3-4 years, after he movies on.. The distribution curve is very common for coaches to remain at one spot for 8+ yrs. The first few years are slow, followed by a sharp increase, then plateau, then ride the slope back down.. The problem I see is many programs stick with that coach for to long after they have already peaked... Like KState did with Bill Snyder or TCU with Gary Patterson..

DanaH was a 1 in 8 years coach.... Wasnt good enough.. His ceiling was to low.


I dont know if Brown will be able to achieve realistically obtainable goals at WVU.... But I do know, considering the deviated starting point, its to early to feel strongly either way.

I think you would be hard pressed to find a comparable situation in P5 in the last 30-40 years... Taking every meaningful factor into consideration. Are you using coaching examples from a program like Kansas? Which isnt comparable to WVU...

This is the first time we as fans have experienced a completely depleted roster in a very long time... We are not use to seeing mostly Fresh & Soph on the field, but that was+is how dire the situation was... Again, if NB had just an average WVU roster I would feel differently... I would also feel differently if our losses were not competitive losses given away by a few boneheaded mistakes by a single player...

I dont blame DanaH for WVU's loss to OU... While if you score 5x points you should win that game, as we see now what a quality DC looks like.... That said, WVU was the better team, and Will Grier very unfortunately made two game losing mistakes. I dont blame coaches for execution mistakes, unless it was a bad play call that caused it and players are developed well.

If Doege doesnt make those game losing mistakes, we would not be having this discussion of "Seeing improvement" & "6 Wins or less historically", esp with how Brown is recruiting...

My position will quickly change however by the end of the 5th year, if we dont see significant improvement, or by the end of next year should Brown's 2023 recruiting class not be aligned with the 21 & 22 classes..

I do agree with your sentiment that in order for HC's to do well at WVU they have to squeeze every drop of potential from every player, scheme, etc... They have to leverage every possible edge, be more creative, more intelligent, etc... Cause WVU will always......always be at a significant disadvantage compared to 15 or so other programs..

Certainly not every coach's situation is identical, but that does not mean some comparisons cannot be made. And all this text does not invalidate that your position is much more based upon feelings of hopeful optimism than logical fact or previous precedent. There is nothing wrong with your position and I completely understand it. But you must understand that those with a less rosy view are not wildly off base. In fact, there is more object reason and prior precedent to be pessimistic that Brown will able to recreate the levels of Nehlen or RR which is what the goal should be for WVU. Not saying he can't, but novel length posts do not make change feelings into profound, objective divinations.

 

[Cuyahoga Falls Eers]

IN WVU history.... When has WVU EVER been a good team with the vast majority of starting 22-33 players been Freshmen & Soph??

Go and check the recruiting rankings of every players on that 2019 team. Then add a weighting for YOuth... Ill say again, Its the worst roster from both a talent & youth perspective in the 21 century.

I see 3 - 4 impact players on that BIG LIST of yours that could probably find a spot on another P5 roster if they transferred now, but 1-2 less 2.5 yrs ago.... IT takes a team of 30-40 quality & experienced players to be good.

If you think those players should be able to compete against Offenses & Defenses starting 7-9 Seniors & 2-4 Juniors, your homorism needs a vaccine, the kind that doesnt require a booster..

The importance of experience, maturity, development, & familiarity is greater then Talent. A perfect example of this is, Tavon Austin, Will Grier, Mac Jones, I can go on and on and on... The performance, efficieny, & player productivity data for Junior & Seniors are Light Years better then Fresh & Soph....

The 2019 team was one of the youngest in all of D1, D1 which is more then P5.... DanaH left a trash can behind, but unlike with plastics you cant just throw it in the recycle bin... It takes 3-5 years for players to cycle through..

Look at Dana H recruiting rankings for 2015, 2016, & 2017, dont just go and look at the class ranking, because the top 5-7 rated players FROM EACH CLASS either, never played a down, failed out of school, medically retired, or transferred before the 2019 season.. When you subtract those players from those classes, they would rank in the 70's-80's, and that is for 3 consecutive classes, all of which would have been upperclassmen for Brown at a historically developmental program that heavily relies on upperclassmen.

You are out of touch with reality if you think having a few talented & inexperienced Freshmen and Soph will allow for any P5 team to be above average..

BTW, 2020 was NB's first real class. He inherited the 2019 recruiting class from DH...

Ill say again, Its the worst roster from both a talent & youth perspective in the 21 century.

Compounding your irrationality, I see.

a few talented & inexperienced Freshmen and Soph

so Leddie Brown is a nothing? And other others I mentioned? They are building blocks that skilled coaches use to have a successful team. Stop embarassing yourself. YOU are out of touch with reality.

I will give you this. Juniors and seniors usually are better than freshman and sophomores.

Freshman Leddie Brown, running back extraordinaire today
Freshman Bryce Ford-Wheaton, wide receiver
Freshman Jose Chandler-Semedo, linebacker
Sophomore Isaiah Esdale, wide receiver
Sophomore linebacker Dylan Tonkery
Sophomore safety Sean Mahone
Freshman kicker Casey Legg who rarely misses a field goal this season
Freshman Dante Stills defensive lineman

are better than thousands of juniors and seniors in Power 5 conferences this season.

Stop forcing me to make you look bad. It's demeaning.

 

[Cuyahoga Falls Eers]

Neal Brown had 4 seasons at Troy in which 3 were double digit win totals.
10-3
11-2
10-3
You're saying this mediocre? If that is the case Then was Don Nehlen Mediocre? was Rich Rodriquez Mediocre? Not sure why you follow Wvu its been pretty much mediocre your entire life.

double-digit seasons at Troy don't compare to 8-4 at WVU. Which we very recently were achieving regularly. And better!

 

[WVUALLEN]

SO, NO MATTER HOW BAD A COACH DOES YOU WOULD PUT UP WITH IT FOR FIVE (5!) YEARS! MASOCIST!

See Beamer first 6 years at Virginia Tech 24-40-1
See Beamer 1993-2011 (185-58)
See Beamer final 4 years 29-22

Hmmm...it's a gamble for sure but what can you do when an AD sets Brown up to make sure he goes nowhere for 2 more years.

Pick a profile...CFE or Bucky.

 

[Cuyahoga Falls Eers]

Look, I understand what WVU hired Neal Brown. He WAS a hot commodity at the time.


Lost by only 30-24 to Clemson in 2016

Defeated LSU 24-21 in 2017 !!!

Defeated Nebraska 24-19 in 2018 !!!

4-8 in 2015

10-3 in 2016

11-2 in 2017

10-3 in 2018

35-16 for 9-4 season average




Can’t lay blame for these losses on Neal, his first season at Troy when he inherited inadequate players:

Lost 48-21 to North Carolina State in 2015

Lost 28-3 to Wisconsin in 2015

Lost 45-17 to Missippi State in 2015

But Troy's conference schedule would be like WVU playing Mid-American Conference teams like Akron and Kent State.

Numbers, as usual, was unemotional. 3 remarkable results for Neal at Troy even though one was a loss.

And worst 3-year start at WVU in 40 years. Numbers, as usual, are unemotional.

 

[westsiderSJHS77]

Brown, like any new coach deserves 5 years to build HIS team. Put away your plane pulled banners, whining and moaning and sit down in the cheap seats and shut up.

 

[Volatility]

Ill say again, Its the worst roster from both a talent & youth perspective in the 21 century.

Compounding your irrationality, I see.

a few talented & inexperienced Freshmen and Soph

so Leddie Brown is a nothing? And other others I mentioned? They are building blocks that skilled coaches use to have a successful team. Stop embarassing yourself. YOU are out of touch with reality.

I will give you this. Juniors and seniors usually are better than freshman and sophomores.

Freshman Leddie Brown, running back extraordinaire today
Freshman Bryce Ford-Wheaton, wide receiver
Freshman Jose Chandler-Semedo, linebacker
Sophomore Isaiah Esdale, wide receiver
Sophomore linebacker Dylan Tonkery
Sophomore safety Sean Mahone
Freshman kicker Casey Legg who rarely misses a field goal this season
Freshman Dante Stills defensive lineman

are better than thousands of juniors and seniors in Power 5 conferences this season.

Stop forcing me to make you look bad. It's demeaning.

OUt of all RBs, LBs, WR's, & Safeties in the Big12, where do you think those players rank THIS YEAR compared to other BIG12 players in the same position?

 

[Buckaineer]

Laughable to pretend Neal Brown is some Nick Saban in hiding jus waiting for that 5th, 6th, 7th year and then itll all come together and hell be the greatest!

The same people who bashed the second winningest coach in WVU history are now trying to sell the " wait and see
" when for the last decade it was "put up or get out". Double standard hypocritical nonsense.

Brown can show alot tomorrow or he can show the limits of which he is capable.

But even the best results the rest of the way leave WVU a far cry from where it was just a few seasons back-winning at a clip of 8 wins per season average 5 years running and mere pts from a BIG 12 CCG.

Tomorrow is put up or shut up time. No more excuses.

 

[EERs 3:16]

Brown, like any new coach deserves 5 years to build HIS team. Put away your plane pulled banners, whining and moaning and sit down in the cheap seats and shut up.

Deserves or earns?

 

[OlegeezEER]

Some would say it was just 2 seasons ago... If you had a graph that plotted roster quality(Talent & Experience) the past 2 seasons would be the two lowest/worst plots in the 21st century.

Logically speaking, while we may not agree on much, I think we can both agree that what a coach inherits is a major determining factor in their success in the first 2-4 years depending on the level of insufficiencies they inherited.

The magnitude of change required, determines the amount of time needed for correction. If any decent coach in P5 would miraculously become the HC for Bama next year, I bet he could win at least 10-11 games, on the talent alone. That said, he could still underperform, because under a quality coach he could squeeze 1-4 additional wins out of that talent.

I also think we can both agree, a staff can underperform relative to roster talent, just like they can outperform. That swings both ways. The roster is and will always be the primary factor in determining outcome or team quality. A staff can add or subtract a few wins from that base, so if you look at WVU roster, and using recruiting rankings based expectations of the players actually on the team, most of which he inherited, this staff has significantly outperformed since at WVU.

Time will tell if NB is the man to achieve realistic goals at WVU, which is to be a contender for a conference championship 1 in 3 years, and win >= 8 games per year, which is 1 higher then our historical average. Its to early to tell, considering the level of shit NB inherited, he deserves enough time to coach a team he recruited before we make a decision, as a fanbase to withdraw support. Thats not saying we dont have expectations of improvement, or to see progress on an annual basis, which we certainly have seen, particularly if you look beyond just Wins & Losses. JUst like how I dont blame Dana for Grier's two fumble 6's, I dont blame Brown for Doege's absolutely boneheaded game losing decisions. If Doege doesnt blow it vs OU/Terps/TTU we would not be having a discussion of progress, because we have been competitive in every game this year aside from Baylor & OkieSt, both of which are top 10 teams.

If after the 5th season is over and we continue to see the same issues, Ill be the first to say its time to move on, but until then, lets as a fanbase do everything we can to help this program & staff be successful, ultimately if you/we are truly fans we want to do whatever is best for the program, our loyalty is to WVU, not to any staff.

Hey vol here is some food for thought. I looked at all the power 5 coaching changes the year Brown was hired at wvu. Look at the records of these teams this year. As you can see 6-6 pretty common for a 3rd year coach at a mid-level program like wvu. I didn't include Kansas or Ohio state since they are on opposite ends of the spectrum from wvu.

Chris Klieman K State 7-5
Geoff Collins Ga Tech 3-9
Mike Locksley Maryland 6-6
Scott Satterfield Louisville 6-6
Matt Wells/Combie Texas Tech 6-6
Mack Brown North Carolina 6-6

 

[WVUFanForever]

But even the best results the rest of the way leave WVU a far cry from where it was just a few seasons back-winning at a clip of 8 wins per season average 5 years running and mere pts from a BIG 12 CCG.

Even a limp dick troll like yourself knows cokehead Dana only won more than eight games twice (and once it was with Stewart's players)...yet you act like he was the golden age of WVU football.

And fck you and your 'mere points'....Neal was 13 points away from being 9-3 this season..........fck you and your mere points....which is better than your coked up bf usually was here....

 

[WVUFanForever]

haha you’re better than that. Did you forget? You’re the smartest guy in the room.

You ever get tired of being the dumbest in the room?

Except when the great turdboy shows up I mean?

 

[OlegeezEER]

Just because the program only averaged 7 wins in the past, doesn't mean we have to accept it for the future. Raise your standards

Who said anything about excepting it. Like it or not it's what wvu is. If wvu wants be better than we need to start be being on the forefront of facility improvements and not playing catch up. We need to start packing the house even when times are not great. Thats what the big boys do. We need to increase donations. We need to pay more to retain assistants or to attract higher quality ones. Fsu boosters raised 17 million in 30 minutes to cover the buyout of Willie Taggart. Other boosters have done the same at other universities. I don't see the boosters here with that ability. You want to be big time than start stepping up to plate. The majority of the complainers on here probably don't donate a dime so what do you expect.

 

[OlegeezEER]

double-digit seasons at Troy don't compare to 8-4 at WVU. Which we very recently were achieving regularly. And better!

Well if you took the time to actually read the context in which this was written then you would understand the point. The point is there was nothing mediocre about Neals stint at Troy. Coaching in the sun belt is on a more even plane than the power 5. What's the difference between one sun belt team and they next? The power 5 is more uneven you can't tell me that there isn't a difference between Wvu Alabama Oklahoma? I have seen posters accuse you of fudging numbers to fit your agenda. I see you do it all the time. Here is an example your Terry Bowden obsession. You have attempted to make his Akron record look good when it's terrible. Terry was hired to make Akron a winner not less of a loser. Who cares if he had the best record at Akron in the last 30 years, he still didn't make the program a winner. What's the difference between one mac team and the next? It's not like elite athletics are heading to mac schools. They get the players that schools like wvu don't want. For a guy who tells the world he just goes by the numbers you sure hell don't have a problem twisting them to fit your agenda. If you want to discuss Bowden a better thread would be why is this wash out wasting his time coaching? The guy isn't going anywhere. He should have made enough money during his stint at Auburn and the time he spent as a broadcaster to sail into the sunset.

 

[OlegeezEER]

OUt of all RBs, LBs, WR's, & Safeties in the Big12, where do you think those players rank THIS YEAR compared to other BIG12 players in the same position?

This is what him and others fail to understand. Some of the players we have at the moment are solid but not exceptional. Leddie Brown is a tough physical runner but he lacks elite speed. One thing that stood out watching the iron bowl is the size speed and physicality of the Alabama receivers. I look at some of are receivers Sean Ryan is a big guy but lacks elite speed. Wright looks alright but has a small frame. This is what Neal is attempting to fix. He is trying to bring in better players and were going to need them if we want to compete for anything in the big 12.