When HCNB arrived on the scene many of you

[EERs 3:16]

Said that his failures were due largely to a general lack of talent and a bare cupboard.

So, moving forward, what is the current state of WVU’s roster? Is it rich with talent or is it filled with a bunch of suspect players? Just want to make sure we establish what the baseline is before we bring in a new coach…..

 

[deedoubleyou]

The same people also raved about this is the best recruiting wvu has ever had. Bare cupboard my ass. His first class is in grad school now. There is plenty of talent. Neal brown has made a bunch of excuses and some fans believe it, but reality is that he won't be here much longer because he is sinking the program.

 

[WVUALLEN]

Haters.

The cupboard was bare as a baby's bottom. Has it it been replaced? The talent is there and his recruiting is up to standard of other coaches here before him. His coaching, motivational skills and growth of players on the other hand is bad, well you see the results. He tends to pick starters that have seniority instead of starting talented players. His assistant coaches are below the standard that WVU has had before. If not for Shane I believe Brown would have been fired already.

Good coaches make good teams by coordinating the players' strengths to achieve a good outcome. A good coach can identify what each player can contribute.

Brown doesn't change his offense for the skills the players have. Plus he needs to fire assistant coaches that have sucked since being here.

And please somebody get rid of EGG and this would be a huge step forward.

 

[BigLickMountee]

Said that his failures were due largely to a general lack of talent and a bare cupboard.

So, moving forward, what is the current state of WVU’s roster? Is it rich with talent or is it filled with a bunch of suspect players? Just want to make sure we establish what the baseline is before we bring in a new coach…..

it's not rich with talent if comparing the talent to other schools who win because of talent and it's not filled with a bunch of suspect players if one believes the rating services that rate players. Brown has been beaten more often than not by better teams. There are examples of equal or lesser teams beating WVU under his watch, but that can be said of many other teams too. He isn't performing and at the end of the season, or sooner based on performance, he needs to go.

 

[jlaudiomaster]

Haters.

The cupboard was bare as a baby's bottom. Has it it been replaced? The talent is there and his recruiting is up to standard of other coaches here before him. His coaching, motivational skills and growth of players on the other hand is bad, well you see the results. He tends to pick starters that have seniority instead of starting talented players. His assistant coaches are below the standard that WVU has had before. If not for Shane I believe Brown would have been fired already.

Good coaches make good teams by coordinating the players' strengths to achieve a good outcome. A good coach can identify what each player can contribute.

Brown doesn't change his offense for the skills the players have. Plus he needs to fire assistant coaches that have sucked since being here.

And please somebody get rid of EGG and this would be a huge step forward.

I agree, the cupboard is hardly bare right now. The offensive line is as good as we’ve seen in years with accolades. The running back room is loaded. The dline is decent and the linebackers have actually been a pleasant surprise. You nailed it with his loyalty for players who have seniority over talent. All that said, we need a game breaker on offense. Someone who is a threat bust a play for 60 yards at any time. We also need a secondary. I think our talent there is not where it needs to be but I also think coaching isn’t helping. That our corners are giving 20 yard cushions on third and 6 falls directly on coaching.

 

[oceantide83]

Haters.

The cupboard was bare as a baby's bottom. Has it it been replaced? The talent is there and his recruiting is up to standard of other coaches here before him. His coaching, motivational skills and growth of players on the other hand is bad, well you see the results. He tends to pick starters that have seniority instead of starting talented players. His assistant coaches are below the standard that WVU has had before. If not for Shane I believe Brown would have been fired already.

Good coaches make good teams by coordinating the players' strengths to achieve a good outcome. A good coach can identify what each player can contribute.

Brown doesn't change his offense for the skills the players have. Plus he needs to fire assistant coaches that have sucked since being here.

And please somebody get rid of EGG and this would be a huge step forward.

You love you some EGG on your face.

 

[oceantide83]

I agree, the cupboard is hardly bare right now. The offensive line is as good as we’ve seen in years with accolades. The running back room is loaded. The dline is decent and the linebackers have actually been a pleasant surprise. You nailed it with his loyalty for players who have seniority over talent. All that said, we need a game breaker on offense. Someone who is a threat bust a play for 60 yards at any time. We also need a secondary. I think our talent there is not where it needs to be but I also think coaching isn’t helping. That our corners are giving 20 yard cushions on third and 6 falls directly on coaching.

White is your gamebreaker.

 

[WVUALLEN]

I agree, the cupboard is hardly bare right now. The offensive line is as good as we’ve seen in years with accolades. The running back room is loaded. The dline is decent and the linebackers have actually been a pleasant surprise. You nailed it with his loyalty for players who have seniority over talent. All that said, we need a game breaker on offense. Someone who is a threat bust a play for 60 yards at any time. We also need a secondary. I think our talent there is not where it needs to be but I also think coaching isn’t helping. That our corners are giving 20 yard cushions on third and 6 falls directly on coaching.

Have a game breaker that goes by the name Jahiem White (22). I haven't seen any WVU corners since Don Nehlen days that have not played off the ball especially in 3-3-5 defense. WVU has rarely gotten great secondary players. But Nehlen and Rodriguez assistants knew how to coach up a player.

 

[WVUALLEN]

You love you some EGG on your face.

Sounds like you have homosexual fantasies. Are you Transgender and rape young girls in women's bathrooms?

 

[oceantide83]

Sounds like you have homosexual fantasies. Are you Transgender and rape young girls in women's bathrooms?

Hadn't occurred to me so you must be referring to yourself.

 

[WVUALLEN]

Hadn't occurred to me so you must be referring to yourself.

I expected a childish reply from you. I got it. Enjoy being the first ever poster to be ignored by me.

 

[oceantide83]

I expected a childish reply from you. I got it. Enjoy being the first ever poster to be ignored by me.

 

[ThePunish-EER]

Haters.

The cupboard was bare as a baby's bottom. Has it it been replaced? The talent is there and his recruiting is up to standard of other coaches here before him. His coaching, motivational skills and growth of players on the other hand is bad, well you see the results. He tends to pick starters that have seniority instead of starting talented players. His assistant coaches are below the standard that WVU has had before. If not for Shane I believe Brown would have been fired already.

Good coaches make good teams by coordinating the players' strengths to achieve a good outcome. A good coach can identify what each player can contribute.

Brown doesn't change his offense for the skills the players have. Plus he needs to fire assistant coaches that have sucked since being here.

And please somebody get rid of EGG and this would be a huge step forward.

I agree, the cupboard is hardly bare right now. The offensive line is as good as we’ve seen in years with accolades. The running back room is loaded. The dline is decent and the linebackers have actually been a pleasant surprise. You nailed it with his loyalty for players who have seniority over talent. All that said, we need a game breaker on offense. Someone who is a threat bust a play for 60 yards at any time. We also need a secondary. I think our talent there is not where it needs to be but I also think coaching isn’t helping. That our corners are giving 20 yard cushions on third and 6 falls directly on coaching.

What I see are very average players at best. I don’t see star power. Garrett Greene is easily the most electrifying player on offense and he wouldn’t even start at QB for any top 25 school and probably not for the majority of any mid to upper echelon schools in the P5 conferences. We have zero playmakers.

 

[WVUALLEN]

What I see are very average players at best. I don’t see star power. Garrett Greene is easily the most electrifying player on offense and he wouldn’t even start at QB for any top 25 school and probably not for the majority of any mid to upper echelon schools in the P5 conferences. We have zero playmakers.

I guess you didn't see the RB's. That's ok though but I would go to the eye doctor if I were you.

 

[WVUALLEN]

You know I could never ignore anyone. That's funny.

 

[mountaineermaniac34]

Said that his failures were due largely to a general lack of talent and a bare cupboard.

So, moving forward, what is the current state of WVU’s roster? Is it rich with talent or is it filled with a bunch of suspect players? Just want to make sure we establish what the baseline is before we bring in a new coach…..

The biggest excuse for HCNB was the personal feelings invading his judgment with Doege. We can’t hold HCNB accountable for putting his friendship before the team. It’s unfortunate. We have a quarterback now who is gaining meaningful experience when it should have been done two years ago.

The quarterback play has been the worst for many decades for WVU, and this was his fault. The gamble for the traveling con man playing at Rice proves his desperation for something pertinent. We wasted really good defenses against a conference that has some tremendous offensive players.

If HCNB does get fired at the end of the year, 80% of it will be due to The Doege Doomsday Decision and the lack of quarterback development.

 

[deedoubleyou]

The best season we've had in the B12 was 2016. Here are our star players from that 10-3 season with stats.

Skylar Howard - QB - 3328 yards 26 TD's. 463 Rush Yards with 10 TD's
Justin Crawford - RB - 1184 yards 4 TD's
Dakiel Shorts - WR - 894 YDs 9 TDs
Shelton Gibson - WR - 951 YDs 8 TDs

How many people are talking about those guys today? They are forgotten.

We had a few RB's behind Crawford (Petteway, McKoy), a pretty good OL. Decent WR's not any world beaters. Very comparable to what Brown has now, except I think Brown has more at RB. This cupboard bare stuff is just excuses. Its nonsense. We had less "on paper" talent than other years like with Grier and Geno and even last year, with a handful of big WRs and as 5 star QB. The biggest difference in 2016 was coaching. It was Dana's best year by far. He changed his typical game plan to fit Skylar and used him running with Crawford and the other RBs. I remember running a good bit of RPO type stuff. It was a great season that gets swept under the rug because the lack of star players and sexy air raid that WVU fans were starving for at that time. It was the only 10 win season we've had in a long time. Skylar deserved more love from WVU fans, no doubt. All in all, I think Greene is just as good as Skylar, he just has a lot worse coaching. We have a good OL, plenty of talent all around on the team.

Coaching. Scheming to fit players strengths instead of trying to force a square peg in a round hole. It gets results. 2016 - the best aseason we've had since Stew, and also the least fan favorite despite finishing 2nd in the B12.

 

[ThePunish-EER]

The best season we've had in the B12 was 2016. Here are our star players from that 10-3 season with stats.

Skylar Howard - QB - 3328 yards 26 TD's. 463 Rush Yards with 10 TD's
Justin Crawford - RB - 1184 yards 4 TD's
Dakiel Shorts - WR - 894 YDs 9 TDs
Shelton Gibson - WR - 951 YDs 8 TDs

How many people are talking about those guys today? They are forgotten.

We had a few RB's behind Crawford (Petteway, McKoy), a pretty good OL. Decent WR's not any world beaters. Very comparable to what Brown has now, except I think Brown has more at RB. This cupboard bare stuff is just excuses. Its nonsense. We had less "on paper" talent than other years like with Grier and Geno and even last year, with a handful of big WRs and as 5 star QB. The biggest difference in 2016 was coaching. It was Dana's best year by far. He changed his typical game plan to fit Skylar and used him running with Crawford and the other RBs. I remember running a good bit of RPO type stuff. It was a great season that gets swept under the rug because the lack of star players and sexy air raid that WVU fans were starving for at that time. It was the only 10 win season we've had in a long time. Skylar deserved more love from WVU fans, no doubt. All in all, I think Greene is just as good as Skylar, he just has a lot worse coaching. We have a good OL, plenty of talent all around on the team.

Coaching. Scheming to fit players strengths instead of trying to force a square peg in a round hole. It gets results. 2016 - the best aseason we've had since Stew, and also the least fan favorite despite finishing 2nd in the B12.

I agree. Great post

 

[WVUALLEN]

The best season we've had in the B12 was 2016. Here are our star players from that 10-3 season with stats.

Skylar Howard - QB - 3328 yards 26 TD's. 463 Rush Yards with 10 TD's
Justin Crawford - RB - 1184 yards 4 TD's
Dakiel Shorts - WR - 894 YDs 9 TDs
Shelton Gibson - WR - 951 YDs 8 TDs

How many people are talking about those guys today? They are forgotten.

We had a few RB's behind Crawford (Petteway, McKoy), a pretty good OL. Decent WR's not any world beaters. Very comparable to what Brown has now, except I think Brown has more at RB. This cupboard bare stuff is just excuses. Its nonsense. We had less "on paper" talent than other years like with Grier and Geno and even last year, with a handful of big WRs and as 5 star QB. The biggest difference in 2016 was coaching. It was Dana's best year by far. He changed his typical game plan to fit Skylar and used him running with Crawford and the other RBs. I remember running a good bit of RPO type stuff. It was a great season that gets swept under the rug because the lack of star players and sexy air raid that WVU fans were starving for at that time. It was the only 10 win season we've had in a long time. Skylar deserved more love from WVU fans, no doubt. All in all, I think Greene is just as good as Skylar, he just has a lot worse coaching. We have a good OL, plenty of talent all around on the team.

Coaching. Scheming to fit players strengths instead of trying to force a square peg in a round hole. It gets results. 2016 - the best aseason we've had since Stew, and also the least fan favorite despite finishing 2nd in the B12.

Cupboard bare to me means no depth at all. Less than 85 scholarship players. Having a team with 60. Holgs went through the same thing with no depth but his starters were some of the best in nation.

2019 was the first time since early 60's that the incomig HC did not have a returning starter at QB.

Cupboard bare is no excuse period especially after 5 years.

Cupboard bare in 2019 was known fact. If it wasn't filled up by the 2nd season it's on the staff. There are now 85 scholarship players on this team.

 

[spartansstink]

Two things can be true at once...

Yes, one can argue that Brown's arrival saw a "bare" cupboard, if one decides how to define bare by certain facts.

Is the cupboard "bare" now? Again, it depends upon how one wants to define it.

But, the difference between then and now is the portal. Then, an excuse could be made about a bare cupboard and some would be likely to agree. In today's world, that excuse doesn't fly - you can simply go out and replace/upgrade any position of need without penalty or waiting.

Success can come quickly, i.e. Colorado, or if you aren't successful you struggle, i.e. WVU. It all depends upon whether the fanbase has the faith the coach can build the program through immediacy or through progression. If they don't, you won't have a job.

That's why Brown's job hinges on this season - the fanbase has lost faith he could do either. Even his defenders would have to admit this year the evidence has to be in the pudding.

 

[ThePunish-EER]

Two things can be true at once...

Yes, one can argue that Brown's arrival saw a "bare" cupboard, if one decides how to define bare by certain facts.

Is the cupboard "bare" now? Again, it depends upon how one wants to define it.

But, the difference between then and now is the portal. Then, an excuse could be made about a bare cupboard and some would be likely to agree. In today's world, that excuse doesn't fly - you can simply go out and replace/upgrade any position of need without penalty or waiting.

Success can come quickly, i.e. Colorado, or if you aren't successful you struggle, i.e. WVU. It all depends upon whether the fanbase has the faith the coach can build the program through immediacy or through progression. If they don't, you won't have a job.

That's why Brown's job hinges on this season - the fanbase has lost faith he could do either. Even his defenders would have to admit this year the evidence has to be in the pudding.

And after 5 years, this season should be the year to decide if he stays or goes.

 

[mountaineermaniac34]

This is with out a doubt the season that makes or breaks HCNB. No way you should be able to walk into the stadium on a Thursday night with good weather and sit anywhere you like in the lower level like I did against Baylor in 2022.

 

[deedoubleyou]

His first class should be in grad school now by normal standards. To me, last season was his last chance. The 4th year means his first class are seniors. In my mind, he's already done it was just the buyout that gave him an extra year. Neal hasnt shown me one thing to make be believe he can compete for a B12 title and be in the hunt regularly. Tbh even if his record were a bit more average, like a winning record, his brand of football and personality alike are not exciting at all. We ran off Dana because he wasnt getting it done, yet his brand of football was way more exciting and its not even close. Commentators would talk about Dana in a good light. The red bull guy. Exciting offense. They say nothing about Brown because Brown is boring and lame. Branding and hype are huge for a small market team. Stick with Brown and find that out the hard way.

 

[ThePunish-EER]

His first class should be in grad school now by normal standards. To me, last season was his last chance. The 4th year means his first class are seniors. In my mind, he's already done it was just the buyout that gave him an extra year. Neal hasnt shown me one thing to make be believe he can compete for a B12 title and be in the hunt regularly. Tbh even if his record were a bit more average, like a winning record, his brand of football and personality alike are not exciting at all. We ran off Dana because he wasnt getting it done, yet his brand of football was way more exciting and its not even close. Commentators would talk about Dana in a good light. The red bull guy. Exciting offense. They say nothing about Brown because Brown is boring and lame. Branding and hype are huge for a small market team. Stick with Brown and find that out the hard way.

At the end of the day, the record speaks for itself. This is the worst stretch of any WVU HC since the 1970’s under Cignetti.

 

[WVUBRU]

At the end of the day, the record speaks for itself. This is the worst stretch of any WVU HC since the 1970’s under Cignetti.

It is way better than the four years under Cignetti. I was at every home game those years and it was brutal.

We have won 3 games in a row. That is good. Hopefully, we have 4 or more wins in our future. If so, I would maintain significant improvement is evident this year. I know those that have made up their minds on wanting Brown gone will still want him gone. I would be willing to let him have another year but he might leave on his own.

 

[deedoubleyou]

It is way better than the four years under Cignetti. I was at every home game those years and it was brutal.

We have won 3 games in a row. That is good. Hopefully, we have 4 or more wins in our future. If so, I would maintain significant improvement is evident this year. I know those that have made up their minds on wanting Brown gone will still want him gone. I would be willing to let him have another year but he might leave on his own.

Way better is a really big reach. If better at all, only slightly and how much of that has to do with brown?

You are right on your other points though but its just opinion on whether he should stay or go. I love being 3-1 and winning games 3 in a row. But I also totally hate that wvu football has sunken so far, that winning 3 in a row agsinst weak opponents is seen as a big deal with brown. Pre Brown, beating 3 ranked teams in a row would be seen as a pretty big thing, but not out of the realm either. Now we are 5 years in looking at ugly low scoring wins against bad teams as a potential hot seat saving things and every week raises the question on whether brown should stay or go. Whatever. It's lame and reflects on wvu poorly. I expect way better on all fronts.

If we took a national poll, and it asked would Neal brown had been fired last season if there were no buyout, yes or no. I bet it would be 99% yes nationally. Because things were so bad his ad got fired lol. Minus the buyout and he was gone and everyone knows it, even him. It's a bad look. Bad leadership does that and we have that right now. Its insulting. He has to go by default because of that alone imo. It's just stupid.

 

[jlaudiomaster]

It is way better than the four years under Cignetti. I was at every home game those years and it was brutal.

We have won 3 games in a row. That is good. Hopefully, we have 4 or more wins in our future. If so, I would maintain significant improvement is evident this year. I know those that have made up their minds on wanting Brown gone will still want him gone. I would be willing to let him have another year but he might leave on his own.

if we win 7, not counting and regardless of bowl game outcome, sure. He will have earned another year. Not an extension though imo. If that means we risk losing him, so be it.

 

[spartansstink]

However, one has to look at the wins, no matter the quantity, as to whether they are quality wins or not.

Beating Penn State would have gone a lot farther to saving his job than beating SPitt who will be lucky to win 4 games this year. I don't think there are but a few of the teams in the B12 even ranked right now - and rankings right now are highly suggestive at best. Some of those we don't even play and the teams we do play, as of right now, don't look like they are making the rankings any time soon (with an exception or two - which of course he must win).

If that's the case, then even 7 or 8 wins shouldn't save his job because he lost games he probably shouldn't. That being said, don't just fire him without a replacement ready. Still, that new coach had better have something, or a lot of somethings, that Brown doesn't or things aren't going to change anyway.

 

[jlaudiomaster]

However, one has to look at the wins, no matter the quantity, as to whether they are quality wins or not.

Beating Penn State would have gone a lot farther to saving his job than beating SPitt who will be lucky to win 4 games this year. I don't think there are but a few of the teams in the B12 even ranked right now - and rankings right now are highly suggestive at best. Some of those we don't even play and the teams we do play, as of right now, don't look like they are making the rankings any time soon (with an exception or two - which of course he must win).

If that's the case, then even 7 or 8 wins shouldn't save his job because he lost games he probably shouldn't. That being said, don't just fire him without a replacement ready. Still, that new coach had better have something, or a lot of somethings, that Brown doesn't or things aren't going to change anyway.

I don’t disagree but I just don’t see a scenario that he doesn’t return next year with 7 or more wins. I could be wrong though. I’m not convinced we get to 7 wins, but the one thing his teams have is no quit. They may lack talent and execution, they’ve more often than not competed.

 

[WVUALLEN]

At the end of the day, the record speaks for itself. This is the worst stretch of any WVU HC since the 1970’s under Cignetti.

In first 51 games
Neal 25-26 (5-2 in last 7 games both losses to top 10 Schools)
Dana 28-23
Stewart won 28 in 3 years
Rod 30-21
Nehlen 36-15
Cignetti 17-27

 

[WVUALLEN]

I don’t disagree but I just don’t see a scenario that he doesn’t return next year with 7 or more wins. I could be wrong though. I’m not convinced we get to 7 wins, but the one thing his teams have is no quit. They may lack talent and execution, they’ve more often than not competed.

He goes 7-5 I can guarantee you he will be here next year.

 

[deedoubleyou]

He goes 7-5 I can guarantee you he will be here next year.

WVU admin is looking for any reason not to pay the buyout, so 7 wins will probably be enough. Should 7 wins in his 5th season be good enough for the WVU football program, fans and state? Not at all, but they will save millions and that is bottom line.

 

[WVUALLEN]

WVU admin is looking for any reason not to pay the buyout, so 7 wins will probably be enough. Should 7 wins in his 5th season be good enough for the WVU football program, fans and state? Not at all, but they will save millions and that is bottom line.

Brown has four seasons remaining on his contract. The two-year extension signed in 2021 keeps him under contract through the 2026 season. His salary for 2023 is $4 million up from $3.5 million in 2022 and increases by $1 million in each of the next two years before a $2-million raise in 2026.
If fired before Dec. 31, 2024, Brown is owed 100% of the remaining contract.

For example, if Brown is fired on Nov. 26, 2023 — one day after the end of the regular season — his buyout would be approximately $13 million.

If he’s fired immediately after the 2024 regular season, his buyout would be approximately $9 million. That figure could be reduced to $7.3 million if West Virginia waits until Jan. 1, 2025, to make the move, though the history of college football coaching changes suggests waiting five weeks to save $1.7 million is unlikely.

If fired between Jan. 1, 2025 and Dec. 31, 2026, he’s owed 85% of the remaining contract.

It may never be affordable to fire Brown and just let his contract expire instead.

Now you know why Shane Lyons was canned.

Neal Brown's West Virginia Contract: What's Neal Brown's Buyout if Fired?

Read contract and buyout details for West Virginia head coach Neal Brown.

sports.betmgm.com

 

[ThePunish-EER]

Brown has four seasons remaining on his contract. The two-year extension signed in 2021 keeps him under contract through the 2026 season. His salary for 2023 is $4 million up from $3.5 million in 2022 and increases by $1 million in each of the next two years before a $2-million raise in 2026.
If fired before Dec. 31, 2024, Brown is owed 100% of the remaining contract.

For example, if Brown is fired on Nov. 26, 2023 — one day after the end of the regular season — his buyout would be approximately $13 million.

If he’s fired immediately after the 2024 regular season, his buyout would be approximately $9 million. That figure could be reduced to $7.3 million if West Virginia waits until Jan. 1, 2025, to make the move, though the history of college football coaching changes suggests waiting five weeks to save $1.7 million is unlikely.

If fired between Jan. 1, 2025 and Dec. 31, 2026, he’s owed 85% of the remaining contract.

It may never be affordable to fire Brown and just let his contract expire instead.

Now you know why Shane Lyons was canned.

Neal Brown's West Virginia Contract: What's Neal Brown's Buyout if Fired?

Read contract and buyout details for West Virginia head coach Neal Brown.

sports.betmgm.com

Let’s hope Brown does a 360 like Frank Beamer did at VTech and starts winning.

 

[WVUALLEN]

Let’s hope Brown does a 360 like Frank Beamer did at VTech and starts winning.

I wouldn't bet on it.

 

[deedoubleyou]

Let’s hope Brown does a 360 like Frank Beamer did at VTech and starts winning.

It would be the best thing that could happen but I just cant even imagine it getting much better than what we have got out of him already. McAfee is right, Brown has no moxie. That is a very basic way of explaining it but its way more than that. He is the weakest, least 'manly' football coach I've ever seen in my life lol. I'll leave it at that....

 

[Soaring Eagle 74]

I expected a childish reply from you. I got it. Enjoy being the first ever poster to be ignored by me.

Pot meet kettle.

 

[WVUALLEN]

Pot meet kettle.

Nobody smokes pot like a liberal does.

 

[westsiderSJHS77]

Some one is complaining about winning low scoring games. They must be ready to tar and feather coach Day at Ohio State for just eeking out that game Saturday night.

 

[jlaudiomaster]

Some one is complaining about winning low scoring games. They must be ready to tar and feather coach Day at Ohio State for just eeking out that game Saturday night.

What I’d give to see Brown beat a top 10 opponent, regardless of score…