Stewart Mandel on Dana Holgorsen's "hot seat"

[OLD TIME MOUNTAINEER]

Again...just how then has DH done better? When has he had a better class? It is just BS to say he is a better recruiter. Keeps patching holes with junior college players who have to play right away to help. He is a poooooooooooor recruiter.

Poor recruiter? JC players are part of the recruiting equation. You do know you have to recruit JC players to come to WVU right? Recruiting from this staff has gotten progressively better as Dana has learned more about what it takes to be a head coach. His staff is made up from coaches who recruit very well. If you don't think the last few classes are as good as we have recruited here in a long time your not paying attention. When Doc was here he recruited well for Stew. However, when Doc left things dropped off drastically. He always go some talent but the numbers dropped and after a few years of that we were in deep trouble.

 

[5150]

Poor recruiter? JC players are part of the recruiting equation. You do know you have to recruit JC players to come to WVU right? Recruiting from this staff has gotten progressively better as Dana has learned more about what it takes to be a head coach. His staff is made up from coaches who recruit very well. If you don't think the last few classes are as good as we have recruited here in a long time your not paying attention. When Doc was here he recruited well for Stew. However, when Doc left things dropped off drastically. He always go some talent but the numbers dropped and after a few years of that we were in deep trouble.

Recruiting talent is not the problem. Winning games is the issue

 

[BobbyBoucheer]

During the run up to the NC game this year Dabo Sweeney was quoted as saying "we were shocked to find out during the Orange Bowl with WVU that they had more team speed and depth then we did so we made changes to our we recruited"

He said nothing about depth. It was speed. Les Miles also mentioned WVU speed.

 

[Rootmaster]

When Doc was here he recruited well for Stew. However, when Doc left things dropped off drastically.

LOL...then why didn't Luck chose him as HC as opposed to a midwestern red bull siping dude who knew nothing about WVU's recruiting grounds? DH isn't a good recruiter. He is a good scrambler however forever filling holes in his classes with JC guys.

 

[planebill]

It was on a video interview, discussed on this board after said. I guess you missed that discussion. The thing that came out of the interview was how Dabo was acting like the CEO leader of the program and doing what was needed to improve. I NEVER see Dana looking at the program and discussing what needs to improve for us to get to the next level.

I'm huge Stew fan. I knew him personally, although admittedly decades before he was HC at WVU. However what you have not considered is that a wonderfully talented Orange Bowl team had arrived having survived a Big East season. Virtually impossible in the B12 given the same schedule. Depth of talent is one thing Dana has done well with and IMO will finally begin to pay dividends. The O must be good, very good, this year or he is toast. The D is replacing major talent but if I'm correct you will not see a complete rebuild this year. Overall 2016 will be a measurably better season than '15. (I will also add that 2017 may well be a HUGE year) This is why Holgs didn't sign Lyon's reasonable contract, offered based on summation of pure results to date. Holgs knows his stock rises next year ('16) based on what he sees in the cupboard, so why sign? Two reasonable men doing business. I'm quite optimistic but if this team fails to achieve, I'd say 8 wins (7 absolute minimum) the next HC inherits a team ready for greatness - even in the B12.

 

[MountaineerGuy]

I'm huge Stew fan. I knew him personally, although admittedly decades before he was HC at WVU. However what you have not considered is that a wonderfully talented Orange Bowl team had arrived having survived a Big East season. Virtually impossible in the B12 given the same schedule. Depth of talent is one thing Dana has done well with and IMO will finally begin to pay dividends. The O must be good, very good, this year or he is toast. The D is replacing major talent but if I'm correct you will not see a complete rebuild this year. Overall 2016 will be a measurably better season than '15. (I will also add that 2017 may well be a HUGE year) This is why Holgs didn't sign Lyon's reasonable contract, offered based on summation of pure results to date. Holgs knows his stock rises next year ('16) based on what he sees in the cupboard, so why sign? Two reasonable men doing business. I'm quite optimistic but if this team fails to achieve, I'd say 8 wins (7 absolute minimum) the next HC inherits a team ready for greatness - even in the B12.

really good assessment, Bill. I like your points you make here.

 

[5150]

He said nothing about depth. It was speed. Les Miles also mentioned WVU speed.

he also mentioned depth

 

[KeatonsCorner]

he also mentioned depth

Even if he did, it was BS, one-liner off the cuff in an interview.............. He has/had no idea what our depth looked like in 2012. It's no different than the Stache saying "We need to run faster"



Go buy new grapes.............. your's are still sour

 

[GoWVU]

It was on a video interview, discussed on this board after said. I guess you missed that discussion.

Probably so. I'm not a person who watches many linked videos.

The thing that came out of the interview was how Dabo was acting like the CEO leader of the program and doing what was needed to improve. I NEVER see Dana looking at the program and discussing what needs to improve for us to get to the next level.

Your last sentence there seems like a pretty dubious claim. Did you ever consider Holgorsen might be doing exactly those things, but having the discussions privately with the AD and administration?

In any event, thanks for the response.

 

[5150]

Probably so. I'm not a person who watches many linked videos.Your last sentence there seems like a pretty dubious claim. Did you ever consider Holgorsen might be doing exactly those things, but having the discussions privately with the AD and administration?

In any event, thanks for the response.

Well, the difference is Dabo communicates that vision to his fan base to give them the feeling he is in charge and leading the program. So, IF, Dana is doing that then his mistake is not being able to communicate to the stakeholders of the program

 

[michaelwalkerbr]

Coach Holgorsen is well established as not enjoying talking to anyone besides his family, close friends, coaches, and team. He is not good at PR or fundraisers. He seems to enjoy making comments during a post-game presser after a win, but does not like taking questions. He would do well to appoint Associate Head Coach Tony Gibson to handle the PR side.

 

[xWVU2010x]

If he wins 9 or more I see HIM looking for a job to get away from management that is cooler than luke-warm toward him. I see him leaving no matter the record.Too bad for WVU. The staff looks solid. Recruiting is greatly improved from the Stewart years. I saw a bright future until Lyons made his mistakes.Now--not so much.

He is going to leave either by us firing him, or him leaving for the first P5 offer that comes his way. If he leaves on his own because of a big season this year, it will have little to do with how the WVU admin treated him and more to do with he was always a mercenary head coach here. Not sure how anyone expects the WVU admin to treat him, some on here still think hes Christ on a football field or something, he is a middle of the road HC that they did not hire. You do not just take a hot shot coordinator with no school, state, or regional ties at a program like ours and expect a 10+ year marriage. The extenuating circumstances that have allowed this to continue as long as it has is the gray area he continues to navigate of not sucking enough to get fired, but not good enough to drum up interest from a program that would be a lateral move or a step up.

 

[michaelwalkerbr]

If Coach Holgorsen has double digit wins this year I do not see him going anywhere. He gets a raise and contract extension. The man has built a big, beautiful house here after living in motels for years. He has the assistants in place and growing depth and talent. He will finally have someone in the booth he respects enough to call timeout and challenge him on a called play or strategy. 2016 could be good, but 2017 could be special. As his resume' builds the right way.

As far as Lyons goes, doesn't everyone hate their boss?

 

[Andhelfer]

Holgs will stay i think people want him to leave and fanning those flames will be our mistake!!!

 

[GoWVU]

Well, the difference is Dabo communicates that vision to his fan base to give them the feeling he is in charge and leading the program. So, IF, Dana is doing that then his mistake is not being able to communicate to the stakeholders of the program

It's being unfair to Holgorsen to call that a "mistake".

A coach's primary job is to win games. Everything else is secondary. I wouldn't want a coach who communicates constantly to us, because at some point that takes away from the time spent on what really matters.

You can certainly state a personal preference for a more verbose coach, just remember it has minimal importance in the big picture. Whether it's the folksy and open Bobby Bowden or the dour and secretive Bill Belichick, all types of people and leadership styles can and do succeed. Dabo is a Bowden, Dana is someone else entirely. It's not fair to criticize him for his inherent personality.

In the specific case of Holgorsen, ask yourself this: Is his time better spent explaining to us how he PLANS to take the program to another level, or working behind the scenes to actually achieve it?

Some of us are already unhappy with Holgorsen's performance to date. A coach in that position doesn't also need to be wasting time on communicating a bunch of grandiose ideas for the future, because if he can't begin winning more games in the present he won't have a future.

No, I'd say Holgorsen's focus is probably right where it needs to be. Whether he can deliver results on that is another matter.

 

[WV Bruno]

I'm not seeing all the talent some are talking about. Howard still needs to prove he can make the big play against the great teams. The 3rd and 7s when the game is on the line. There is no depth at tailback as of now. The defense is rebuilding. This season can go anywhere from 6-6 to 10-2 depending on many variables. My thinking is many of the tough games are at home and this team might just be hungry.

 

[5150]

It's being unfair to Holgorsen to call that a "mistake".

A coach's primary job is to win games. Everything else is secondary. I wouldn't want a coach who communicates constantly to us, because at some point that takes away from the time spent on what really matters.

You can certainly state a personal preference for a more verbose coach, just remember it has minimal importance in the big picture. Whether it's the folksy and open Bobby Bowden or the dour and secretive Bill Belichick, all types of people and leadership styles can and do succeed. Dabo is a Bowden, Dana is someone else entirely. It's not fair to criticize him for his inherent personality.

In the specific case of Holgorsen, ask yourself this: Is his time better spent explaining to us how he PLANS to take the program to another level, or working behind the scenes to actually achieve it?

Some of us are already unhappy with Holgorsen's performance to date. A coach in that position doesn't also need to be wasting time on communicating a bunch of grandiose ideas for the future, because if he can't begin winning more games in the present he won't have a future.

No, I'd say Holgorsen's focus is probably right where it needs to be. Whether he can deliver results on that is another matter.

Well Nick Saban and Dabo do it and they both played in the NC game. LOL. Its the difference in just being a coach and the leader of your program. The issue is here Dana is not doing either well.

 

[HurdyGurdyEer]

Nope, there's nothing to it at all. Any coach who had posted a 26-25 record since joining the Big 12 would be as secure as a Supreme Court justice.

Hey look .... another chat board source.
Thanks for reinforcing the idea that the only real source of "hot seat " talk is fans on a chat board.

REALITY: Dana's contract was not renewed because the two sides could not agree. You can take that any way you want to take it.

For example ..... If Dana comes out and has a real good season then that puts Lyons on the hot seat to dish up a better option for contract renewal than last offered. Wouldn't that be a funny thing in light of popular "wisdom".

Or if the season is a stinkaroo then Dana loses any leverage in contract renegotiation. Then he probably really is on the hot seat.

But up to this point, because of his contract, hot seat talk has been just that ..... talk, or in other words .... chat board gossip.

 

[GetYaNumbersUp]

Well Nick Saban and Dabo do it and they both played in the NC game. LOL. Its the difference in just being a coach and the leader of your program. The issue is here Dana is not doing either well.

You serious? Nick Saban hates the media and never panders to them nor does he blow smoke up the ass of the fanbase.

 

[GoWVU]

Hey look .... another chat board source.
Thanks for reinforcing the idea that the only real source of "hot seat " talk is fans on a chat board.

Irony: HurdyGurdy proclaiming emphatically with his own personal message-board chatter that all Holgorsen hot-seat talk is nothing more than message-board chatter.

I never claimed to be a "source." However, I do know how to read. Mandel's article specifically mentioned Holgorsen hot-seat talk dating to 2013. He didn't cite sources, but my experience with sports writers tells me it's far more likely to come from industry contacts than message boards.

We also know for a fact Luck made a public statement in 2013 that Holgorsen needed to meet higher expectations in 2014. Holgorsen's mediocre record speaks for itself, as does the fact that the two sides failed to agree on an extension in recent months.

Each of those four things is a piece of factual evidence not stemming from message boards.

 

[michaelwalkerbr]

Co

Irony: HurdyGurdy proclaiming emphatically with his own personal message-board chatter that all Holgorsen hot-seat talk is nothing more than message-board chatter.

I never claimed to be a "source." However, I do know how to read. Mandel's article specifically mentioned Holgorsen hot-seat talk dating to 2013. He didn't cite sources, but my experience with sports writers tells me it's far more likely to come from industry contacts than message boards.

We also know for a fact Luck made a public statement in 2013 that Holgorsen needed to meet higher expectations in 2014. Holgorsen's mediocre record speaks for itself, as does the fact that the two sides failed to agree on an extension in recent months.

Each of those four things is a piece of factual evidence not stemming from message boards.

It's also been shown at least by circumstantial as well as limited direct evidence that Coach Holgorsen is a gambler. He showed it by going to the Tri-State Casino, at first hiring old friends for assistants, and some risky play calling in pivotal situations that would have been called 'gutsy' if they had worked. If he doesn't play poker, he should.

Coach Holgorsen was offered a 'safe' contract extension based upon his performance so far. Instead of calling Lyon's hand he raised it without looking at his cards. To complete this perhaps tenuous metaphor, his cards are the 2016 season. Lyons will see his raise of the bet and call him on it in December. May the best hand win.

 

[5150]

You serious? Nick Saban hates the media and never panders to them nor does he blow smoke up the ass of the fanbase.

Did you read the conversation. Its discussing how head coaches communicate to their stakeholders. If you define stakeholders its much more then media

 

[GetYaNumbersUp]

Did you read the conversation. Its discussing how head coaches communicate to their stakeholders. If you define stakeholders its much more then media

Did you see the part where I mentioned fan base? Or do you define stakeholders differently in the context of college football?

 

[michaelwalkerbr]

Did you read the conversation. Its discussing how head coaches communicate to their stakeholders. If you define stakeholders its much more then media

It's very much about the major donors. They expect to be placated, pacified, pandered to and have their asses kissed. They also expect the head coaches as well as the A D to return their calls and at least hear them out. That much is quid pro quo. Holgs apparently doesn't play along. I am not judging him for it, that just seems to be who he is.

 

[5150]

Did you see the part where I mentioned fan base? Or do you define stakeholders differently in the context of college football?

trust me, Saban is communicating his vision to his stakeholders

 

[5150]

It's very much about the major donors. They expect to be placated, pacified, pandered to and have their asses kissed. They also expect the head coaches as well as the A D to return their calls and at least hear them out. That much is quid pro quo. Holgs apparently doesn't play along. I am not judging him for it, that just seems to be who he is.

No Holgs does not do this well at all. I have heard a story of Dana actually getting into an argument with an alum at a fundraiser early at WVU. Ollie stop taking him after the event.

 

[GetYaNumbersUp]

trust me, Saban is communicating his vision to his stakeholders

Lol, sure. We'll "trust you"

You are such an unbiased source.

 

[GoWVU]

Co


It's also been shown at least by circumstantial as well as limited direct evidence that Coach Holgorsen is a gambler. He showed it by going to the Tri-State Casino, at first hiring old friends for assistants, and some risky play calling in pivotal situations that would have been called 'gutsy' if they had worked. If he doesn't play poker, he should.

Coach Holgorsen was offered a 'safe' contract extension based upon his performance so far. Instead of calling Lyon's hand he raised it without looking at his cards. To complete this perhaps tenuous metaphor, his cards are the 2016 season. Lyons will see his raise of the bet and call him on it in December. May the best hand win.

Agreed on pretty much all of that. When it comes to the extension subject, Holgorsen seems to be acting consistently with what we know and have observed of his personality.

 

[dogeered_again]

Agreed on pretty much all of that. When it comes to the extension subject, Holgorsen seems to be acting consistently with what we know and have observed of his personality.

I guess I'm not sure which allegation I'm responding to, but I will admit there was a certain incident in a casino awhile back... much ado about nothing IMO. If the allegation is he's a "gambler" and might be gambling with his contract extension... what do we really know. Lyons may have only offered him a one year extension with no buy out and relatively little increase in pay. What would that do for him? Not a whole lot. It might have been taken as a slap in the face. But, maybe it was a two year extension with nominal increases based upon certain milestones which might be out of the control of the coach. My point is, it may have been so one-sided that even I might roll the dice on that.

 

[LowFatMilk]

I actually agree that DH likes to roll with gut feelings (while I prefer seeing a coach typically using statistics, flow of the game, or completely unexpected calls) to make game day decisions....

....but going to a casino doesn't mean you're actually a gambler. At least in the context that catching a football in the backyard doesn't make a person a football player.

I go to the casino all the time FOR ENTERTAINMENT despite completely understanding the odds. I'd never take those odds in my personal life (on a regular basis) and certainly NEVER at work.

I could really rant on that point...but sharing my opinion is enough (for now).

 

[michaelwalkerbr]

I guess I'm not sure which allegation I'm responding to, but I will admit there was a certain incident in a casino awhile back... much ado about nothing IMO. If the allegation is he's a "gambler" and might be gambling with his contract extension... what do we really know. Lyons may have only offered him a one year extension with no buy out and relatively little increase in pay. What would that do for him? Not a whole lot. It might have been taken as a slap in the face. But, maybe it was a two year extension with nominal increases based upon certain milestones which might be out of the control of the coach. My point is, it may have been so one-sided that even I might roll the dice on that.

No offense, but you missed the whole point.

 

[michaelwalkerbr]

I actually agree that DH likes to roll with gut feelings (while I prefer seeing a coach typically using statistics, flow of the game, or completely unexpected calls) to make game day decisions....

....but going to a casino doesn't mean you're actually a gambler. At least in the context that catching a football in the backyard doesn't make a person a football player.

I go to the casino all the time FOR ENTERTAINMENT despite completely understanding the odds. I'd never take those odds in my personal life (on a regular basis) and certainly NEVER at work.

I could really rant on that point...but sharing my opinion is enough (for now).

You missed it also. It was not a critique, just an extrapolation. Holgorsen seems to be one who is willing to take chances. His whole HC future rides on the 2016 season. Right now his HC resume is very mediocre. This year could change that dramatically either way.

 

[LowFatMilk]

You stating that multiple people missed your point is evidence that you didn't express it very well.

I just took the time to read it again while keeping your most recent post in mind...and my reply still seems 'on point'.

 

[HurdyGurdyEer]

Irony: HurdyGurdy proclaiming emphatically with his own personal message-board chatter that all Holgorsen hot-seat talk is nothing more than message-board chatter.

I never claimed to be a "source." However, I do know how to read. Mandel's article specifically mentioned Holgorsen hot-seat talk dating to 2013. He didn't cite sources, but my experience with sports writers tells me it's far more likely to come from industry contacts than message boards.

We also know for a fact Luck made a public statement in 2013 that Holgorsen needed to meet higher expectations in 2014. Holgorsen's mediocre record speaks for itself, as does the fact that the two sides failed to agree on an extension in recent months.

Each of those four things is a piece of factual evidence not stemming from message boards.

.... up to this point, because of his contract, hot seat talk has been just that ..... talk, or in other words .... chat board gossip that was regurgitated by sports writers looking for a story.

 

[michaelwalkerbr]

OK, "Now what we have here is failure to communicate. Now I don't like this any better than you do, but it's the way he wants it so it's the way he gets it." (Cool hand Luke). Or as the late, great Gilda Radner would say as Rosanne Rosannadanna, "Never mind."

It really doesn't freak'n matter. I was simply trying and obviously failing to say that Coach Dana Holgorsen is willing to gamble with his future. Does anyone not understand that? Or better yet, can anyone here understand that? He turned down a sure thing contract which none of us know the details of in hopes of getting a better one at the end of 2016.

 

[LowFatMilk]

Not taking an offer doesn't = gambling.

I know...that wasn't your point despite the words you typed.

 

[michaelwalkerbr]

Not taking an offer doesn't = gambling.

I know...that wasn't your point despite the words you typed.

It was indeed my point. If this season goes South, Dana Holgorsen will likely be fired. If it goes unexpectedly well, he will likely be offered a raise and contract extension more to his liking. That is a gamble and not hard to understand. Are you guys his lawyers, or merely his apologists? I did not even criticize him.

 

[LowFatMilk]

It was indeed my point. If this season goes South, Dana Holgorsen will likely be fired. If it goes unexpectedly well, he will likely be offered a raise and contract extension more to his liking. That is a gamble and not hard to understand. Are you guys his lawyers, or merely his apologists? I did not even criticize him.

If you didn't criticize then suggesting (you guys) I am an apologist would seem silly. ...and it did.

DH is now extremely wealthy. DH will EASILY get another well paying job. It's not a gamble (in that casino kind of way). It's no diff than you shopping around for another job...or simply not accepting whatever your current company is offering. What do some people refer to it as....oh yea, the American way.

 

[michaelwalkerbr]

Do you have any idea how ridiculous that reads? If I do not accept what my company is offering and shop around for a better paying job am I not taking a gamble? I at least have enough respect to call him Coach Holgorsen instead of DH, but at this point his head coaching resume' is mediocre at best for a power 5 position.

 

[LowFatMilk]

Do you have any idea how ridiculous that reads? If I do not accept what my company is offering and shop around for a better paying job am I not taking a gamble? I at least have enough respect to call him Coach Holgorsen instead of DH, but at this point his head coaching resume' is mediocre at best for a power 5 position.

Lol... ....DH instead of using his full name or title on a forum is disrespectful... ...yet you refer to his gambling at a casino as a fault? Good stuff. Maybe you should start replying to me as Mrs. Orlaco or I might get upset.

I suppose eveybody that has turned down a new contract from their current company can be found at the closet casino ?