Look at LSU- fired and a lot more success than Holgorsen
I am tired of recruiting talk.and someday and if he can only
Win, win, win - administration is done with this coach
Here is my honest opinion of what is about to happen
- Thread starter JohnnyDrama388
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I am tired of recruiting talk.and someday and if he can only
Win, win, win - administration is done with this coach
I just can't believe Chi-town Johnny got ...well...40 replies (one of which is from his $hit disturbing jackwagon self, and one from over here, OOPS )...how bout a big atta boy for Chi-town Johnny! Hip hip hooray!!!
I have noticed there are quite a few posters who's dislike for coach Holgerson is personal but with that being said there are also those who hold a personal grudge towards Shane Lyons for not giving coach Holgorson a contract extension and the way it was handled in the PR department. In the end the main job of an athletic director is to Fund raise, run the day to day operations of the entire athletic department as efficiently as possible. If you can't provide proof how well Shane Lyons is as a fund raiser or how efficient the athletic department is being run then you should withhold criticism of him. The one thing I have noticed about AD's are they seem to be Public relation gaffe machines. The current AD of Lsu, The Ad of USC, Steve Pedersen tenure at Nebraska. There was quite allot of complaining about Oliver lucks handling of Bill Stewart's dismissal. When it comes to Luck he was as bare knuckle of an Ad as they come. He Stated that he didn't feel that Bill Stewart would win a national championship and dismissed him after three 9 win seasons. Anyone who thinks that Oliver luck would have given coach Holgorson a contract extension needs to get there head out of that place where the sun doesn't shine. The big 12 might be better tougher than the big east but 8-5 isn't acceptable in Oliver Lucks world. Shane Lyons might have done coach Holgorson a favor by allowing him to coach this season for all we know. Currently we are 3-0 and entering conference play. we all need to sit back and relax and let the situation play out for Coach Holgorson and AD Lyons. Coach Holgorson has a golden opportunity to exceed the 7-5,4-5 Big 12 record with the shape of the conference this season and Shane Lyons has a perfect opportunity to Fire coach Holgorson if he can't pass that threshold. Let the chips fall where they may.
Two issues to start with (and save space): 1) the idiocy of changing the contractual arrangements with the non-coordinator assistant coaches. This move makes it clear that he wants to be unimpeded by contract when he decides to cut a coach or sweep out the entire staff. NO SECURITY for them. Thus, they are always going to be looking over their shoulder and looking for a landing spot. The lifeblood of any program is recruiting. Good recruiting comes from a stable staff that sells this issue to recruits. Without security the staff may be in turmoil each year and the kids can be granted no guarantees regarding the staff, 2) his handling of the no contract extension for Dana was bush league management, with one aspect being his releasing negotiating details to the press. His actions had the effect (I believe totally intended by the AD) of casting Dana in bad light to gain favor for himself. It worked to some degree as several on this forum lined up against Dana and made unkind and non supportive statements. I have stated numerous times that I will be surprised if Dana is our coach in 2017. He does not will to the degree desired by Mr. Lyons (probably only know to Mr. Lyons, BTW) and he is fired (along with most of the staff that many have said is a good one and are doing well on the recruiting front). If he wins big I see him being prominent in the 'coaching sweepstakes' and eagerly seeking a job with better security, overseen by someone with enough experience to qualify as a leader and better supported than he has experienced in Morgantown. No matter the route, the program suffers with all aspects having to regroup/rebuild for several years. IMO, the candidates many have proposed as replacements are far inferior to Dana--Tressel, Terry Bowden, RR, Kiffen, Tony Gibson, Mullen, Miles, others...
You are way off in your assessment that "..main job of an athletic director is to Fund raise..." True, hat is a component of the job. But, he is also the Chief Executive Officer of the Athletic Department. He is the top MANAGER of personnel and operations. He IS responsible for PR and, by extension, the morale and consideration afforded the department. He is to insure that ALL actions ae to move the department forward and do everything possible to maintain the highest level of positivity possible. ALL thses aspects contribute to his ability to actually perform the function that youy have dwelt on--raise money. Show that you cannot handle the jobs for which you are responsible and those with money will hesitate be to generous.
What exactly is you're experience as an AD? What qualifies you to make these assertions? How many competent AD's would have given DH a contact extension based on current results? Assistance coaches are always on the move Wvu isn't exactly the highest paying job. Any coach that has success will probably move on. In the end if a coach wants leverage they have to win. DH is not in the position to dictate terms. If he wants more leverage then win more simple as that. Coaches that win 7-8 games in today's college football don't get contract extensions they get fired its the same everywhere deal with it.
He may be off on his assessment of The AD job but is he off when he said That OL wouldn't have given DH a contract extension? Think before you respond
My bubble never bursts but gets stronger with every reply. How is your suck going for Cuyahoga Falls Eers going?
The truth is that most of this talk about firing Holgorsen probably comes from people who are mostly just trying to borrow someone else's power.
Let's make this conversation real.
How about Johnny D take a minute to explain what he means by "common sense and vibes." For all I know he had a bad cup of coffee and is experiencing some turbulence in his tummy.
Spell it out Johnny ..... explain what you mean by "common sense" and "vibes."
Short of that I will be forced to conclude that you're talking off the top of your head.... you know .... pure speculation .... BS.
Hey ... Holgorsen may leave or be let go ..... but I can find no vibe or anything that says he NEEDS a 9-3 regular season to retain his job.
Let's make this conversation real.
How about Johnny D take a minute to explain what he means by "common sense and vibes." For all I know he had a bad cup of coffee and is experiencing some turbulence in his tummy.
Spell it out Johnny ..... explain what you mean by "common sense" and "vibes."
Short of that I will be forced to conclude that you're talking off the top of your head.... you know .... pure speculation .... BS.
Hey ... Holgorsen may leave or be let go ..... but I can find no vibe or anything that says he NEEDS a 9-3 regular season to retain his job.
I don't know the new AD well enough to render an opinion on him, but I know that what he offered him is the most I would have done in his spot. A couple extra years at a slightly higher wage (does he really deserve to be paid above the 7th or 8th in this league?) with a dramatically reduced/eliminated severance package.
Dana made this bed. He really can't get mad that the mattress is lumpy and uncomfortable.
Dana made this bed. He really can't get mad that the mattress is lumpy and uncomfortable.
We don't really know what was put on the table, we can only speculate.
However, if rumors are true it wasn't a reduce severance package. It was a removal of contractually owed income from WVU to DH.
If that's true, then Lyons wasn't actually negotiating an extension. He would have been re-negotiating Dana's current contract.
The issue for most people isn't that the deal failed to get made, but that Lyons took the negotiation into the press.
As far as Dana being mad, he may be but he's the only one who handled the situation professionally.
What evidence is there that Dana is mad about anything?
I mean .... seriously .... are we just making up stuff here?
I think some of you just make up things about people so that in your own mind you are justified in knocking them down.
It would have given him at least an extra year of employment than he has on his current contract, so it was an extension. In exchange for that extension, he was going to have to re-frame any exit he has from WVU. Considering his overall performance here....I have no qualms with that.
People gave Lyons grief for this approach, but he was addressing the chicken littles that were accusing WVU of putting our program in a bad spot for recruiting and acting like Lyons was ignoring this issue. He was direct and gave an honest account to assure that we took an appropriate measure to fix this and that Dana refused. Again, I would have done the same thing. Why should Lyons take the fall for Dana refusing to sign an extension? If he didn't like the terms, he should have won more and his severance package wouldn't have been an issue in the first place. Winning fixes a lot of problems.
a lot of people in the ADs office are really high on Tony Gibson.
Makes some sense, since he is from WV and a good defensive coordinator.
i don't think he has the "star" quality that we need in a head coach;
I think he would bring back Lonnie Galloway and make him offensive coordinator
Keep most of the other staff in place. Hire a new QB coach maybe....
Makes some sense, since he is from WV and a good defensive coordinator.
i don't think he has the "star" quality that we need in a head coach;
I think he would bring back Lonnie Galloway and make him offensive coordinator
Keep most of the other staff in place. Hire a new QB coach maybe....
Re-frame any exit he has from WVU?
That sounds like a round-a-bout way of saying he had to re-negotiate his current contract to get an extension, which is exactly what I said Lyons attempted and you're trying to deny.
Again, we don't know what was exactly put on the table, but under your scenario Dana would be required to give up income contractually owed to him by WVU.
It's not a severance package. It's his contractually owed income. Do you understand there is a difference?
What you call direct and honest, I call amateur. All he needed to say was something generic such as, "It's something we are moving towards", or "We've had discussions and hopefully we get something worked out".
Dana refused because he's not stupid. Can't blame him for that. Lyons took the negotiation into the press, not Dana. Lyons tossed him under the bus, not the other way around. Negotiating with coaches is part of his job and he can't run to the press every time he doesn't get his way.
You might do the same thing, which would be expected because you have no clue what you'd be doing.
I have been around the football program since the early 1960s and watched more than one game from the coaching booth in both the old and new stadiums. I remember when the so called football fans and administration ran Bobby Bowden off and saw Don Nehlen win with the team Frank Cignetti and his assistants had built and like you I am not looking forward to another 5 years of chaos and confusion as saint salvation whoever he is is proven to be unable to walk on water. WVU paid the price for educating Dana as a head coach and we should take the merchandise we paid for as opposed to letting some other school get the benefit of that expensive education in how to be a head coach. I am well aware of the realities of the coaching profession and would never blame a coach for taking what he considers a better job example John Beline but given the way Rodrigues left and the bridges he burnt I would not support his ever coming back
There are many GMs on the pro level that have done/do the exact same thing...and they obviously know better than you on how to use the media as a leverage tool.
Dana has done nothing to deserve the velvet glove treatment. I would argue that Bill Stewart was given a much more raw deal from Oliver Luck when he openly ripped on his performance at WVU when announcing the hiring of Dana ( and I'm not a Stewpologist). I think most people would agree that Luck (outside of Dana's contract) was at worst a very good AD....so your opinion of what is "amateur" is a pretty weak one.
I do know the difference between a severance package and contractually owed money, but in the context of this issue the difference is irrelevant because both can be negotiated the same way. In the end, as it stands, there would be an amount of money he gets if he's fired after this season.
Does it really matter what the title of that money is? Is one harder to make go away away than the other if mutually agreed upon?
The issue is not irrelevant.
Dana has contractually owed money to him by WVU. It's not part of a severance package, which is something entirely different. His contractually owed money can only "go away" if Dana would agree to change the current contract and forfeit that income. So was Lyons really negotiating an extension, or was he simply trying to shred Dana's existing contract under the ruse of an extension?
Dana walked away from it, so you know he at least thought it was a bad deal. Can't blame a man for that.
So what leverage did Lyons gain? Nothing. If you want to GAIN leverage, you do it BEFORE negotiations are finished. That's 101 level stuff, don't you think?
P.S. I hated the Luck/Stewart situation and HCIW. I complained about it when it happened and everyone here said I was stupid and Luck knew what he was doing and I was basically having the same conversations I'm having now over this issue.
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I like Dana but with the poor defense we have every year it's hard to imagine we will ever be an elite team in conference. Five years is enough. The next guy is going to have to be a proven head coach and have an OSU connection. With the resignation of the Miss. State athletic director this week and a less than stellar 2016 season Mullen may reason it's time to move on.
I'm pretty much in agreement with this sentiment. The question I have is whether or not we'll be hearing Dana, at another school, saying, a la Bobby Bowden, "I learned how to be a head coach at West Virginia."
Who, in their right mind, enters into a less stable agreement than the one they already have and will still exist for a couple of years?
It's absolutely irrelevant...but I don't expect you to admit otherwise.
1) Would the money spend differently?
2) Taxed differently?
3) Due at a different time if he was terminated at the end of this season? (In other words, would he get one version later than the other)
4) Is one able to be renegotiated and the other not as much so?
For this context....there is no difference. Different definitions...same outcome.
Why would negotiations be "finished" at the time of that quote? Dana very easily could have come back to the table at any time...so of course negotiations weren't finished. If Dana called the day after that quote and said he reconsidered, would Lyons have refused to get that deal done? Again, Lyons is new and felt the heat for Dana's situation and was hearing that he wasn't being proactive about it. I can't imagine any better way to describe what had happened than what he said, but I guess I appreciate transparency more than you do.
And I don't blame Dana on walking away. I just think it was a dumb move unless he is certain they are going to get rid of him no matter what he does in 2016....which I don't think would be the case. If he gets 7 wins or less this year, it will be a long time before a P5 team would touch him as a HC.
