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The number of monotheistic religions. The difference between public and personal. The generic nature of “God.”@CAJUNEER re: Dabo thread.. not sure i'm following "No. I think you are coming from a place of misconception." What do you feel i am misconceiving?
you could be right.. can you shed more light and be more specific?The number of monotheistic religions. The difference between public and personal. The generic nature of “God.”
Maybe let’s start here with what you think Dabo did wrong.you could be right.. can you shed more light and be more specific?
but.. i don't think Dabo was intending to be generic in his use of God.. and my only basic point remains.. which is, as a leader of a multicultural, multireligious, secular organization (i.e., Clemson is public and not a private religious-based institution), it struck me as odd that he would sell his program in that way since it would narrow his target market.The number of monotheistic religions. The difference between public and personal. The generic nature of “God.”
you honestly believe he was using the generic term god and not the God of the Christian/Jewish faith? He's promoted his Christian beliefs before in the context of his program, why would he be generic now?I think Dabo has personal beliefs but was careful not to be specific.
He’s openly a Christian. If he wasn’t trying to be specific why not mention Jesus?you honestly believe he was using the generic term god and not the God of the Christian/Jewish faith? He's promoted his Christian beliefs before in the context of his program, why would he be generic now?
And, what if I'm a player (subordinate), recruit (prospect) or fan (customer) of Clemson and don't believe in any gods at all.. is he saying this isn't the program for me, and if so is that OK?
in general I am not really in disagreement...i.e., as long as he doesn't discriminate which it sounds like he doesn't.. That said, as a guy w/ a sales and leadership background, it still strikes me as odd to take the risk of offending part of your target audience..Where it's coming from. Everyone should get their say. However as long as non religious players are being treated the same then why push it.
Because.
Religion entrenched in Clemson football - Freedom From Religion Foundation
The Freedom From Religion Foundation’s complaint to Clemson University over serious entanglements between its football program and religion created a...ffrf.org
The Freedom From Religion Foundation’
in general I am not really in disagreement...i.e., as long as he doesn't discriminate which it sounds like he doesn't.. That said, as a guy w/ a sales and leadership background, it still strikes me as odd to take the risk of offending part of your target audience..
you could be right.. perhaps i am jaded because our HR drills into us to be sensitive to religions around the world, various religious holidays, etc, etc, etc...Maybe people aren't as offended to have a conversation as some special interest groups would have you to believe.
you could be right.. perhaps i am jaded because our HR drills into us to be sensitive to religions around the world, various religious holidays, etc, etc, etc...
Where it's coming from. Everyone should get their say. However as long as non religious players are being treated the same then why push it.
Because.
Religion entrenched in Clemson football - Freedom From Religion Foundation
The Freedom From Religion Foundation’s complaint to Clemson University over serious entanglements between its football program and religion created a...ffrf.org
The Freedom From Religion Foundation’
This would truly be God's image. God is love.
Dabo Swinney: 'Players of any faith or no faith at all are welcome'
I care if my beliefs are based on truth and demonstrable evidence.i may regret my first ever post on the OT board, but here goes..
To me the basic issue here is epistemology. What you believe and exactly why do you believe.
Do you care if your beliefs are true, supported by demonstrative facts?
If you were born in India would you have the same deep belief in Vishnu?
Im saying that there are deep cultural biases due to(I can’t think of a less offensive term, sorry) indoctrination
The scary part to me is if people can be convinced of some supreme entity without real evidence and then submit to that entity’s rules, people suffer
Hence the multiple atrocities committed in the name of religion
okey, ready for incoming. LGM
my answer to each of your questions is:I care if my beliefs are based on truth and demonstrable evidence.
India is a multi-religious culture. I’ve taught seminary course in Bible in India to hundreds of pastors.
Indoctrination: I think you underestimate the ability of others to think freely and form their own worldviews. Which is growing faster, Islam in the West or Christianity in the East? It’s the latter. In the most closed countries on earth, where conversion is a capital offense, Christian is rapidly growing.
As I stated on the other the most murderous regimes in the history of humanity were atheistic. Further, religion if rarely in history the prime reason for conflict and resulting atrocities. Expansion is the motive. I have a degree in archaeology and I’m glad to discuss this further is you like.
Let me ask you some questions:
Why is there something rather than nothing?
What explanation do you have for the existence of time, space, and matter?
Why is the universe governed by immutable laws of physics?
How did the universe become fine tuned?
What caused the existence of human conscience?
What is the origin of objective morals and values?
How do you explain the experience of billions throughout the centuries who claim to have had a personal relationship with God?
Yes, I can.my answer to each of your questions is:
I can’t say I definitively know the answer, can you?
You’ve coke to the wrong place for open and honest debate. You’ve unwittingly stumbled on right wing Twitter/QAnon. Good luck.@CAJUNEER re: Dabo thread.. not sure i'm following "No. I think you are coming from a place of misconception." What do you feel i am misconceiving?
That’s the response I expected. The LOL response—the universal sign of defeat.LOL.
I would be interested in hearing your answers to each question then, and to understand the proof (scientific and/or even empirical). I respect your personal faith and belief, and your right to have it... but to say you know the answers when humanity has struggled to answer these questions forever speaks to a mighty high belief you have in your own brain.Yes, I can.
If you noticed both gentlemen are have a civil discussion on this topic which shows their intelligence. Please let them continueYou’ve coke to the wrong place for open and honest debate. You’ve unwittingly stumbled on right wing Twitter/QAnon. Good luck.
you obviously don't recognize an honest difference of opinion between 2 intelligent adults......first off you don't act like an adult and you certainly arent intelligent.......so just sit down , shut up and try to learn something instead of being a dumbass child molesting sheepleYou’ve coke to the wrong place for open and honest debate. You’ve unwittingly stumbled on right wing Twitter/QAnon. Good luck.
I guess my answer is simple and I am not gonna bash at you. The evidence of a supreme being is all over nature. Who anyone calls that being is going to be based on their culture. I have a lot less respect for people who don't believe in a God than people who believe in a different name than I do because I cannot fathom how someone cannot look at nature where scientific law tells us that nature trends toward chaos but somehow there is order and where did that order come from if moving toward chaos is natural.i may regret my first ever post on the OT board, but here goes..
To me the basic issue here is epistemology. What you believe and exactly why do you believe.
Do you care if your beliefs are true, supported by demonstrative facts?
If you were born in India would you have the same deep belief in Vishnu?
Im saying that there are deep cultural biases due to(I can’t think of a less offensive term, sorry) indoctrination
The scary part to me is if people can be convinced of some supreme entity without real evidence and then submit to that entity’s rules, people suffer
Hence the multiple atrocities committed in the name of religion
okey, ready for incoming. LGM
I don't think I have ever seen a person who brings less to a forum complain more about what others bring.You’ve coke to the wrong place for open and honest debate. You’ve unwittingly stumbled on right wing Twitter/QAnon. Good luck.
is the Creator called Brahma, Allah, Jehovah, Yahweh, God or something else? same Creator or different ones? does it even matter as long as you believe?There is a Creator. Everybody will eventually acknowledge (and bow) to him whether it is out of reverence and relationship or submission and defeat.
Philippians 2:10-11
That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth; And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.
@dave i agree with the wonderment of looking around at nature and the universe and can understand humans coming to the conclusion in their own minds that there must be some type of all-powerful creative and/or evolutionary force at play..I guess my answer is simple and I am not gonna bash at you. The evidence of a supreme being is all over nature. Who anyone calls that being is going to be based on their culture. I have a lot less respect for people who don't believe in a God than people who believe in a different name than I do because I cannot fathom how someone cannot look at nature where scientific law tells us that nature trends toward chaos but somehow there is order and where did that order come from if moving toward chaos is natural.
Men are naturally evil. It shouldn't surprise anyone that evil people will take advantage of any angle they can find to gain power. Religion, money, confidence.
I guess I don't understand why everything has to be proven. I think cynicism and questioning things is good but I also realize I am limited by my experiences and we are all limited to some degree by the extent of our intellect. The human brain is probably working at 15% its capacity unless you live in NYC and then it is half that. There could be significantly more intelligent life forms in our universe than us so what we know and what we believe is always going to be limited.@dave i agree with the wonderment of looking around at nature and the universe and can understand humans coming to the conclusion in their own minds that there must be some type of all-powerful creative and/or evolutionary force at play..
IMO human instinct is to try to make sense of that by assigning that to a 'god' type of force.. but to say you definitively know that and there is one true God at the source? I struggle to intellectually get there in my own mind, but i appreciate that others have and it gives them comfort and strength... but to me that is faith and belief and not factual proof (which may be unobtainable, i get that)
Why is there something rather than nothing?I would be interested in hearing your answers to each question then, and to understand the proof (scientific and/or even empirical). I respect your personal faith and belief, and your right to have it... but to say you know the answers when humanity has struggled to answer these questions forever speaks to a mighty high belief you have in your own brain.
thanks for the considered, thoughtful and even insightful answer. A few questions or comments:Why is there something rather than nothing?
What explanation do you have for the existence of time, space, and matter (the time-space continuum we call the universe)?
- Every contingent thing has an explanation of its existence.
- If the universe has an explanation of its existence, that explanation is a transcendent, personal being.
- The universe is a contingent thing.
- Therefore, the universe has an explanation of its existence.
- Therefore, the explanation of the universe is a transcendent, personal being – which is what everybody means by ‘God’.
Why is the universe governed by immutable laws of physics?
- The universe began to exist.
- If the universe began to exist, then the universe has a transcendent cause.
- Therefore, the universe has a transcendent cause.
- If God did not exist, the applicability of the immutable universal laws of physics would be just a happy coincidence.
- The applicability of the immutable universal laws of physics is not just a happy coincidence.
- Therefore, God exists.
How did the universe become fine tuned?
What caused the existence of human conscience?
- The fine-tuning of the universe is due to either physical necessity, chance, or design.
- The fine-tuning of the universe is not due to physical necessity or chance.
- Therefore, the fine-tuning of the universe is due to design.
What is the origin of objective morals and values?
- If God did not exist, intentional states of consciousness would not exist.
- But intentional states of consciousness do exist.
- Therefore, God exists.
How do you explain the experience of billions throughout the centuries who claim to have had a personal relationship with God?
- Objective moral values and duties exist.
- But if God did not exist, objective moral values and duties would not exist.
- Therefore, God exists.
I am happy to discuss further any of these arguments. Discussing all of them fully would be quite the treatise. But before we discuss any of these further, watch the video below. Tell me what you see at the 1:10 mark. I wonder what any engineers on the board see.
- I have a personal relationship with God.
- Therefore, I know God exists.
I'm not sure this is what "everybody" means, or perhaps i am not fully understanding what you mean by transcendent (divine?), personal being.thanks for the considered, thoughtful and even insightful answer. A few questions or comments:
I'm not sure this is what "everybody" means, or perhaps i am not fully understanding what you mean by transcendent (divine?), personal being..
- Therefore, the explanation of the universe is a transcendent, personal being – which is what everybody means by ‘God’.
what is the basis for ruling out physical necessity or chance? Isn't it at least remotely possible they could play a role?
- The fine-tuning of the universe is not due to physical necessity or chance.
On the next to last two bullets you make this conclusion, but it feels like a bit of a logic leap to me, colored by your personal belief system (nothing wrong with that).
- Therefore, God exists.
In your last bullet, it's the use of the word 'know' that gets to our fundamental difference of opinion in this discussion, i think. Although frankly, I do not think you would consider it a difference of 'opinion' as I think you are certain you are right, and I am wrong. Whereas, I am open to the possibility that you are right, but also open to the possibility you could be wrong.. Ultimately there is no way to know for sure (until perhaps the afterlife if it exists?) and to me that brings us back to the difference in personal faith/belief vs. an openness to "i just don't really know"..
- Therefore, I know God exists.
Appreciate the discussion. You have obviously given this considerable thought and I respect your depth of conviction.
Did you watch the video?thanks for the considered, thoughtful and even insightful answer. A few questions or comments:
I'm not sure this is what "everybody" means, or perhaps i am not fully understanding what you mean by transcendent (divine?), personal being..
- Therefore, the explanation of the universe is a transcendent, personal being – which is what everybody means by ‘God’.
what is the basis for ruling out physical necessity or chance? Isn't it at least remotely possible they could play a role?
- The fine-tuning of the universe is not due to physical necessity or chance.
On the next to last two bullets you make this conclusion, but it feels like a bit of a logic leap to me, colored by your personal belief system (nothing wrong with that).
- Therefore, God exists.
In your last bullet, it's the use of the word 'know' that gets to our fundamental difference of opinion in this discussion, i think. Although frankly, I do not think you would consider it a difference of 'opinion' as I think you are certain you are right, and I am wrong. Whereas, I am open to the possibility that you are right, but also open to the possibility you could be wrong.. Ultimately there is no way to know for sure (until perhaps the afterlife if it exists?) and to me that brings us back to the difference in personal faith/belief vs. an openness to "i just don't really know"..
- Therefore, I know God exists.
Appreciate the discussion. You have obviously given this considerable thought and I respect your depth of conviction.
I did.. at the 1:10 mark i observed what appeared to be a finely tuned system operating in a specific and recurring sequence (almost gear like in appearance).. but hey, it's all a bit over my head. You have obviously studied and researched this to a depth beyond mine.. which i commend.Did you watch the video?
You’ll find that Cajun, while he does like to mix it up, is in fact one of the most intelligent people you’ll come across on these topics. He’s studied, in depth, the world over. He’s a bit like Indiana Jones, but without the bull whip and hat.I did.. at the 1:10 mark i observed what appeared to be a finely tuned system operating in a specific and recurring sequence (almost gear like in appearance).. but hey, it's all a bit over my head. You have obviously studied and researched this to a depth beyond mine.. which i commend.
Also upon reading your clarifications and answers to my other questions (thank you for taking the time btw) it led me to another question..
You make a compelling case for the existence of some divine-like creative force involved in the creation and evolution of the universe and all life within it.... unless it's all just a video game or SIM we are living in which i haven't completely ruled out ... but that case to me is for the generic 'god' and is different than making the case that the Christian faith, vs. all others, is the 'correct' view or belief system.. Couldn't the divine creator be more aligned with other religions or belief systems and not that of Christianity?
Help me reconcile to this?
Go on.You’ll find that Cajun, while he does like to mix it up, is in fact one of the most intelligent people you’ll come across on these topics. He’s studied, in depth, the world over. He’s a bit like Indiana Jones, but without the bull whip and hat.
I think he might have a mancush on you. I had you pegged as an older straighter version of kid macgyver.Go on.
Well, I did change the broken spring on my garage door yesterday.I think he might have a mancush on you. I had you pegged as an older straighter version of kid macgyver.