Don't ask me how I know that is a dangerous job.Well, I did change the broken spring on my garage door yesterday.
@Cajuneer
- Thread starter BUDmountain
- Start date
Re: all just a video game...I did.. at the 1:10 mark i observed what appeared to be a finely tuned system operating in a specific and recurring sequence (almost gear like in appearance).. but hey, it's all a bit over my head. You have obviously studied and researched this to a depth beyond mine.. which i commend.
Also upon reading your clarifications and answers to my other questions (thank you for taking the time btw) it led me to another question..
You make a compelling case for the existence of some divine-like creative force involved in the creation and evolution of the universe and all life within it.... unless it's all just a video game or SIM we are living in which i haven't completely ruled out... but that case to me is for the generic 'god' and is different than making the case that the Christian faith, vs. all others, is the 'correct' view or belief system.. Couldn't the divine creator be more aligned with other religions or belief systems and not that of Christianity?
Help me reconcile to this?
Actually, 17th century philosopher Rene Descartes provide us an answer for that. Cogito ergo sum "I think; therefore, I am." Here's a good explanation of the postulation...
If you concede all my previous arguments and conclude this is evidence for a "generic god," then I agree. But this is not to say nothing can be known about this God. My first argument concludes that God must be a transcendent and personal (imminent and relational). This would eliminate all eastern mystical belief systems such as Buddhism and Hinduism because in every mystical belief system, God is either not transcendent or not personal or neither transcendent nor personal.
We could exhaustively go through every belief system centered on a transcendent, personal God. But to establish a pattern for examine all such faiths, let's just focus on the three major belief systems of this type: Islam, Judaism, and Christianity. (I don't think it's a coincidence that all three great monotheistic faiths claim the God of Abraham as their God.) With Islam, Allah (which is the Arabic form of the Hebrew word Elohim which is the word translated "God" in the Old Testament/Hebrew Bible) is indeed a transcendent, omnipotent, omnipresent, omniscient God. Allah is in control of every detail of the universe. Nothing happens outside the will of Allah. Allah has no love for those who are not his adherents--his children. All Allah's children are chosen by Him. Therefore, to be born as not one of Allah's children--the unfaithful or infidels--means a person has no freewill to choose obedience to Allah. If one does choose obedience to Allah, it is only by divine ordination. Allah has no love for the unfaithful.
Further, Allah does not have a personal, intimate relationship with even those who are his children. He cannot be known on a personal level, and there is no certainty you are one of Allah's children before death. The best one can do is be obedient in every thought, word, and deed. Yet, since no one can perfectly obey, there is no certainty that one has obeyed enough to enter paradise after death. Because Allah of the Muslim faith is not personal, this God cannot be the God of creation.
Judaism and Christian both accept the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob as the one true and living God. Both faiths in their orthodox forms accept the Hebrew Bible (the Tanakh)/Old Testament as sacred texts faithfully revealing this God. However, Christians also believe the New Testament is sacred text. Judaism rejects the New Testament. The question of accepting or reject the NT rests on the identity of Jesus. Beginning with Genesis 3:15, the Tanakh claims again and again that a Deliverer is coming to set the word free of sin, pain, disease, suffering, and death. This Deliverer comes to be called the Messiah (meaning "the Anointed One"). The NT claims that Jesus is this Messiah. Jesus fulfilled the prophecies concerning the Messiah down to the smallest detail. The 8th BC century (700 years before Jesus' birth) prophet Isaiah prophesied concerning the Messiah. One of the Dead Sea Scrolls is a copy of the book of Isaiah called "The Great Isaiah Scroll." You can see this scroll wrapped around the wall near the ceiling of the Shrine of the Book in the Israel Museum in Jerusalem. This scroll is from 100 B.C. (100 years before the birth of Christ).
Isaiah 53:7-12
7 He was oppressed and afflicted,
yet he did not open his mouth;
he was led like a lamb to the slaughter,
and as a sheep before its shearers is silent,
so he did not open his mouth.
8 By oppression and judgment he was taken away.
Yet who of his generation protested?
For he was cut off from the land of the living;
for the transgression of my people he was punished.
9 He was assigned a grave with the wicked,
and with the rich in his death,
though he had done no violence,
nor was any deceit in his mouth.
10 Yet it was the Lord’s will to crush him and cause him to suffer,
and though the Lord makes his life an offering for sin,
he will see his offspring and prolong his days,
and the will of the Lord will prosper in his hand.
11 After he has suffered,
he will see the light of life and be satisfied;
by his knowledge my righteous servant will justify many,
and he will bear their iniquities.
12 Therefore I will give him a portion among the great,
and he will divide the spoils with the strong,
because he poured out his life unto death,
and was numbered with the transgressors.
For he bore the sin of many,
and made intercession for the transgressors.
The NT claims that the proof Jesus is the Messiah is He raised from the dead as Isaiah 53:11 suggests. The question then is this: did Jesus raise from the dead?
thank you @CAJUNEER. this whole discussion has been enlightening for me and I admire and appreciate the depth of your study and knowledge on this topic. I can't say that it's changed my fundamental position or beliefs, but I am at least open to the fact that that could be because of my own lack of depth of research and knowledge on the topic, at least compared to yours!. Well done sir...very enlightening and appreciate the discussion.
My pleasure! If you would like to read more, one-time atheist, Lee Strobel, wrote an enlightening book...
Amazon product ASIN 0310350034
Psalm 19
For the director of music. A psalm of David.
1 The heavens declare the glory of God;the skies proclaim the work of his hands.
2 Day after day they pour forth speech;
night after night they reveal knowledge.
3 They have no speech, they use no words;
no sound is heard from them.
4 Yet their voice goes out into all the earth,
their words to the ends of the world.
In the heavens God has pitched a tentfor the sun.
5 It is like a bridegroom coming out of his chamber,
like a champion rejoicing to run his course.
6 It rises at one end of the heavens
and makes its circuit to the other;
nothing is deprived of its warmth.
7 The law of the Lord is perfect,
refreshing the soul.
The statutes of the Lord are trustworthy,
making wise the simple.
8 The precepts of the Lord are right,
giving joy to the heart.
The commands of the Lord are radiant,
giving light to the eyes.
9 The fear of the Lord is pure,
enduring forever.
The decrees of the Lord are firm,
and all of them are righteous.
10 They are more precious than gold,
than much pure gold;
they are sweeter than honey,
than honey from the honeycomb.
11 By them your servant is warned;
in keeping them there is great reward.
12 But who can discern their own errors?
Forgive my hidden faults.
13 Keep your servant also from willful sins;
may they not rule over me.
Then I will be blameless,
innocent of great transgression.
14 May these words of my mouth and this meditation of my heart
be pleasing in your sight,
Lord, my Rock and my Redeemer.
I enjoy when you post .
I have several friends who are atheists and I couldn't explain the presence of God like you in a million years. I simply look up and all around and say nothing but our God could create this . Then I ask them where does empathy come from ?
That's a great question. It runs counter to everything we are told by evolutionary biologists. Yet, it is usually not the clever arguments that win people, but the love of God in us seen by others and our testimony of a changed life. It's the testimony of the man born blind in John 9: "One thing I do know. I was blind but now I see!"
Empathy could only come from a creator that is based in love .
I could be wrong but it's easy to love ourselves and feel our own pain , but without the holy ghost it would be impossible to feel love for others. I think besides grace empathy is one of the greatest things we get from God
@dave i agree with your sentiment about why does everything have to be proven. I certainly believe in a lot of things I cannot prove. But again, aren't we now talking about one's own personal faith and beliefs vs. something that is scientifically or demonstratively proven?
And to me, your comments about the limits of the human brain support my position, it would seem to me at least, that we are talking about people's personal beliefs and faith here... which there's absolutely nothing wrong people having of course. To me, the truth is none of us really know, which is just fine by me.
yeah but you've got to give ol' Allah some credit as a master salesman.. that carrot of 72 virgins .. that's next level incentive dangling right there
admittedly, i am bringing marbles to a gunfight in any debate with you on this topic, and I am really not engaging in debate as much as I am open to learning and appreciate picking your brain given your obvious depth of study... given that, I am interested in your perspective on your last question there..
Is there evidence beyond man's testimony that Jesus did raise from the dead? Because we all know man is capable of distorting the facts in order to push a narrative
(btw, i ordered the book...appreciate the recommendation)
72 virgins is all well and good for the first 72 seconds but after that you have 72 women running off at the mouth who can't even fix a pot of beans .... no thanks. I'll take 71 well seasoned women who can take care of everything and 1 virgin lmaoyeah but you've got to give ol' Allah some credit as a master salesman.. that carrot of 72 virgins .. that's next level incentive dangling right there
You should read the Koran. It’s interesting. A couple of notes:yeah but you've got to give ol' Allah some credit as a master salesman.. that carrot of 72 virgins .. that's next level incentive dangling right there
1) It mentions Muhammad four times.
2) It mentions Jesus 25 times.
3) It says the universe was created by the Word of God.
4) It says Jesus is the Word of God.
5) It says Jesus is coming back to judge the world.
If a person believes the Koran, the person shouldn’t become a Muslim but a Christian.
RE: Evidence beyond human testimony
The empty tomb. Of course it always comes back to human testimony. Nearly all evidence, even in a courtroom, comes back to human testimony. How do you know George Washington was the first US President? Testimony as found in history books. Even DNA evidence in a courtroom relies on the testimony of the geneticist who performed the test. The jury is not made of 12 geneticists who administered the test themselves. The question comes down to the reliability of the testimony.
Scores of people claimed to have seen the resurrected Jesus within 40 days of his purported resurrection—500 at a single appearing. Several women and Jesus’ closest disciples claimed the tomb was empty. Why should we believe any of them?
1) Jesus was buried in a tomb which was sealed with a Roman commander’s seal. Roman guards were placed on the tomb. For someone to break the seal without proper authority was a death sentence, not only for the one who broke the seal, but for the guards. In fact, the guards who were assigned to keep watch on the tomb were in fact put to death.
2) The Jews leaders whose position and place were threatened by Jesus started a rumor that the disciples stole the body. Besides the obvious problem with getting into the tomb without the notice of the guards, there is another enormous problem with this theory. Because the Christians were preaching Jesus raised from the dead, they came under heavy persecution. Stephen was stoned to death. The apostle James, the brother of the apostle John and first pastor of the Christian church, was beheaded. The Christians ran for their lives out of Jerusalem. Later, brothers Andrew and Peter were crucified for their faith—Andrew in the Roman province of Asia and Peter upside down in Rome. On the same day Peter was crucified, Paul was beheaded also in Roman. Thomas preached the Gospel in India. He was speared to death for his preaching and his tomb is there to this day. After preaching the Gospel in North Africa and Asia Minor, Philip was tortured to death as punishment for leading the wife of the Roman proconsul to faith in Christ. Matthew preached the Gospel first in Persia then in Ethiopia where he was martyred by stabbing. Bartholomew was martyred in southern Arabia, James bar Alpheus in Syria, Simon the Zealot in Persia, and Matthias in Syria. Of the original Twelve apostles, only John died of old age.
So what’s the enormous problem with the stolen body theory? In order to believe this one would have to believe these apostles were crucified, beheaded, stabbed, speared, stoned, clubbed, or burned to death for what they knew was a lie. Not only this, they lived lives of suffering in order to preach the Gospel as far east as India, as far north as Russia, as far south as Ethiopia, and as far west as North Africa and Spain. And they did this all for a lie?
3) We have the testimony of those who were not Christians. Josephus, born in Jerusalem four years after Jesus’ crucifixion there, was a Jewish general in the A.D. 66 rebellion against Roman. He was capture and led off to Roman. There he wrote a comprehensive history of the Jews for the Rome leadership. He mentions Jesus multiple times, including in this passage:
“At this time there was a wise man called Jesus, and his conduct was good, and he was known to be virtuous. Many people among the Jews and the other nations became his disciples. Pilate condemned him to be crucified and to die. But those who had become his disciples did not abandon his discipleship. They reported that he had appeared to them three days after his crucifixion and that he was alive. Accordingly, he was perhaps the Messiah, concerning whom the prophets have reported wonders. And the tribe of the Christians, so named after him, has not disappeared to this day.”
You can also look into Tacitus, Seutonius, and Pliny the Younger.
So while all evidence of the resurrection is bound in testimony, it’s reliable testimony because it’s against self interest.
this Blue Lot masters class i’ve gotten myself into here is really good.
I certainly believe in the historical Jesus... seemingly too much evidence exists that he indeed existed as a human at the time, and as a charismatic figure who inspired his followers.. that said, the natural skeptic in me has always struggled with the supernatural resurrection story... I always wondered what happened to him after he was risen…was he only around for a few days, where did he go, how did his story on earth end? Also, the 500 witness claim was made by Paul many years later, correct…like 20 years later? And has many scholars who have questioned its legitimacy to my understanding. If only there had been internet or TV back then, would have been wild to see interviews with the witnesses. I guess, for me, there’s no way to know for sure short of experiencing the afterlife or the rapture (and I get that it will be too late then!). Which brings us back to personal faith and belief IMO.
i really do appreciate all the info you have shared, and how you’ve shared it.. my maternal grandfather was a Church of God preacher in southern WV (Logan County) and the discussion with you has made me want to dig deeper in search of knowledge. I much prefer this type of discussion based on history, logic, research, etc than the surface level discussion with many who claim to be religious but in reality are just hypocrites, or worse.
Merry Christmas
P
It seems clear in 1 Corinthians 15 Paul is reciting a formula already known to his audience. It is a precursor to later creeds. It would be a very long conversation for me to explain patterned and typological interpretations of Scriptures by the apostles and the early church as well as textual criticism to demonstrate why this is a preexisting formula. It seems most likely, the formula was one taught at the earliest stages of Christianity and passed on to Paul.
Scholars questioning. Again, a very long conversation, but one I'd love to have sometime. My own search was a genuine search for truth, but not really a search for God. It began while living abroad and I was wide open. What I found at the conclusion of this search was that while I wasn't necessarily seeking God, He was pursuing me. Now my search is focused on God. I want to know everything about Him.
After Jesus' resurrection, Jesus appeared on earth for 40 days before ascending into Heaven.
I appreciate your sincere interest. Merry Christmas!
RE: 500 at one time
It seems clear in 1 Corinthians 15 Paul is reciting a formula already known to his audience. It is a precursor to later creeds. It would be a very long conversation for me to explain patterned and typological interpretations of Scriptures by the apostles and the early church as well as textual criticism to demonstrate why this is a preexisting formula. It seems most likely, the formula was one taught at the earliest stages of Christianity and passed on to Paul.
Scholars questioning. Again, a very long conversation, but one I'd love to have sometime. My own search was a genuine search for truth, but not really a search for God. It began while living abroad and I was wide open. What I found at the conclusion of this search was that while I wasn't necessarily seeking God, He was pursuing me. Now my search is focused on God. I want to know everything about Him.
After Jesus' resurrection, Jesus appeared on earth for 40 days before ascending into Heaven.
I appreciate your sincere interest. Merry Christmas!
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