Big 12 prefers wantss to expand before start season Dennis Dodd

[topdecktiger]

So Tiger you stated

"It's because the other conferences got new contracts, which paid extra money. As it stands right now, the Big 12 is just talking about splitting the pro rata shares. That's not really extra money."

I asked

So are you saying the B1G10 signed a new contract when the added RU and Maryland 2 years ago?

You followed up with
No, that's not what I'm saying.

Well, you can't have it both ways. Either the BIG 12 is the only conference not getting a new TV deal as it adds programs (which by the way we don't know yet), or your just flat out wrong, since the B1G10 did not sign a new TV deal when they added RU and Maryland two years ago.

I'm not having it both ways. The Big Ten got extra money for adding Rutgers and Maryland. Even if Rutgers and Maryland had gotten full shares from day 1, the payouts for the Big Ten schools would still have been larger than they were with just 12 schools. The old Big Ten contract paid out an average of $20.7 million per school. The new contract pays out an average of $31 million per school. That's without anyone getting partial shares.

Same thing happened with the ACC. Originally, the average payout was $13 million per school. When Pitt and Syracuse were added, the average payout increased to $17 million per school. Again, even if Pitt and Syracuse got full shares from day 1, that's extra money for each school.

The Big 12 is not in the same situation. The pro rata increase only calls for the payouts to stay the same. It only covers the expense of adding new schools. The average payout in the Big 12 now is around $23 million per school. If new members are added, the pro rata clause pays......$23 million per school. There is no extra money in the payouts. It just stays the same. The only way for the schools to get extra money, under the pro rata clause, is to pay the new schools partial shares, and the other schools split that money. Once the new schools get full shares, then there isn't any extra money.

Ahh the king of the TWIST.

There's no indication that FOX and ESPN are NOT interested in renegotiation of the contract either. That's because talks between the BIG 12 and their media partners are PRIVATE. We won't know anymore details about any of it until they tell us.

You however said:

Topdecktiger--As it stands now, the Big 12 isn't renegotiating their contract. They are planning on redistributing the pro rata money. Well, that's not what the other conferences did. The other conferences got extra money, not just pro rata (i.e. break even) money.

ALL of that statement is BASED ON NOTHING just like 99.9% of what you claim.

As to your other bunk--its not clear AT ALL that from discussions that----
"It's clear from the discussions the Big 12 had with Fox and ESPN back in June that neither network is thrilled about giving the Big 12 more money."

You completely fabricated that out of thin air.

No, it's based on what's being reported. You are basing your opinion on NOTHING but speculation. You just say it's being negotiated "behind closed doors." Well, that's the problem. You don't know what's being said "behind closed doors," so what's being negotiated may look nothing like what you are claiming. You can't say we don't know what's being said behind closed doors.......and the claim you know what's going on behind closed doors.

"You completely fabricated that out of thin air."

Yeah, thin air alright. You have an extraordinary talent for putting your foot in your mouth.

 

[Mountaineer Steve]

I'm not having it both ways. The Big Ten got extra money for adding Rutgers and Maryland. Even if Rutgers and Maryland had gotten full shares from day 1, the payouts for the Big Ten schools would still have been larger than they were with just 12 schools. The old Big Ten contract paid out an average of $20.7 million per school. The new contract pays out an average of $31 million per school. That's without anyone getting partial shares.

Same thing happened with the ACC. Originally, the average payout was $13 million per school. When Pitt and Syracuse were added, the average payout increased to $17 million per school. Again, even if Pitt and Syracuse got full shares from day 1, that's extra money for each school.

The Big 12 is not in the same situation. The pro rata increase only calls for the payouts to stay the same. It only covers the expense of adding new schools. The average payout in the Big 12 now is around $23 million per school. If new members are added, the pro rata clause pays......$23 million per school. There is no extra money in the payouts. It just stays the same. The only way for the schools to get extra money, under the pro rata clause, is to pay the new schools partial shares, and the other schools split that money. Once the new schools get full shares, then there isn't any extra money.

.

No program has been added and changes to TV contract have not been announced yet, so everything you are saying is pure speculation that the BIG12 won't get a bump beyond pro rata share, and extension of TV contract. However, if the contracts are redone, the networks will surely demand the removal of pro rata share clause moving forward and an extension of GOR.

Oh can you please show me where TV networks redid payout to B1G when they added these two programs? And I am not talking about the 2016 contract

 

[Buckaineer]

I'm not having it both ways. The Big Ten got extra money for adding Rutgers and Maryland. Even if Rutgers and Maryland had gotten full shares from day 1, the payouts for the Big Ten schools would still have been larger than they were with just 12 schools. The old Big Ten contract paid out an average of $20.7 million per school. The new contract pays out an average of $31 million per school. That's without anyone getting partial shares.

Same thing happened with the ACC. Originally, the average payout was $13 million per school. When Pitt and Syracuse were added, the average payout increased to $17 million per school. Again, even if Pitt and Syracuse got full shares from day 1, that's extra money for each school.

The Big 12 is not in the same situation. The pro rata increase only calls for the payouts to stay the same. It only covers the expense of adding new schools. The average payout in the Big 12 now is around $23 million per school. If new members are added, the pro rata clause pays......$23 million per school. There is no extra money in the payouts. It just stays the same. The only way for the schools to get extra money, under the pro rata clause, is to pay the new schools partial shares, and the other schools split that money. Once the new schools get full shares, then there isn't any extra money.



No, it's based on what's being reported. You are basing your opinion on NOTHING but speculation. You just say it's being negotiated "behind closed doors." Well, that's the problem. You don't know what's being said "behind closed doors," so what's being negotiated may look nothing like what you are claiming. You can't say we don't know what's being said behind closed doors.......and the claim you know what's going on behind closed doors.

"You completely fabricated that out of thin air."

Yeah, thin air alright. You have an extraordinary talent for putting your foot in your mouth.

The tv contracts for the Big Ten were adjusted a month or so ago.

Rutgers and Maryland joined the Big Ten in 2012 and began play in 2014-2015. The conference did not renegotiate with its tv partners at the time--the schools were paid with revenues from the BTN and other Big Ten sources and receive partial shares still.

As to the BIG 12? Straight from tv partner ESPN yesterday:

excerpt:
one industry insider, who worked directly with programming before recently leaving for another job in the industry, indicated getting the Big 12 schools to sign a grant of rights without offering anything in return will be a tough sell for the networks, even as they have to shell out up to $800 million to the league. More likely, to get a grant of rights extension, ESPN and Fox would have to put forward an immediate renegotiation of the Big 12's tier 1 and 2 deals, and pay the Big 12 up to the levels of the SEC and Big Ten. The Big Ten is now getting an estimated $250 million per year from Fox for only half of its rights.
http://espn.go.com/college-football...-oklahoma-sooners-leverage-motivation-unclear
http://espn.go.com/college-football...-oklahoma-sooners-leverage-motivation-unclear

so once again while you lie and speculate in your desperate attempts to disparage the BIG 12, the conference as I said continues to negotiate behind closed doors with its media partners and renegotiation of the contracts ABOVE just pro rata IS under consideration.

run along and play now--away from BIG 12 boards.

 

[Buckaineer]

No program has been added and changes to TV contract have not been announced yet, so everything you are saying is pure speculation that the BIG12 won't get a bump beyond pro rata share, and extension of TV contract. However, if the contracts are redone, the networks will surely demand the removal of pro rata share clause moving forward and an extension of GOR.

Oh can you please show me where TV networks redid payout to B1G when they added these two programs? And I am not talking about the 2016 contract

Tiger seems to have some mental issues. Seriously don't think he is all there--he argues every fact and just makes 99% of what he claims up-then trumpets like he's proved something.

 

[skygusty]

If the title of this thread is true there are 30 days left before the season starts and the speculation ends and everyone has to show their cards. I will welcome actual news and hope the BIG12 can get it together.

 

[Mountaineer Steve]

If the title of this thread is true there are 30 days left before the season starts and the speculation ends and everyone has to show their cards. I will welcome actual news and hope the BIG12 can get it together.

I am with you, but I don't hold out a great deal of hope the dysfunctional BIG12 will ever get there.

 

[Buckaineer]

I am with you, but I don't hold out a great deal of hope the dysfunctional BIG12 will ever get there.

Which is why WVUs leaders need to be doing everything they can as contingency.

 

[topdecktiger]

No program has been added and changes to TV contract have not been announced yet, so everything you are saying is pure speculation that the BIG12 won't get a bump beyond pro rata share, and extension of TV contract. However, if the contracts are redone, the networks will surely demand the removal of pro rata share clause moving forward and an extension of GOR.

Oh can you please show me where TV networks redid payout to B1G when they added these two programs? And I am not talking about the 2016 contract

It's also pure speculation that the Big 12 will get to renegotiate the TV contract. The only certainty we have now is that there is a pro rata clause in the current contract. Under that pro rata clause, there is not extra money, unless you lowball the new schools. For there to be any extra money, there has to be a new contract without a pro rata clause.

I don't know why you think the networks would want a removal of the pro rata clause, unless it's to pay less money. ESPN and Fox are clearly not happy with the addition of the teams in question. They don't feel that Cincinnati, Memphis, etc. are worth $20+ million a year. Well, if that's true, then it doesn't make sense that ESPN and Fox would get rid of the pro rata clause and pay more money for teams they don't want in the first place.

I am talking about the 2016 contract.

The tv contracts for the Big Ten were adjusted a month or so ago.

Rutgers and Maryland joined the Big Ten in 2012 and began play in 2014-2015. The conference did not renegotiate with its tv partners at the time--the schools were paid with revenues from the BTN and other Big Ten sources and receive partial shares still.

As to the BIG 12? Straight from tv partner ESPN yesterday:

excerpt:
one industry insider, who worked directly with programming before recently leaving for another job in the industry, indicated getting the Big 12 schools to sign a grant of rights without offering anything in return will be a tough sell for the networks, even as they have to shell out up to $800 million to the league. More likely, to get a grant of rights extension, ESPN and Fox would have to put forward an immediate renegotiation of the Big 12's tier 1 and 2 deals, and pay the Big 12 up to the levels of the SEC and Big Ten. The Big Ten is now getting an estimated $250 million per year from Fox for only half of its rights.
http://espn.go.com/college-football...-oklahoma-sooners-leverage-motivation-unclear

so once again while you lie and speculate in your desperate attempts to disparage the BIG 12, the conference as I said continues to negotiate behind closed doors with its media partners and renegotiation of the contracts ABOVE just pro rata IS under consideration.

run along and play now--away from BIG 12 boards.

Your article didn't say there is a renegotiation. It only said what would have to happen for there to be a renegotiation. Meanwhile, here are some actual reports, rather than just speculation.

The Big 12’s TV partners are pushing back on the conference’s plans to expand.

ESPN and Fox Sports believe that expansion with schools from outside the power five conferences will water down the Big 12 and make it less valuable, not more, sources said.

No lies or twisting there. That's straight from the Sports Business Journal, which you have quoted extensively.

 

[Buckaineer]

It's also pure speculation that the Big 12 will get to renegotiate the TV contract. The only certainty we have now is that there is a pro rata clause in the current contract. Under that pro rata clause, there is not extra money, unless you lowball the new schools. For there to be any extra money, there has to be a new contract without a pro rata clause.

I don't know why you think the networks would want a removal of the pro rata clause, unless it's to pay less money. ESPN and Fox are clearly not happy with the addition of the teams in question. They don't feel that Cincinnati, Memphis, etc. are worth $20+ million a year. Well, if that's true, then it doesn't make sense that ESPN and Fox would get rid of the pro rata clause and pay more money for teams they don't want in the first place.

I am talking about the 2016 contract.



Your article didn't say there is a renegotiation. It only said what would have to happen for there to be a renegotiation. Meanwhile, here are some actual reports, rather than just speculation.

The Big 12’s TV partners are pushing back on the conference’s plans to expand.

ESPN and Fox Sports believe that expansion with schools from outside the power five conferences will water down the Big 12 and make it less valuable, not more, sources said.

No lies or twisting there. That's straight from the Sports Business Journal, which you have quoted extensively.

and you are claiming that other conferences got renegotiation and the BIG 12 WILL NOT. The WILL NOT is based on NOTHING. The MIGHT is based on actual news reports from BIG 12 media partners. What part of that do you not understand?

As to your other bunk--WHO ARE THESE SOURCES?

Anonymous sources are about as reliable as your usual garbage.

 

[Rootmaster]

Topdecker...were Rutgers and Maryland worth the money to the B1G? Were Boston College, Syracuse, and Louisville worth the money to the ACC? The networks gave them the loot. Cincy, Houston and BYU for example bring as much to the table.

And, how much value does Wake Forest add to the ACC contract? Or, Vanderbilt to the SEC? Or, Purdue to the B1G?

This whole network push back is renegotiating crap with the networks trying to save some cash at the expense of the Big 12-2=10.

Bottom line is that the network cash cow is dying with shrinking subscriber rates and higher costs. They need to get their money act together and the Big 12-2=10 is a good target.

The long term future of athletic money will be in conference run individual streaming access through the conferences themselves. The better you are perceived, the more money you will make as an institution. It is either that model or a rash of law suits among colleges of all levels concerning collusion and anti trust issues at the least.

Arguing over the real meaning of words by any sports journalist is silly...and juvenile.

 

[skygusty]

ESPN and FOX could always pony up more for the conference as it stands with just 10 teams. Instead of paying out 100 million more a year and not gaining anything, they could pay out maybe 20 or 30 million more for the BIG12 and still be paying less per team than what the B1G and the SEC are getting. Throw in a requirement for an extended GOR and everybody is happy except for those who just want to expand for the hell of it.

 

[topdecktiger]

and you are claiming that other conferences got renegotiation and the BIG 12 WILL NOT. The WILL NOT is based on NOTHING. The MIGHT is based on actual news reports from BIG 12 media partners. What part of that do you not understand?

As to your other bunk--WHO ARE THESE SOURCES?

Anonymous sources are about as reliable as your usual garbage.

LOL. You have nothing but anonymous sources. The source to your article was, "one industry insider, who worked directly with programming before recently leaving for another job in the industry." But you're giving me grief about anonymous sources. It's laughable.

By the way, I'm not telling you it's impossible for the Big 12 to get a new TV deal. However, it's very unlikely. As I told another poster, the pro rata clause was not put in there for ***** and giggles. ESPN and Fox did that to cap the amount they would have to pay for expansion. It's very unlikely they will waive that clause, sign a new contract, and pay more money than they have to, especially given that they really don't like the teams being considered and don't even want to pay the pro rata money in the first place.

 

[topdecktiger]

ESPN and FOX could always pony up more for the conference as it stands with just 10 teams. Instead of paying out 100 million more a year and not gaining anything, they could pay out maybe 20 or 30 million more for the BIG12 and still be paying less per team than what the B1G and the SEC are getting. Throw in a requirement for an extended GOR and everybody is happy except for those who just want to expand for the hell of it.

Which is probably what the angle has been all along.