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Those of you against the Big XII and dreaming up conferences...

Shady TigEER

Shady TigEER

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May 29, 2001
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Please tell me where my logic is wrong (cause and effect like Directv)

We join a non P5 conference
We struggle to recruit even 3* recruits
We go 9-3 or even 10-2 in crap conference and rarely if ever get to a great bowl
Recruiting becomes harder...meanwhile we're not earning 50 million a year (more like 10)
We're only on television 3 or 4 times a year as opposed to every game
...so we can't land recruits because they want to be on TV
We're not able to upgrade our facilities because the money isn't there
...further hurting our chances to land recruits
We juggle coaches every 3-4 years
We can't get back into a power conference
We can't sell out our stadium because the best team on our schedule is Cincinnati
P5 schools laugh at us when we ask them to come to Mountaineer field


....you follow me now?

Is that what you want? The goof who was talking about Old Dominion, Army, Navy, Marshall, ECU....dude you need to realize the only teams that have a future in real college football are P5 schools. Now if you can get a conference that is regional that is traditional powers that looks something like Penn St., Maryland, Va. Tech, Pitt, UVA, Boston College, Syracuse, Tennessee, Kentucky, etc. then you have something....but that is a pipe dream because those schools' leaders are smarter than you - they realize what they have is special and keeps them relevant.
 
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Its refreshing to see a WVU Rivals poster who actually uses logic.

Great post Shady!
 
Shady TigEER said:
Please tell me where my logic is wrong (cause and effect like Directv)

We join a non P5 conference
We struggle to recruit even 3* recruits
We go 9-3 or even 10-2 in crap conference and rarely if ever get to a great bowl
Recruiting becomes harder...meanwhile we're not earning 50 million a year (more like 10)
We're only on television 3 or 4 times a year as opposed to every game
...so we can't land recruits because they want to be on TV
We're not able to upgrade our facilities because the money isn't there
...further hurting our chances to land recruits
We juggle coaches every 3-4 years
We can't get back into a power conference
We can't sell out our stadium because the best team on our schedule is Cincinnati
P5 schools laugh at us when we ask them to come to Mountaineer field


....you follow me now?

Is that what you want? The goof who was talking about Old Dominion, Army, Navy, Marshall, ECU....dude you need to realize the only teams that have a future in real college football are P5 schools. Now if you can get a conference that is regional that is traditional powers that looks something like Penn St., Maryland, Va. Tech, Pitt, UVA, Boston College, Syracuse, Tennessee, Kentucky, etc. then you have something....but that is a pipe dream because those schools' leaders are smarter than you - they realize what they have is special and keeps them relevant.
Click to expand...

I don't think we should leave the Big 12 or that we shouldn't have joined. HOWEVER....


.....being the "Vanderbilt" of the Big 12 isn't exactly a great experience either. Striving to go 7-5 and go to a crappy bowl game isn't exactly what I was hoping for. For me, to be honest, it's either "sh!t or get off the toilet". What do I mean? Well, we wanted "big boy" football and now it's time to act like a Big Boy. If the coach isn't getting it done, get him out and get someone else in. Stop the excuses and the financial reasons and get it done. That's what the "big boys" do, right? Make it happen or we should just shut up and like our mediocrity.
 
MountaineerWV said:
I don't think we should leave the Big 12 or that we shouldn't have joined. HOWEVER....


.....being the "Vanderbilt" of the Big 12 isn't exactly a great experience either. Striving to go 7-5 and go to a crappy bowl game isn't exactly what I was hoping for. For me, to be honest, it's either "sh!t or get off the toilet". What do I mean? Well, we wanted "big boy" football and now it's time to act like a Big Boy. If the coach isn't getting it done, get him out and get someone else in. Stop the excuses and the financial reasons and get it done. That's what the "big boys" do, right? Make it happen or we should just shut up and like our mediocrity.
Click to expand...


I can't say I disagree with what you are saying. Dana has nearly played out his contract and his results are mediocre. Look for a new coach if he doesn't get it done...that's fine with me. However, jumping ship on the conference we are in is incredibly short-sighted for sustaining the program...sure you might get a few more wins in a crap conference but don't you agree playing Oklahoma, Texas, etc. is much more palatable than playing UConn, ECU, Cinci? It is for me and I dare say 95% of the rest of our fan base. I think we are in agreement right?
 
Shady TigEER said:
I can't say I disagree with what you are saying. Dana has nearly played out his contract and his results are mediocre. Look for a new coach if he doesn't get it done...that's fine with me. However, jumping ship on the conference we are in is incredibly short-sighted for sustaining the program...sure you might get a few more wins in a crap conference but don't you agree playing Oklahoma, Texas, etc. is much more palatable than playing UConn, ECU, Cinci? It is for me and I dare say 95% of the rest of our fan base. I think we are in agreement right?
Click to expand...

Is all the money in the world worth the embarrassment and mediocrity that we have become? That's what I've begun to ask myself. Don't get me wrong, there is no doubt that the Big 12 move was great financially. But when our AD gets rid of one coach for "his guy" and basically says that 9 wins shouldn't be good enough, well the new guy should have to live up to that standard in year #5 as well. I don't care if he is in a more difficult conference. He's had 5 years and has recruited how many good, quality QB's? Trickett transferred. Howard is mediocre. Geno wasn't his. I mean 5 years and nothing at that position....a position that you'd think he would have people lined up to play here since he's an "offensive genius".

I've also never been excited about the Big 12 for WVU, although again I know it was the right move. The ACC is what I was hoping for. It's a natural fit for us. And maybe when the next realignment situation occurs there may be a shot at us moving to it? I doubt it, but it would be nice.
 
MountaineerWV said:
Is all the money in the world worth the embarrassment and mediocrity that we have become? That's what I've begun to ask myself. Don't get me wrong, there is no doubt that the Big 12 move was great financially. But when our AD gets rid of one coach for "his guy" and basically says that 9 wins shouldn't be good enough, well the new guy should have to live up to that standard in year #5 as well. I don't care if he is in a more difficult conference. He's had 5 years and has recruited how many good, quality QB's? Trickett transferred. Howard is mediocre. Geno wasn't his. I mean 5 years and nothing at that position....a position that you'd think he would have people lined up to play here since he's an "offensive genius".

I've also never been excited about the Big 12 for WVU, although again I know it was the right move. The ACC is what I was hoping for. It's a natural fit for us. And maybe when the next realignment situation occurs there may be a shot at us moving to it? I doubt it, but it would be nice.
Click to expand...

It is always a little comical to see some low information posters work so hard to try and convince a handful (25 at most on this site) of actual fans that the end is near after every loss and the coach must be fired. It would be different if they were reaching the masses, but your likely to get more Marshall troll replies on this free anonymous board than anything else.

The ACC has not been kind to Pitt, and fan support is probably the lowest it has been in 50 years. There is very little interest in their ACC schedule which seldom includes the conference's better programs ( FSU and Clemson ). One of the many benefits about being in the Big 12 is that you get to play all of the ranked conference members every year which guarantees a lot of fan interest in your schedule, national exposure, and full stadiums.
 
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Yea Boise State is suffering, and like I posted in a previous post, playing some one who is a rival or who could be your rival every year has to be better than playing Kansas, Kansas State, Iowa State ect. Like I said where does WVU get most of it's players???? PA, VA, NJ, FL, DC, WV, OH. Where does the teams WVU play get their players TX, OK, KS. No rival, no connection lack of winning will equal worse bowls than if you were in a different conference which will hurt recruiting ect. Sorry guys this is deeper than Wings Ole
 
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We're not a bottom feeder in the Big 12. We are a historically good program going through a rough patch that happens to coincide with our joining the Big 12. Even during the rough patch we have gone 11-19. Bottom feeders going through rough patches might win 6 or fewer out of 30 and perform as we have when they are going through relatively good stretches.

I'm not suggesting we have the potential to dominate the Big 12 over the long-term. Only 2 schools (Texas and Oklahoma) even have the potential to do that and as you can see they aren't doing it right now. Sure, all the stars will need to align for us to win outright titles, but that's true for the vast majority of teams. When we have lineups dominated by solid (by our historical standards), experienced players, supplemented with a couple of "stars" (especially if one of them is the QB) and no glaring weaknesses, we will be able to compete for the title. Even when we have that we might need a few breaks to go our way and against another team, but both those things happen frequently. The idea that we can't get better is baffling to me, because we all know we have been better, much better at times.

Beyond that, the reality is whatever happens in the future in terms of conference realignment is not going to be dictated by anything WVU can do. All we can do is what we had to do last time, take the best opportunity available to us when forces beyond our control create change.

No one would disagree that in terms of hypothetical ideal situations being in the Big 12 is far down the list. But, when the option was the Big 12 or not being in a Power 5 conference, it wasn't just the best option, it was the only option if we want to be a big-time program. The unfortunate reality is that the ACC, SEC and Big 10 did not want us. The Big 12 actually probably needed us more than they wanted us, but thank God for that.

The mythical Eastern Conference people fantasize about would be great. Unfortunately, there is no chance on Earth, Penn State, Rutgers and Maryland, will leave the Big 10 and our other traditional rivals will leave the ACC and join us in a conference just because that would be best for us.

Could it someday happen? Who knows? If you think you have that kind of prescience you should be buying stock in the unknown little company that will be next generation's Microsoft or Google. What we do know is that whatever happens won't happen because of what WVU wants. We might get lucky and what happens benefits us and we can hope for that but we will have to do what circumstances dictate because we cannot control our own destiny at that level.
 
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sammyk said:
Yea Boise State is suffering, and like I posted in a previous post, playing some one who is a rival or who could be your rival every year has to be better than playing Kansas, Kansas State, Iowa State ect. Like I said where does WVU get most of it's players???? PA, VA, NJ, FL, DC, WV, OH. Where does the teams WVU play get their players TX, OK, KS. No rival, no connection lack of winning will equal worse bowls than if you were in a different conference which will hurt recruiting ect. Sorry guys this is deeper than Wings Ole
Click to expand...

You have to be in a power conference to get good recruits. If WVU was in the AAC, we would have closer opponents and recruiting would suffer. We have 4 starters on this team from the state of Texas. Everyone recruits Texas and Florida and conference footprints now stretch thousands of miles.
 
If WVU was winning 9-11 ball games a year recruiting would suffer??? Really I doubt that. But hear me out i am not a WVU hater by no means my Uncle Tom Domain played with Sam Huff at WVU, I have been to a ton of games there even though I am a PSU fan I never rooted against the 'EERs, lastly I have spent a lot of time money and dignity in Morgantown. I think if they were in an updated version of the AAC the AAC would be a power conference and WVU would win 9-11 games a year go to better bowls, get the same or better recruits and have rivalry games that the fine people of West Virginia could sink their teeth into again. Joining the Big 12 is a short term fix for money winning a lot is the long term fix
 
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Winning 9-11 games a as member of the AAC would be worse in every way other than bruising a few tender egos. Even going 12-0, it would take a huge amount of luck to make the playoffs. Playing that kind of schedule we would have to hope there were not four 1 loss or better Power 5 teams to even have a prayer and that wouldn't be a guarantee because a 2 loss team with a very high SOS might bet the nod. Recruiting would suffer. Most of our recruits under Nehlen, Rodriguez, Stewart and Holgorsen have come for the chance to play big-time football, not because they grew up a WVU fan, it's the closest school, or they love the great weather.

Take that away and the Florida kids might as well go Central Florida or one of the other Go5 teams in Florida and all the other states would have schools playing the same level football closer to their homes.

The original Big East was a good and sometimes unfairly maligned conference. The 2004-2011 conference was obviously weaker but it was still by definition a big-time (BCS) conference. The AAC is not only obviously much weaker in terms of product than even the 2004-11 Big East, it is by definition not a big time (Power 5) conference. And, it's geography isn't even that much better for us.
 
Who do you guys want? I think it is always going to be tough. Think about this. Colorado was very good under Bill McCartney then there were a few good years after he left. Once his players were gone his replacements did not do so well. Now Colorado is a consistent loser. I'm not so sure the conference is a good fit. I think the traveling wears on the team. But there are no other options. I think it will take a special coach to win at WVU under the current circumstances. The program needs more talent. I do not care how seasoned this defense is not many of them will play on Sundays.
 
We need better talent. But, we don't need hugely better talent across the board. Give even this team, which is not one of our better teams in any respect, a really good QB, a couple of better players on both lines and just one or two more "NFL caliber players" on both sides and the same remaining roster would form the foundation for a very good team. Better coaching would also be a HUGE help, but that would be enough talent to compete with anyone on any given day.

We've had teams like that and we can have them again.
 
OL used to be a WVU strength but it has not been for years. That is where it all starts. Dana needs to add some recruiters to his staff. He can win with the right players. Right now they are not here at several positions.
 
WVU lost one of the best OL coaches(Trickett) in the business that is why the OL is not as good. And if you want better recruits I say go the L'Ville route, bring in some whores
 
Ok they were rolling when he was at WVU. And if you talk to anyone in the ACC they would beg to differ with you on that.
 
Go ask FSU fans. They have not had but one good OL since he has been there. They were rolling against weak opponents when he was there.
 
Our staff now is DOMINATED by recruiters not people known for teaching or developing players or being strategists in any sense of the word.

Gibson, Deforest, Seider and Codgell are all considered recruiters first and foremost. What we may be more lacking is actually staff that makes the players we have the best they can be.
 
OK From 2002-2007 while Trickett was there WVU won 58 games since then 54 games. So WVU dropped from winning 9.6 games a year to 7.7. Now Rich Rod/Herb Hand/Dean Hood/Jeff Casteel ect makes a huge impact I know but WVU was ranked top 25, 5 out of the 6 years. Anyway still think they would be better off in a different conference. Or for the Big 12 to some how get some teams closer to WVU to join the conference
 
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I think White being the QB had a lot to do with that success along with a light schedule. WVU is not going to another conference.
 
Finding the right players for your system in terms of your evaluation, player type and position need, etc., and then coaching them well is far more important than star ratings.

According to this site, Baylor's recruiting:

2011: 1 4star, 14 3star. 3 2star, 1 0star

2012: 3 4star, 17 3star, 3 2star

2013: 3 4star, 15 3star, 4 2star

2014: 2 4star, 20 3star, 5 2star

They seem to be doing satisfactorily.
 
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That was pretty much my point-- that coaching makes a difference. I don't think Holgorsen has shown he is good at coaching football, certainly not good enough to be head coach of a Power 5 program that reaches it full potential.

Recruiting is a big part of coaching but the star ratings are of very limited value in assessing and comparing recruiting for the vast majority of teams. Sure, the handful of teams that routinely load up on top 100 overall players no doubt have really talented rosters. Beyond that, it's pretty meaningless.

The large majority of players at decent or better schools are 3stars. Most schools in the middle tier probably have as many or more 2stars than they have 4stars. Many 3stars end up not being good enough to play big time football, many are marginal players, many are good players and some end up being superstars and even NFL stars. Finding the right players is obviously important, but you can't just look at stars to tell if a team is doing that well. The ability to look at different players the recruiting services rank the same and see which ones are better players and a better fit for your program is important.

Even if you are good at that (which Baylor obviously is) you still have to be good at coaching them. While I don't think we are necessarily that great at evaluating players (QB recruiting being particularly worrisome in that regard) , I think the bigger problems are what we do with the players we have, in terms of developing and preparing them, devising schemes and gameplans to maximize our strengths an minimize our weaknesses, and calling plays on both sides of the ball.
 
wbgvwbgv said:
The ACC has not been kind to Pitt, and fan support is probably the lowest it has been in 50 years.
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this is just 100% false, not to ruffle feathers but where do you come up with that?

ACC on its worst day is better than where we were in the big east post-2003. And fan support is really soaring, though the fans i give a crap about never left.
the attendance thing never resonates with me, but ill address it. justin beiber sells more songs in a month than jimi hendrix did in his life, and psu has a lot of old men buying their sweatshirts. doesn't bother me.

But attendance likely will be better than any year since the 59k and change Pitt averaged in 2003, the last year the big east was a real football conference.
 
It would be extremely difficult to get someone who has already proven he is an elite coach to come here. Absent school ties (e.g., Huggins) it would be extremely unlikely unless a person had some transgression in his past that had lowered his appeal despite his prior success.

What some people seem to ignore is that people are not marked at birth as elite or non elite coaches. We could very well hire someone who proves he is an elite coach AT WVU. Once he's proven that, we might not keep him forever but that's a risk I'm willing to take.

Moreover, for those who offer the similar argument as reason to keep holgorsen no matter how we finish, I think you should contemplate the possibility one could be below elite level but still far superior to what we have.
 
Pitt is not in good position because the current landscape works against them. Times are different than what they were when Marino was there. Those were some great football teams and WVU played them tough. In 88 they played the Major Harris team tough until the last five minutes when it snowballed on them.
 
wbgvwbgv said:
It is always a little comical to see some low information posters work so hard to try and convince a handful (25 at most on this site) of actual fans that the end is near after every loss and the coach must be fired. It would be different if they were reaching the masses, but your likely to get more Marshall troll replies on this free anonymous board than anything else.

The ACC has not been kind to Pitt, and fan support is probably the lowest it has been in 50 years. There is very little interest in their ACC schedule which seldom includes the conference's better programs ( FSU and Clemson ). One of the many benefits about being in the Big 12 is that you get to play all of the ranked conference members every year which guarantees a lot of fan interest in your schedule, national exposure, and full stadiums.
Click to expand...
When I think of low info members of this board......some reason you usually come to mind
 
Baylor is a different program now. New facilities and a GREAT instate recruiting base. They also have money. Some of you do not understand the business aspect of college sports.
 
The one program that has untapped potential is Maryland. A good coach that can keep the talent home will win 8-10 games annually there.
 
mountiefan88 said:
Baylor is a different program now. New facilities and a GREAT instate recruiting base. They also have money. Some of you do not understand the business aspect of college sports.
Click to expand...

"When I hear a big-time college football program tout their facilities as that much better than their competitors, I imagine some lowly state school buried somewhere in Appalachia where the football players are stuck pushing wheelbarrows full of rocks and chopping down trees like Rocky training for a fight with Ivan Drago. "Boy", I think to myself. "I don't know how School X gets it done with their guys curling milk jugs full of water and studying game film that is actually on film. Must be tough."



And then I snap out of it, come back to reality and do a quick Google search. I pull up the football facilities at Rutgers, Wake Forest and Washington State. Who would have ever thought, but these Power 5 institutions have real, actual modern facilities that rival the old, traditional powers? It's almost like they've invested some of the television revenue back into the program in order to upgrade and stay competitive! My mind is blown!



Seriously, though. It's 2015. Everybody has shiny new things in college football. The days of any of your peers not having those things are long gone, and with them, the notion that bragging about your facilities should be anywhere near the part of your recruiting pitch where you move in to seal the deal."
 
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