Kimberly Cheatle should just step down now....

[EERs 3:16]

and save everyone the effort of firing her....

What happened before and after the shooting is more than just a lack of training and discipline. I also get that Trump is a big guy and not easily forced off stage but really.... The Secret Service shouldn't have waited for him to put on his shoes, the shouldn't have allowed him to raise his fist in the air, and they shouldn't have allowed him to be a target for a second possible shooter. Also, the fact that --post shooting-- people were allowed to get that close to him...is just further proof of failure......

 

[Gunny46]

 

[Gunny46]

Correct

 

[dave]

Correct

View embedded media

Amazing.

Not sure I agree with the criticism of the counter sniper team either. Just not enough information is public to do that at this point.

 

[Gunny46]

Amazing.

Not sure I agree with the criticism of the counter sniper team either. Just not enough information is public to do that at this point.

He got shots off from around 100 yards. Being extremely critical on the Operational Plan is definitely warranted. No way around that.

 

[dave]

He got shots off from around 100 yards. Being extremely critical on the Operational Plan is definitely warranted. No way around that.

Totally agree.

 

[WVU82]

 

[spartansstink]

I want to throw this out here.

If you can find it, there is a video of the two counter-snipers returning fire. There are a couple of things to note:

1) If you watch, even before the first shot is fired, BOTH SSCS are in their scopes. This is indicative that both have spotted the threat and are dialed in.

2) The speed at which they returned fire corroborates this. They didn't have to go through the protocol of identifying the threat, dialing in the dope, and returning fire.

That leads to two possible answers.
1) They didn't have permission from the brass to take out the threat; or
2) They don't have authority to engage until after shots are fired.

There is a third, but I don't think its likely - they were in on it. I'll just throw that out with the bathwater....

Last, the USSS, like every other government agency, is a bureaucracy. This means that crap rolls down hill. In other words, these two men are going to get the blame one way or another. One or both need to come forward and explain which of the above is correct before they get thrown under the bus so to speak.

To add, what is even MORE troubling, is that while it appears the CS team has identified the threat, the body men aren't moving. You KNOW that had to be transmitted to everyone. Recording logs will show one way or the other. Usually, this kind of stuff is released pretty quickly to the press (if for no other reason than to make themselves look good). The fact that it isn't already, or very soon, is likely indicative the number 1 answer above is correct.

 

[Gunny46]

I want to throw this out here.

If you can find it, there is a video of the two counter-snipers returning fire. There are a couple of things to note:

1) If you watch, even before the first shot is fired, BOTH SSCS are in their scopes. This is indicative that both have spotted the threat and are dialed in.

2) The speed at which they returned fire corroborates this. They didn't have to go through the protocol of identifying the threat, dialing in the dope, and returning fire.

That leads to two possible answers.
1) They didn't have permission from the brass to take out the threat; or
2) They don't have authority to engage until after shots are fired.

There is a third, but I don't think its likely - they were in on it. I'll just throw that out with the bathwater....

Last, the USSS, like every other government agency, is a bureaucracy. This means that crap rolls down hill. In other words, these two men are going to get the blame one way or another. One or both need to come forward and explain which of the above is correct before they get thrown under the bus so to speak.

To add, what is even MORE troubling, is that while it appears the CS team has identified the threat, the body men aren't moving. You KNOW that had to be transmitted to everyone. Recording logs will show one way or the other. Usually, this kind of stuff is released pretty quickly to the press (if for no other reason than to make themselves look good). The fact that it isn't already, or very soon, is likely indicative the number 1 answer above is correct.

How he got up there and why that location wasn't locked down is why someone has to get fired. That's basic PSD stuff.

They shot about a 150 yards and were probably using a 308 win. They zero it 100 yards. No real adjustments needed at that range. If their shot was over 200 yards then a quick adjustments were made.

Just look at drop chart for a 308 win. 6.5 creedmoor, or 300 win.


So rules of Engagement need asked under oath.

 

[spartansstink]

That was exactly the point. They didn't have to go through the protocol - first identifying the target, etc. as if they would if they hadn't already spotted him.

If they hadn't, they would have had to identify where the shots came from, find the shooter, determine dope (if necessary), then take the shot. All of this would have taken up valuable seconds. The fact the shots were returned so quickly shows they were already on him.

I agree completely. Just from looking at the pictures, and granted its a very limited view, there is a water tower that appears to be within a couple of hundred yards at most. It also appears that was the highest point in the local area. The question needs to be asked - why wasn't at the least an overwatch team up there? It would have given a birds-eye view of everything.

Apparently, Congress has requested her to appear on the 22nd. If she's still Director by then...

 

[Gunny46]

That was exactly the point. They didn't have to go through the protocol - first identifying the target, etc. as if they would if they hadn't already spotted him.

If they hadn't, they would have had to identify where the shots came from, find the shooter, determine dope (if necessary), then take the shot. All of this would have taken up valuable seconds. The fact the shots were returned so quickly shows they were already on him.

I agree completely. Just from looking at the pictures, and granted its a very limited view, there is a water tower that appears to be within a couple of hundred yards at most. It also appears that was the highest point in the local area. The question needs to be asked - why wasn't at the least an overwatch team up there? It would have given a birds-eye view of everything.

Apparently, Congress has requested her to appear on the 22nd. If she's still Director by then...

She needs to bring Mayorkas with her. I don't care if people like Bongino or not. He is making valid points and anyone who has worked in Government doing these type missions should get it. Hell it should be obvious to everyone. I'm not picking on the Agents. But leadership has tough questions that need answered.

He's a former President and the Nominee for the Republican Party. He should have a large security detail.

 

[oceantide83]

The entire Biden administration needs to step down and be tried for treason.

 

[dave]

I want to throw this out here.

If you can find it, there is a video of the two counter-snipers returning fire. There are a couple of things to note:

1) If you watch, even before the first shot is fired, BOTH SSCS are in their scopes. This is indicative that both have spotted the threat and are dialed in.

2) The speed at which they returned fire corroborates this. They didn't have to go through the protocol of identifying the threat, dialing in the dope, and returning fire.

That leads to two possible answers.
1) They didn't have permission from the brass to take out the threat; or
2) They don't have authority to engage until after shots are fired.

There is a third, but I don't think its likely - they were in on it. I'll just throw that out with the bathwater....

Last, the USSS, like every other government agency, is a bureaucracy. This means that crap rolls down hill. In other words, these two men are going to get the blame one way or another. One or both need to come forward and explain which of the above is correct before they get thrown under the bus so to speak.

To add, what is even MORE troubling, is that while it appears the CS team has identified the threat, the body men aren't moving. You KNOW that had to be transmitted to everyone. Recording logs will show one way or the other. Usually, this kind of stuff is released pretty quickly to the press (if for no other reason than to make themselves look good). The fact that it isn't already, or very soon, is likely indicative the number 1 answer above is correct.

The shooter was so close the snipers might have had to demagnify. If he was at 150-200 meters and they were using a 25x or 40x scope I imagine it might be hard to get on target without pulling up on the scope to reorient.

 

[atlkvb]

@Gunny46 and @spartansstink raise some very interesting questions in this thread that need answers. My gut tells me there is more to this than we're being told or are currently aware of. We know this government lies and is corrupt. That should be enough to keep everyone's antennas oriented towards towards finding some solid answers to these hard questions.

 

[EERs 3:16]

I want to throw this out here.

If you can find it, there is a video of the two counter-snipers returning fire. There are a couple of things to note:

1) If you watch, even before the first shot is fired, BOTH SSCS are in their scopes. This is indicative that both have spotted the threat and are dialed in.

2) The speed at which they returned fire corroborates this. They didn't have to go through the protocol of identifying the threat, dialing in the dope, and returning fire.

That leads to two possible answers.
1) They didn't have permission from the brass to take out the threat; or
2) They don't have authority to engage until after shots are fired.

There is a third, but I don't think its likely - they were in on it. I'll just throw that out with the bathwater....

Last, the USSS, like every other government agency, is a bureaucracy. This means that crap rolls down hill. In other words, these two men are going to get the blame one way or another. One or both need to come forward and explain which of the above is correct before they get thrown under the bus so to speak.

To add, what is even MORE troubling, is that while it appears the CS team has identified the threat, the body men aren't moving. You KNOW that had to be transmitted to everyone. Recording logs will show one way or the other. Usually, this kind of stuff is released pretty quickly to the press (if for no other reason than to make themselves look good). The fact that it isn't already, or very soon, is likely indicative the number 1 answer above is correct.

2) They don't have authority to engage until after shots are fired.

This would kind of defeat the intent of have USSS protection...... This isn't an agent's on the ground, it's an administrative/management problem. My guess is there wasn't direct and clear communication between local law enforcement and USSS, the initial reports of a gunman didn't make it to the people that mattered until it was too late, and there were enough security problems to raise more than a few eyebrows and that's a management/admin problem.

 

[dave]

2) They don't have authority to engage until after shots are fired.

This would kind of defeat the intent of have USSS protection...... This isn't an agent's on the ground, it's an administrative/management problem. My guess is there wasn't direct and clear communication between local law enforcement and USSS, the initial reports of a gunman didn't make it to the people that mattered until it was too late, and there were enough security problems to raise more than a few eyebrows and that's a management/admin problem.

There is a policy about clearing a shot like this because during the Bush administration there was either a shooting or nearly a shooting of an other government agent who was positioning and not communicating with the USSS.

 

[atlkvb]

There is a policy about clearing a shot like this because during the Bush administration there was either a shooting or nearly a shooting of an other government agent who was positioning and not communicating with the USSS.

That to me still doesn't explain why they didn't have that roof area scoped out, or confront him AFTER they were told by eyewitnesses that he was up on that roof with a rifle! My God do you have to be as comatose as creepy Joe Biden to not at least LOOK over there to see what was happening? We need some answers, and we need them NOW!

 

[SoCo]

2) They don't have authority to engage until after shots are fired.

This would kind of defeat the intent of have USSS protection...... This isn't an agent's on the ground, it's an administrative/management problem. My guess is there wasn't direct and clear communication between local law enforcement and USSS, the initial reports of a gunman didn't make it to the people that mattered until it was too late, and there were enough security problems to raise more than a few eyebrows and that's a management/admin problem.

3:16 is pretty good on this. That said, it is 1 and 2. But he is all over the rules of engagement.

Some here know one of my good friends is a retired sniper for the teams and the provide volunteer detail for the President and other officials when they travel. He was the rooftop counter sniper many times. He directly mentioned the rules of engagement and the communication between the locals and feds. Typical red tape. At least I hope it is typical and not unique to this situation.

 

[Gunny46]

3:16 is pretty good on this. That said, it is 1 and 2. But he is all over the rules of engagement.

Some here know one of my good friends is a retired sniper for the teams and the provide volunteer detail for the President and other officials when they travel. He was the rooftop counter sniper many times. He directly mentioned the rules of engagement and the communication between the locals and feds. Typical red tape. At least I hope it is typical and not unique to this situation.

Needing authorization to shoot depends on the senerio. If it's a hostage senerio where negotiations are taking place then authorization is usually required. In a senerio like this when conducting overwatch then authorization isn't going to be required. See threat stop threat. If they were told prior to the event they couldn't without permission someone needs investigated why that order was given.

 

[WVU82]

 

[Gunny46]

 

[WVU82]

 

[WVU82]

 

[WVU82]

 

[WVU82]

 

[WVU82]

 

[WVU82]

 

[WVU82]

 

[WVU82]

DefiyantlyFree


After watching tons of the footage and listening to all the podcasts discussing what happened, I have compiled a list of questions, does any of this make sense to people because to me it’s a hard no:

1. How did the gunman sneak a rifle onto the ground?

2. How did he even know that there was a building with rooftop access and a ladder?

3. After shots rang out who are the two people running from the scene?

4. Why was the shooter pacing around in front of the metal detectors? Did anyone find that suspicious?

5. The Secret Service tried to follow him, but how did he get away? And if he they were following a threat why did they let Trump get up on stage?

6. Why would the shooter think that that the snipers nest would not be patrolled by secret service? It is the first place that would be secured in a situation like this.

7. Why wasn’t anyone stationed on top of the snipers nest?

8. Why wasn’t anyone watching the sniper’s nest?

9. No one, except the shooter decided that it was necessary to watch the highest ground with the clearest shot?

10. Why was the ladder there?

11. Where was the drone surveillance ?

12. Why was there no action by the Secret Service when all of the eyewitnesses told them that there was a person with a rifle on that rooftop?

13. If they knew for 30 minutes that there was a threat and they were in fact looking for this guy, why would they allow Donald Trump onto that stage?

14. Why did the sniper have the shooter in his site for over a minute before taking the shot?

All of these questions need to be answered, and I mean, legitimately answered, not glazed over and memory holed.

 

[WVU82]

 

[WVU82]

 

[WVU82]

 

[Gunny46]

View embedded media

The Secret Service tells them where to post. If they didn't enforce that then shame on them.

 

[WVU82]

 

[WVU82]

 

[WVU82]

 

[WVU82]

 

[WVU82]

 

[WVU82]

 

[WVU82]