Huggs trending in the wrong direction.

[spartansstink]

Maybe try to implement a half court offense that might work with what you do have? Just waiting for a diamond in the rough that can do both hasn't worked out great so far. So if you can't get good offensive players that also play defense … maybe try to tailor your half court offense to be as independent of having those hard to find players as possible rather than practically requiring them? Also you can be a defensive coach with defense being the crux of your gameplan while still seeking advice or even possibly an assistant coach to help the weak points of shooting/offense.

It's like trying to fix a schematic problem by addressing it as a personnel problem.

This is what Huggins has been doing for several years now.

We've tried to feed the post for years - no matter who was playing it - WIlliams, Macon, Culver, whoever. Largely under the belief that you make it more often when shooting close than when shooting it far away. But, that doesn't really apply to us anymore. Our bigs are double-teamed, sometimes tripled, because Huggins' scheme says if its not there, throw it out and do it again. As a result, our bigs are now basically just throwing the ball up at the rim with a hope and and prayer that it goes in or we get an offensive rebound and put back.

While I'm at it, I would really LOVE to be the worst team in America in offensive rebounding instead of the best. Think about it...

Look at our bread and butter play. One of our bigs comes out to the foul line extended to receive a dump pass from a guard. He then pivots and tries to throw it to the other big who is posted on the block for an easy basket.

But teams have figured that out now. The person guarding the foul line big just sinks to cut off the entry pass. That big isn't a threat to shoot a 15 foot jumper because if he misses it he's coming out. He can't take it to the rim because he's dribbling right into a double team on the other side. So, the big passes it back to a guard who has to take a last-second shoot as the shot clock expires.

Then, we come back down the court and do it all again. All the while substituting liberally anyone not named Chase Harler who gets beat defensively.

(That's another thing - the substitutions aren't done to make the team better - they are done to punish the PLAYER; team be damned. That's juvenile...)

That's why I think not having the same shooting guard out there the whole game (subbing in just long enough to recover) is the MAIN thing that is hurting this team the most now. He can't get into a rhythm, he can't get better on both sides of the ball, if he's constantly watching from the bench for the first screw-up.This is what happens with all of our 2's. Nobody gets better by watching - you get better by playing. This is common sense.

Now back to your daily strawman and ad-hominem attacks.

 

[Rootmaster]

Nope.

Recruited for what he needed.

That's why we have a great team.

You dont know anything about this stuff.

GREAT? YOU'VE LOST ALL SENSE OF OBJECTIVE INTELLIGENCE.

 

[Darth_VadEER]

GREAT? YOU'VE LOST ALL SENSE OF OBJECTIVE INTELLIGENCE.

CAPITAL LETTERS

 

[Rootmaster]

CAPITAL LETTERS

On purpose little Darthy...thought it might help your comprehension.

 

[The Bell Tolls for Thee]

Long post...

Said nothing.

Let me shorten it up and spell it out for you. A defensive minded coach does not mean you have to be completely inept on offense. Not every good offensive player has to be a Harris, Henderson, etc... When your offensive plan hasn't worked with more than just the last few teams, maybe try something at least a little different considering the personel you have.

 

[Darth_VadEER]

Let me shorten it up and spell it out for you. A defensive minded coach does not mean you have to be completely inept on offense. Not every good offensive player has to be a Harris, Henderson, etc... When your offensive plan hasn't worked with more than just the last few teams, maybe try something at least a little different considering the personel you have.

But...

This is a good team.

So maybe they should just keep doing what they are good at.

 

[spartansstink]

Let me shorten it up and spell it out for you. A defensive minded coach does not mean you have to be completely inept on offense. Not every good offensive player has to be a Harris, Henderson, etc... When your offensive plan hasn't worked with more than just the last few teams, maybe try something at least a little different considering the personel you have.

Bells,

I give you tons of credit. You've patiently tried to argue from a logically sound perspective and encouraged debate. Kudos.

The problem is the people you are trying this with don't have the understanding of logical thinking or reasoning. Their go-to retort is to resort to an ad-hominem attack or build a straw man and attack that.

They are doing so, not out of spite, but out of ignorance of logical thinking. They haven't been taught what a logical fallacy is, much less how to identify and counter it. They've never seen an episode of Point-Counterpoint, they've grown up on Sponge-Bob and the Simpsons and they argue that way.

Carry on. However, it will likely be to no avail.

 

[Darth_VadEER]

Bells,

I give you tons of credit. You've patiently tried to argue from a logically sound perspective and encouraged debate. Kudos.

The problem is the people you are trying this with don't have the understanding of logical thinking or reasoning. Their go-to retort is to resort to an ad-hominem attack or build a straw man and attack that.

They are doing so, not out of spite, but out of ignorance of logical thinking. They haven't been taught what a logical fallacy is, much less how to identify and counter it. They've never seen an episode of Point-Counterpoint, they've grown up on Sponge-Bob and the Simpsons and they argue that way.

Carry on. However, it will likely be to no avail.

Yes...Bob Huggins grew up watching Sponge Bob and thats why he only has a Top 20 ranked basketball program right now.

If only he knew how to be logical...then he would win every game.

Its so simple.

 

[spartansstink]

See what I mean.

Straight over the head...

 

[Darth_VadEER]

See what I mean.

Straight over the head...

Nope.

You just arent providing an actual argument.

Durp...durp...score more.

Durp...make more baskets. Get better players.

You arent as smart as you think you are.

 

[OlegeezEER]

I understand that some are upset about the last couple of games but at the end of the day we are 18-7 ranked 17th and are heading for another Tourney bid. It will be are 10th in 13 years under Huggins. This year might not be the greatest but it sure beats last season. Huggins best days are more than likely behind him but he stills wins enough to keep us relevant.

 

[spartansstink]

Nope.

You just arent providing an actual argument.

Durp...durp...score more.

Durp...make more baskets. Get better players.

You arent as smart as you think you are.

Again, if you would just take the time to READ, my argument was made about 6 posts up.

Not one of those things was ever written by me in this thread.

If you want to counter the arguments written in the LONG post above, I'll gladly read and counter/discuss with you.

If you want to act like a 5 old, use logical fallacies, or resort to childishness, I will simply laugh at you for being just another ignorant example of WV education gone wrong.

 

[spartansstink]

I understand that some are upset about the last couple of games but at the end of the day we are 18-7 ranked 17th and are heading for another Tourney bid. It will be are 10th in 13 years under Huggins. This year might not be the greatest but it sure beats last season. Huggins best days are more than likely behind him but he stills wins enough to keep us relevant.

True that.

 

[Darth_VadEER]

Again, if you would just take the time to READ, my argument was made about 6 posts up.

Not one of those things was ever written by me in this thread.

If you want to counter the arguments written in the LONG post above, I'll gladly read and counter/discuss with you.

If you want to act like a 5 old, use logical fallacies, or resort to childishness, I will simply laugh at you for being just another ignorant example of WV education gone wrong.

If you think your post was anything besides standard internet drivel, you are wrong.

You are mad your favorite team lost some basketball games.

I mean, this is just so darn smart..


While I'm at it, I would really LOVE to be the worst team in America in offensive rebounding instead of the best. Think about it...

 

[spartansstink]

Really?

"Standard internet drivel" that you counter with "You mad"?

You're taking this debate too close to the heart there Darth. With nothing to counter with other than, not even a solid ad-hominem, but a silly response one would likely hear on the kindergarten playground.

Let me explain the offensive-rebounding leader line you took from the quote above. It means we MISS a whole lot of shots. That is, we are missing around 70% of all the shots we take - from bunnies up close to 3 pointers from Flatwoods. Maybe, if we didn't shoot so poorly, we wouldn't have to rebound so many. Pretty easy to understand for most people.

 

[Darth_VadEER]

Really?

"Standard internet drivel" that you counter with "You mad"?

You're taking this debate too close to the heart there Darth. With nothing to counter with other than, not even a solid ad-hominem, but a silly response one would likely hear on the kindergarten playground.

Let me explain the offensive-rebounding leader line you took from the quote above. It means we MISS a whole lot of shots. That is, we are missing around 70% of all the shots we take - from bunnies up close to 3 pointers from Flatwoods. Maybe, if we didn't shoot so poorly, we wouldn't have to rebound so many. Pretty easy to understand for most people.

Huggins teams are always great rebounding teams.

He teaches it. He recruits it.

All teams miss shots. Not all teams can effectively rebound. You just don't know your stuff.

We are a good rebounding team because we have good players who can rebound. Its an actual skill, not a side-effect from bad shooting.

Lots of poor shooting teams get killed in transition because - they can't rebound. You dont know the game.

 

[spartansstink]

Thank you. A much better post on your behalf. I'll try to respond accordingly.

A lot of what you wrote above is true. We have always been great rebounding teams under Huggins. He does teach it and recruit for it. I think we all want us to be a great DEFENSIVE rebounding team, but I'd much rather be better on the defensive boards than the offensive - they aren't mutually exclusive. But to say that for US it isn't a side-effect from poor shooting isn't anywhere near correct.

For evidence, I'll post where we have ranked statistically under Huggins shooting-wise.

• 19-20 (353) - 2p% (230) | 3p% (312) | FT% (331)
• '18-19 (353) - 2p% (287) | 3p% (309) | FT% (245)
• '17-18 (351) - 2p% (237) | 3p% (156) | FT% (25)
• '16-17 (351) - 2p% (164) | 3p% (116) | FT% (236)
• '15-16 (351) - 2p% (128) | 3p% (274) | FT% (274)
• '14-15 (351) - 2p% (289) | 3p% (291) | FT% (277)
• '13-14 (351) - 2p% (259) | 3p% (44) | FT% (96)
• '12-13 (347) - 2p% (290) | 3p% (273) | FT% (177)
• '11-12 (344) - 2p% (105) | 3p% (322) | FT% (243)
• '10-11 (345) - 2p% (199) | 3p% (201) | FT% (105)
• '09-10 (347) - 2p% (170) | 3p% (193) | FT% (120)
• '08-09 (344) - 2p% (181) | 3p% (231) | FT% (140)
• '07-08 (341) - 2p% (99) | 3p% (152) | FT% (170

Now, can you really say, after looking at the stats above and where we rank, with regards to every single D-1 school, that leading in offensive rebounding isn't a by-product of poor shooting and is a GOOD trait? Sure, everybody misses, the best teams usually less than everyone else, the best teams at around the 40% mark or better.

After 12 years, and multiple players come and gone, we can't get out of the doldrums and into the better half? That's too much to ask? I know I don't know a whole lot of basketball - that's why I'm asking the questions. But, when all I get is no answer other than attacks for asking the questions and perhaps, just perhaps, maybe a change is due to change our fortunes, it makes me wonder WHO does have the answers. Huggins clearly doesn't. Maybe nobody on here does either.

 

[Darth_VadEER]

Thank you. A much better post on your behalf. I'll try to respond accordingly.

A lot of what you wrote above is true. We have always been great rebounding teams under Huggins. He does teach it and recruit for it. I think we all want us to be a great DEFENSIVE rebounding team, but I'd much rather be better on the defensive boards than the offensive - they aren't mutually exclusive. But to say that for US it isn't a side-effect from poor shooting isn't anywhere near correct.

For evidence, I'll post where we have ranked statistically under Huggins shooting-wise.

• 19-20 (353) - 2p% (230) | 3p% (312) | FT% (331)
• '18-19 (353) - 2p% (287) | 3p% (309) | FT% (245)
• '17-18 (351) - 2p% (237) | 3p% (156) | FT% (25)
• '16-17 (351) - 2p% (164) | 3p% (116) | FT% (236)
• '15-16 (351) - 2p% (128) | 3p% (274) | FT% (274)
• '14-15 (351) - 2p% (289) | 3p% (291) | FT% (277)
• '13-14 (351) - 2p% (259) | 3p% (44) | FT% (96)
• '12-13 (347) - 2p% (290) | 3p% (273) | FT% (177)
• '11-12 (344) - 2p% (105) | 3p% (322) | FT% (243)
• '10-11 (345) - 2p% (199) | 3p% (201) | FT% (105)
• '09-10 (347) - 2p% (170) | 3p% (193) | FT% (120)
• '08-09 (344) - 2p% (181) | 3p% (231) | FT% (140)
• '07-08 (341) - 2p% (99) | 3p% (152) | FT% (170

Now, can you really say, after looking at the stats above and where we rank, with regards to every single D-1 school, that leading in offensive rebounding isn't a by-product of poor shooting and is a GOOD trait? Sure, everybody misses, the best teams usually less than everyone else, the best teams at around the 40% mark or better.

After 12 years, and multiple players come and gone, we can't get out of the doldrums and into the better half? That's too much to ask? I know I don't know a whole lot of basketball - that's why I'm asking the questions. But, when all I get is no answer other than attacks for asking the questions and perhaps, just perhaps, maybe a change is due to change our fortunes, it makes me wonder WHO does have the answers. Huggins clearly doesn't. Maybe nobody on here does either.

You dont even know what you are mad about.

Huggins doesn't produce great shooting teams. We know that. Thats not how he builds them.

Do you really think Devon williams, or Kevin Jones were only good offensive rebounder because we missed shots?

No

They were actually great at it.

Your entire, baseless argument goes back to - durp Durp we need to shoot da ball better. If we.make da basket we dont needa rebound'ed it much more.

 

[spartansstink]

You see, I'm not mad. You can't seem to understand that. I'm not posting out of anger. Frustration - perhaps a little but not anger. You're the only one here who's angry - resorting to name calling and childish jabs at the retarded.

Huggins doesn't produce great shooting teams. That's not a problem? Isn't the point of basketball to score more points than your opponent? Would being even a better shooting team, say in the top half of the country once in a while, be a worthy attribute to help us win more games? Huggins has won a LOT of games - don't you think he'd give them all up to win just the ONE that has eluded him all these many years? Wouldn't "shooting it better" help him achieve it? With your line of thinking so far, and the stats to back it up, that isn't going to happen - even in this mediocre year with no real dominant Goliath-esque team to have to go through.

So yes, we need to shoot the ball better. Now, what I'm asking is WHY we don't, after 12 years of wash and repeat. You claim to know basketball, or at least more than me which is probably true, do you have an explanation? You haven't so far - so maybe you and I are in this same basketball ignorance boat together - only I know it and am looking for a life jacket.

 

[TownesVanZandt]

If you look at Baylor last year.
They were slightly above average. Not great. They were young and the majority of that team came back.

Baylor is on another level this year.
Kansas is the #3 team in the country and Baylor kicked their asses in Lawrence.

WVU played a decent game against Baylor.
They aren't there yet. Doesn't mean they won't be in the future. .


You want to demolish the team because of a loss against the #1 team in the country on their own floor.
You blame Bob Huggins and what he is doing when what he is doing obviously is working.

 

[steeleer]

You guys are overthinking it. Our starting guards are an offensive liability. A pass first PG would be fine, but we are getting almost nothing at both spots.

our two best offensive guards are a transfer and a true freshman. Huggs historically doesn’t trust either year one. He’s got to move on and play those guys. They are the only way we have a chance at a deep run.

 

[MichiganHerd]

If you look at Baylor last year.
They were slightly above average. Not great. They were young and the majority of that team came back.

Baylor is on another level this year.
Kansas is the #3 team in the country and Baylor kicked their asses in Lawrence.

WVU played a decent game against Baylor.
They aren't there yet. Doesn't mean they won't be in the future. .


You want to demolish the team because of a loss against the #1 team in the country on their own floor.
You blame Bob Huggins and what he is doing when what he is doing obviously is working.

I agree with your take, and arguably one of the better defenses of Bob Huggins since KC used to defend him.

I personally believe WVUs players play scared, due to Huggins having a quick trigger, and an even quicker temper. With that said, the select few that can handle that ultimately end up being pretty decent players. Huggins style of play and coaching simply isn't for everyone.

 

[The Bell Tolls for Thee]

But...

This is a good team.

So maybe they should just keep doing what they are good at.

I'm not at all advocating that WVU change its identity and core. Sure WVU is good team this year and much improved from last year. But I thought Huggins made it clear that WVU is out to try for a championship. So if this young team is to grow into such a team in the next 2 years, the offensive production and guard play needs to improve. And it likely has to come from what's on the roster as I doubt WVU will be able to attract a ready to play freshman. JUCO could be a source, but risky to rely on that. I don't think we must change our defensive and rebounding mindset to come up with a better offensive plan since inlet passes and high low bigs has gotten skunked when the big games are being played.

 

[Darth_VadEER]

I'm not at all advocating that WVU change its identity and core. Sure WVU is good team this year and much improved from last year. But I thought Huggins made it clear that WVU is out to try for a championship. So if this young team is to grow into such a team in the next 2 years, the offensive production and guard play needs to improve. And it likely has to come from what's on the roster as I doubt WVU will be able to attract a ready to play freshman. JUCO could be a source, but risky to rely on that. I don't think we must change our defensive and rebounding mindset to come up with a better offensive plan since inlet passes and high low bigs has gotten skunked when the big games are being played.

Like you just said. This is a much improved team - and a good team overall.

You normally cant improve everything at once.

Focus on what you are good at and mask your weaknesses...that's something Huggins has always done well.

With our system, we normally score enough to win...which is what matters.

 

[Darth_VadEER]

You see, I'm not mad. You can't seem to understand that. I'm not posting out of anger. Frustration - perhaps a little but not anger. You're the only one here who's angry - resorting to name calling and childish jabs at the retarded.

Huggins doesn't produce great shooting teams. That's not a problem? Isn't the point of basketball to score more points than your opponent? Would being even a better shooting team, say in the top half of the country once in a while, be a worthy attribute to help us win more games? Huggins has won a LOT of games - don't you think he'd give them all up to win just the ONE that has eluded him all these many years? Wouldn't "shooting it better" help him achieve it? With your line of thinking so far, and the stats to back it up, that isn't going to happen - even in this mediocre year with no real dominant Goliath-esque team to have to go through.

So yes, we need to shoot the ball better. Now, what I'm asking is WHY we don't, after 12 years of wash and repeat. You claim to know basketball, or at least more than me which is probably true, do you have an explanation? You haven't so far - so maybe you and I are in this same basketball ignorance boat together - only I know it and am looking for a life jacket.

No, it is not.

He produces great defensive and rebounding teams, good post players, good system PG's, and typically the hardest working team on the court.

Basketball isnt a shooting contest. You are focused on perimeter shooting because it's the most noticable part of a game to an observer, and the easiest to critique - watch the whole game, not just the ball.

Everyone wishes for a team full of great shooters, great rebounders, great shot blockers, great scorers, great defenders, great hustlers, great foul shooters, great 3 point shooters, great post players, ect.

Wish in one hand, shit in the other....

 

[Rootmaster]

Like you just said. This is a much improved team - and a good team overall.

You normally cant improve everything at once.

Focus on what you are good at and mask your weaknesses...that's something Huggins has always done well.

With our system, we normally score enough to win...which is what matters.

61% of the time in games that count. Homer you missed the whole point of my thread with your neverending quest to sound like you remotely know anything about sports. Now...drool and speak.

 

[Darth_VadEER]

61% of the time in games that count. Homer you missed the whole point of my thread with your neverending quest to sound like you remotely know anything about sports. Now...drool and speak.

Your personal analysis doesnt matter to anyone but yourself.

 

[WVUALLEN]

Really?

"Standard internet drivel" that you counter with "You mad"?

You're taking this debate too close to the heart there Darth. With nothing to counter with other than, not even a solid ad-hominem, but a silly response one would likely hear on the kindergarten playground.

Let me explain the offensive-rebounding leader line you took from the quote above. It means we MISS a whole lot of shots. That is, we are missing around 70% of all the shots we take - from bunnies up close to 3 pointers from Flatwoods. Maybe, if we didn't shoot so poorly, we wouldn't have to rebound so many. Pretty easy to understand for most people.

It's the attempts at the basket after the first miss on the offensive rebound that's a killer. You take that one shot get the rebound and miss 3 tip in shots it's a killer. Those offensive rebounds and or 2nd chance shots as they say, need to go in the basket. If they don't then that's huge.

 

[Darth_VadEER]

It's the attempts at the basket after the first miss on the offensive rebound that's a killer. You take that one shot get the rebound and miss 3 tip in shots it's a killer. Those offensive rebounds and or 2nd chance shots as they say, need to go in the basket. If they don't then that's huge.

Yes, and its not only a matter of shooting better, but shooting smarter...create higher % shots.

 

[The Bell Tolls for Thee]

Like you just said. This is a much improved team - and a good team overall.

You normally cant improve everything at once.

Focus on what you are good at and mask your weaknesses...that's something Huggins has always done well.

With our system, we normally score enough to win...which is what matters.

I agree. But it hasn't been enough, and not just this year, to get over the hump of getting past the upper tier of Big 12. I'd like to see some better progression at the point this far into the season because I just don't see who we can run the offense through and distribute the ball effectively.

 

[TownesVanZandt]

I agree with your take, and arguably one of the better defenses of Bob Huggins since KC used to defend him.

I personally believe WVUs players play scared, due to Huggins having a quick trigger, and an even quicker temper. With that said, the select few that can handle that ultimately end up being pretty decent players. Huggins style of play and coaching simply isn't for everyone.

In any job you have expectations

College Basketball is teaching kids to become men.

Huggins having these expectations isn't a bad thing.
If you really watch WVU basketball you see the assistants and not Huggins doing the majority of the talking in the timeouts
If he really has his team the assistants don't talk as much as the players
As you have someone like Jevon Carter holding people accountable.
Top down approach

 

[Darth_VadEER]

In any job you have expectations

College Basketball is teaching kids to become men.

Huggins having these expectations isn't a bad thing.
If you really watch WVU basketball you see the assistants and not Huggins doing the majority of the talking in the timeouts
If he really has his team the assistants don't talk as much as the players
As you have someone like Jevon Carter holding people accountable.
Top down approach

Lol, no it is not.

It is about winning games.

You fell for the marketing...hook, line and sinker.

 

[SeronimusPratt]

You are seriously dumb...and juvenile...but humorous to trigger.

Bruh I come to the free board to piss off the choads then talk sports on the BL. Who’s winning here?