Hindsight is 20/20

[pharm3436]

With lasik 20/10. Admitting up front I still hold a grudge at how Coach Stewart was replaced (I admit he wasn’t getting us there): when all the smoke clears-was Lyons hire of Brown any worse than Luck’s hire of Dana IN TERMS OF OVERALL RESULTS?
Dana had to take us to Big XII, Brown had COVID, Portal, NIL.
I guess my feeling is that some say the last six years hurt us, I’m afraid the last 2+ Coaching regimes did.

 

[cam_blev]

With lasik 20/10. Admitting up front I still hold a grudge at how Coach Stewart was replaced (I admit he wasn’t getting us there): when all the smoke clears-was Lyons hire of Brown any worse than Luck’s hire of Dana IN TERMS OF OVERALL RESULTS?
Dana had to take us to Big XII, Brown had COVID, Portal, NIL.
I guess my feeling is that some say the last six years hurt us, I’m afraid the last 2+ Coaching regimes did.

Gimme Dana>Brown any day
at least one of them knew how to score points and made it entertaining

 

[BigC]

Gimme Dana>Brown any day
at least one of them knew how to score points and made it entertaining

Plus we were ranked almost every year Dana was here. In my opinion there is no comparison, I would take Dana’s on the field results over Brown’s all day, every day.

 

[ChrisWVU1]

Gimme Dana>Brown any day
at least one of them knew how to score points and made it entertaining

And won some big games and got kids drafted. We were at least relevant most years under Dana

 

[Blackberry Smoke]

Brown and staff came in with a defeatist attitude from Day One. I'll never forget Moore's first "one on one" interview with the press and talking about how surprised they were with the lack of talent on the o-line. I don't think hcnb ever really thought he could win here given the perceived "limitations" he was working under.

 

[TampaBay-Eer]

Dana 1000x over Brown. And that should tell you just how horrific NB was. I don’t think he gets another p4 chance again unless his ego and scheme get a complete 180.

The ego on Brown for how shitty of a coach he is tells me how little self awareness the guy has.

 

[Vernon]

With lasik 20/10. Admitting up front I still hold a grudge at how Coach Stewart was replaced (I admit he wasn’t getting us there): when all the smoke clears-was Lyons hire of Brown any worse than Luck’s hire of Dana IN TERMS OF OVERALL RESULTS?
Dana had to take us to Big XII, Brown had COVID, Portal, NIL.
I guess my feeling is that some say the last six years hurt us, I’m afraid the last 2+ Coaching regimes did.

Personally I felt Dana's period was far better than Neal's. He won about 8% more his games and actually beat some ranked teams and had WVU ranked. From a fan and media perspective, Dana's teams were fun to watch and few would make that claim about Brown's.

 

[trackboy]

As others have said, I would take Dana any day over Brown. It was time to move on from Dana but we were consistently ranked, beat top 10 teams, won an Orange Bowl and put players in the pros every year and played an exciting brand of football. Brown did none of the above...

 

[bobhertzel'ssweatpants]

Dana > Neal and it’s not really close.

 

[WVUtotheBig12]

With lasik 20/10. Admitting up front I still hold a grudge at how Coach Stewart was replaced (I admit he wasn’t getting us there): when all the smoke clears-was Lyons hire of Brown any worse than Luck’s hire of Dana IN TERMS OF OVERALL RESULTS?
Dana had to take us to Big XII, Brown had COVID, Portal, NIL.
I guess my feeling is that some say the last six years hurt us, I’m afraid the last 2+ Coaching regimes did.

No one is saying Holgorsen was the answer. The school he was once revered at and was close friends with the school’s largest booster didn’t want him to be the head coach anymore in a Group of 5 conference. With that said, he did a much better job than Neal Brown. If we had any semblance of a defense, we win the Big 12 in 2018. We probably finish second in 2014 if Clint doesn’t get injured. We won 10 games in 2016. In Neal’s best season, we almost lost the last game to a 3-8 Baylor team.

Orange Bowl win
3 Top 15 NFL Draft picks and another at the beginning of the 2nd Round
Several other Top 25 wins
Ranked in multiple years

 

[dshreves]

I think you can say we’ve made mistakes with the last three coaching hires….sure hope Rich Rod stops that streak!

 

[Mr. Kruger]

Dana fn sucked so it just puts into perspective how awful bean was. He made people forget how fn bad of a coach drunk was.

 

[BigC]

No one is saying Holgorsen was the answer. The school he was once revered at and was close friends with the school’s largest booster didn’t want him to be the head coach anymore in a Group of 5 conference. With that said, he did a much better job than Neal Brown. If we had any semblance of a defense, we win the Big 12 in 2018. We probably finish second in 2014 if Clint doesn’t get injured. We won 10 games in 2016. In Neal’s best season, we almost lost the last game to a 3-8 Baylor team.

Orange Bowl win
3 Top 15 NFL Draft picks and another at the beginning of the 2nd Round
Several other Top 25 wins
Ranked in multiple years

IMO what the last two coaching tenures has taught us is you don’t have to be a great coach to win here. Dana was average, but still had us near the top of the league several years and even though Brown was one of the 2-3 worst coaches in the league we were still a middle of the pack team. I will be surprised if RR doesn’t have us consistently in the top 3-4 teams in the league.

 

[TampaBay-Eer]

IMO what the last two coaching tenures has taught us is you don’t have to be a great coach to win here. Dana was average, but still had us near the top of the league several years and even though Brown was one of the 2-3 worst coaches in the league we were still a middle of the pack team. I will be surprised if RR doesn’t have us consistently in the top 3-4 teams in the league.

I think you are spot on here. Brown was horrible but man, his seasons could have looked a lot different if he won a game here or there (which he could have, there were games we gave away under him sans the few against ISU and last years TTU massacre).

this league is for the taking and a better coach like RR should have us in the top quarter percentile by end of year 2.

 

[wvu1962]

Dana had some success his biggest problem was defense and consistent recruiting he hated to recruit which with the portal he might have been able to make up for his recruiting. He really never recruited a good high school QB

 

[BigC]

I think you are spot on here. Brown was horrible but man, his seasons could have looked a lot different if he won a game here or there (which he could have, there were games we gave away under him sans the few against ISU and last years TTU massacre).

this league is for the taking and a better coach like RR should have us in the top quarter percentile by end of year 2.

I know we are having huge turnover in our roster, but I fully expect us to be in the top 4 teams in the league this season. As you said this league is there for the taking and I think the talent level will be pretty even from top to bottom. With RR’s drive and Alley coaching up our defense, I think we very well could be the surprise of the league .

 

[grcrown]

With lasik 20/10. Admitting up front I still hold a grudge at how Coach Stewart was replaced (I admit he wasn’t getting us there): when all the smoke clears-was Lyons hire of Brown any worse than Luck’s hire of Dana IN TERMS OF OVERALL RESULTS?
Dana had to take us to Big XII, Brown had COVID, Portal, NIL.
I guess my feeling is that some say the last six years hurt us, I’m afraid the last 2+ Coaching regimes did.

you would be correct. Both bad hires. Holgy is not a recruiter or a head coach. Brown was just not getting the quaterback he needed and could compete with the portal.

 

[Dublineers]

Dana went all-in in 2018 and was so close to pulling it off—arguably only a bad blocking out of bounds penalty away. NB was left a very depleted roster in 2019 and ironically probably did his best coaching job while here getting that team to 5-7.

 

[Jeepers Creepers]

I think you'd better have those eyes checked again if you can't see that Dana was head and shoulders above Brown.

 

[backcountry mounty]

I liked Brown better.

All the innovative stuff like ring around the rosey, holder in extra point taking a knee and those crazy cool contacts. Oh who could forget top golf and playing through the receiver. Don't ever, ever turn your head to look at the ball!

 

[AnthonyKrumpach]

1. I also hated how coach Stewart was done and it was nasty. Thing is the AD had the right to fire Stewart and hire who he wanted. It’s why he was brought in. I’m not sure why it had to be done the way it was. Definitely unethical and borderline illegal. Still I don’t hold that on Dana.

2. While quite a bit of Holgs success was from Stewart’s players/recruits, he still appeared to be more successful (maybe the word should be exciting) than Brown. Neal always seemed to have (on paper) much better roster, he just never got the best out of them. Dana on the other hand disliked recruiting and struggled to develop a QB.

Dana - less talented depth chart but got way more out of guys. Very exciting to watch but lacked any coaching on defense. Hated recruiting and it showed as the season progressed and the schedule got more difficult. Still most years you felt we could possibly outscore anyone on the schedule. At times the team was mentally weak but rarely backed away from a fight.

Neal - most preseasons you would think we could win 9-10 games with returning talent and quality recruiting classes. Problem was usually the best production was earlier in players careers and they tended to regress. Player development was bad, I can’t think of one defensive back who played better the longer they were here. Back seven on defense would usually be put in bad positions scheme wise. I wouldn’t say the team was mentally strong but they didn’t make a ton of bonehead plays (outside of maybe I love Lamp) but man were they freaking pushovers. I mean that 23/24 offensive lines SHOULD have been the best two year period in WVU history. For a line that will likely have 4 of the 7 starters play in the NFL, they disappointed.

 

[backcountry mounty]

1. I also hated how coach Stewart was done and it was nasty. Thing is the AD had the right to fire Stewart and hire who he wanted. It’s why he was brought in. I’m not sure why it had to be done the way it was. Definitely unethical and borderline illegal. Still I don’t hold that on Dana.

2. While quite a bit of Holgs success was from Stewart’s players/recruits, he still appeared to be more successful (maybe the word should be exciting) than Brown. Neal always seemed to have (on paper) much better roster, he just never got the best out of them. Dana on the other hand disliked recruiting and struggled to develop a QB.

Dana - less talented depth chart but got way more out of guys. Very exciting to watch but lacked any coaching on defense. Hated recruiting and it showed as the season progressed and the schedule got more difficult. Still most years you felt we could possibly outscore anyone on the schedule. At times the team was mentally weak but rarely backed away from a fight.

Neal - most preseasons you would think we could win 9-10 games with returning talent and quality recruiting classes. Problem was usually the best production was earlier in players careers and they tended to regress. Player development was bad, I can’t think of one defensive back who played better the longer they were here. Back seven on defense would usually be put in bad positions scheme wise. I wouldn’t say the team was mentally strong but they didn’t make a ton of bonehead plays (outside of maybe I love Lamp) but man were they freaking pushovers. I mean that 23/24 offensive lines SHOULD have been the best two year period in WVU history. For a line that will likely have 4 of the 7 starters play in the NFL, they disappointed.

I'll simplify it even more. Dana every couple of years could get football down.

In six years Brown never did. Little football thingys like snapping the ball correctly, running pre snap motion correctly, angles and tackling in the secondary, second level blocking out of the line, the advent of outside zone in the run game, catching the ball with your hands, stupid non stop penalties, etc,etc, etc.

Made it just never enjoyable to watch. Even when you won, you felt like you lost. At least every two years Dana's teams were fun to watch and relevant.

Brown was always trying to build his brand rather than building a football team. Cart before the horse. What'd Rich do the first time and what is he doing now? Built a football team first. Besides the abysmal defense Dana did that to.

Trust the Climb in the end meant "shut the f up. You didn't see that. I know what I'm doing. I'm the Coach. You are a simpleton fan."

I'm sorry but after that six years of misery and watching Rich's first four months, I cannot believe people aren't ecstatic that Rich is back. Not to drone on but live a little guys. You are getting ready to enjoy watching football again. I think we as a fan base have forgotten what that's like

 

[WVUtotheBig12]

1. I also hated how coach Stewart was done and it was nasty. Thing is the AD had the right to fire Stewart and hire who he wanted. It’s why he was brought in. I’m not sure why it had to be done the way it was. Definitely unethical and borderline illegal. Still I don’t hold that on Dana.

2. While quite a bit of Holgs success was from Stewart’s players/recruits, he still appeared to be more successful (maybe the word should be exciting) than Brown. Neal always seemed to have (on paper) much better roster, he just never got the best out of them. Dana on the other hand disliked recruiting and struggled to develop a QB.

Dana - less talented depth chart but got way more out of guys. Very exciting to watch but lacked any coaching on defense. Hated recruiting and it showed as the season progressed and the schedule got more difficult. Still most years you felt we could possibly outscore anyone on the schedule. At times the team was mentally weak but rarely backed away from a fight.

Neal - most preseasons you would think we could win 9-10 games with returning talent and quality recruiting classes. Problem was usually the best production was earlier in players careers and they tended to regress. Player development was bad, I can’t think of one defensive back who played better the longer they were here. Back seven on defense would usually be put in bad positions scheme wise. I wouldn’t say the team was mentally strong but they didn’t make a ton of bonehead plays (outside of maybe I love Lamp) but man were they freaking pushovers. I mean that 23/24 offensive lines SHOULD have been the best two year period in WVU history. For a line that will likely have 4 of the 7 starters play in the NFL, they disappointed.

You make several good points. However, Neal never had anyone like Grier, Sills, Jennings, Kevin White, Kyzir White, or David Long Jr. on the roster. The star rankings might have favored NB, but Holgorsen was a much better evaluator of talent.

 

[SoCo]

I'll simplify it even more. Dana every couple of years could get football down.

In six years Brown never did. Little football thingys like snapping the ball correctly, running pre snap motion correctly, angles and tackling in the secondary, second level blocking out of the line, the advent of outside zone in the run game, catching the ball with your hands, stupid non stop penalties, etc,etc, etc.

Made it just never enjoyable to watch. Even when you won, you felt like you lost. At least every two years Dana's teams were fun to watch and relevant.

Brown was always trying to build his brand rather than building a football team. Cart before the horse. What'd Rich do the first time and what is he doing now? Built a football team first. Besides the abysmal defense Dana did that to.

Trust the Climb in the end meant "shut the f up. You didn't see that. I know what I'm doing. I'm the Coach. You are a simpleton fan."

I'm sorry but after that six years of misery and watching Rich's first four months, I cannot believe people aren't ecstatic that Rich is back. Not to drone on but live a little guys. You are getting ready to enjoy watching football again. I think we as a fan base have forgotten what that's like

Hold the Rope! Even Rich had his goofy slogans.

 

[LittleRivEER]

Dana fn sucked so it just puts into perspective how awful bean was. He made people forget how fn bad of a coach drunk was.

So Krugs, I'm just curious how you feel about Dana...

 

[LHANDSDC]

Someone say hindsight?

 

[roadtrasheer]

Someone say hindsight?

Wood

 

[backcountry mounty]

Hold the Rope! Even Rich had his goofy slogans.

HOLD THE ROPE!!! (Powerful and inspirational story for your team) - CoachFore.org

I came across this story called HOLD THE ROPE several years ago, and it became a major mantra for us during the 2005 Training Camp. I rewrote and added some things to what I originally found. I went down to Home Depot, and bought a long rope. I cut about a 5 inch piece off

coachfore.org

 

[WVUALLEN]

With lasik 20/10. Admitting up front I still hold a grudge at how Coach Stewart was replaced (I admit he wasn’t getting us there): when all the smoke clears-was Lyons hire of Brown any worse than Luck’s hire of Dana IN TERMS OF OVERALL RESULTS?
Dana had to take us to Big XII, Brown had COVID, Portal, NIL.
I guess my feeling is that some say the last six years hurt us, I’m afraid the last 2+ Coaching regimes did.

Lyons hire of Brown was a good gamble. Until Lyons decided in Brown 2nd season to lock him down with guaranteed buyout of his entire salary. Huge mistake for doing so in year 2.

Lucks hire of Dana also a gamble. A coach that had never been a head coach. Not a great choice.

Neither AD, Lyons or Luck, looked long or hard enough for replacements.

 

[backcountry mounty]

IMO what the last two coaching tenures has taught us is you don’t have to be a great coach to win here. Dana was average, but still had us near the top of the league several years and even though Brown was one of the 2-3 worst coaches in the league we were still a middle of the pack team. I will be surprised if RR doesn’t have us consistently in the top 3-4 teams in the league.

Biggie, kind of disagree with that. Dana had a great offensive system that he was willing to change when needed. Not a great Coach but a great system. Enough to win some games.

Brown saw himself as a GM and that made him a subpar coach. Never could see the forest for the trees but it was enough to win some games.

I think both missed huge opportunities to win this conference if they had been better head coaches.

Jmo but the need for WVU to have a solid all around Coach is the most important thing. Everyone can get players, you have to have someone to Coach them hard and fast. That's where the difference is going to be and you can see it in the detail in Rich's first four months.

My opinion anyway..Maybe we're saying the same thing.

 

[WVUALLEN]

You make several good points. However, Neal never had anyone like Grier, Sills, Jennings, Kevin White, Kyzir White, or David Long Jr. on the roster. The star rankings might have favored NB, but Holgorsen was a much better evaluator of talent.

Holgs brought in offensive transfer skilled players. He recruited poorly. He got enough talent at WR, RB and QB to try and out score everyone and cover up his horrid defensive teams.

Brown mistake was trying to bring in favoritism players and start them because he thought he owed friends of the family something. Brown always played those that had seniority over a younger more talented player. He didn't always go with the best.

 

[WVUALLEN]

Gimme Dana>Brown any day
at least one of them knew how to score points and made it entertaining

Neither one could stop another top offensive team from scoring.

 

[BigC]

Biggie, kind of disagree with that. Dana had a great offensive system that he was willing to change when needed. Not a great Coach but a great system. Enough to win some games.

Brown saw himself as a GM and that made him a subpar coach. Never could see the forest for the trees but it was enough to win some games.

I think both missed huge opportunities to win this conference if they had been better head coaches.

Jmo but the need for WVU to have a solid all around Coach is the most important thing. Everyone can get players, you have to have someone to Coach them hard and fast. That's where the difference is going to be and you can see it in the detail in Rich's first four months.

My opinion anyway..Maybe we're saying the same thing

Misinterpreted my post because you basically just said the same thing that my post said.

 

[RAK]

Forward, I am not planning on watching reruns of games. I want to watch a tough,, winning team starting late this summer. I have read we beat Penn State 3 straight years in the 1950s. The past is just that the past. The future is what matters. Play like you have horrible jock itch.

 

[backcountry mounty]

Interpreted my post because you basically just said the same thing that my post said.

I think your initial sentence threw me off. Lol. I'm just so damn glad that Baker saw the importance of hiring a football coach first, rather than an offensive guru or a guy that wants to be General Manager of a professional football team.

In retrospect, I still really like Hartline and think I sort of like Kotelnicki but those two would be learning on the fly without the resources that Penn State and Ohio State provide.

Rich has been there done that. There is absolutely nothing that he hasn't seen or isn't ready for. Still rough around the edges but as about as much of a "coach" that you could ever ask for.

 

[LHANDSDC]

Wood

Just the right amount of jiggle.

 

[88]

With lasik 20/10. Admitting up front I still hold a grudge at how Coach Stewart was replaced (I admit he wasn’t getting us there): when all the smoke clears-was Lyons hire of Brown any worse than Luck’s hire of Dana IN TERMS OF OVERALL RESULTS?
Dana had to take us to Big XII, Brown had COVID, Portal, NIL.
I guess my feeling is that some say the last six years hurt us, I’m afraid the last 2+ Coaching regimes did.

yes, the NB hire was worse, but even worse was the extension after a 6-4 abbreviated season. Had we played FSU, MD & OK that year were were staring at 5-7 or 6-6 at best. one can say that's due to DH leaving a depleted line, but what is he supposed to accomplish when Lyons had plans to get rid of him

 

[Mr. Kruger]

I think your initial sentence threw me off. Lol. I'm just so damn glad that Baker saw the importance of hiring a football coach first, rather than an offensive guru or a guy that wants to be General Manager of a professional football team.

In retrospect, I still really like Hartline and think I sort of like Kotelnicki but those two would be learning on the fly without the resources that Penn State and Ohio State provide.

Rich has been there done that. There is absolutely nothing that he hasn't seen or isn't ready for. Still rough around the edges but as about as much of a "coach" that you could ever ask for.

Wasn’t rich like his 11th choice? Haha.

 

[backcountry mounty]

Wasn’t rich like his 11th choice? Haha.

Right. Lol. I don’t there were 11 coaches available to choose from.

 

[JWG66]

Personally I felt Dana's period was far better than Neal's. He won about 8% more his games and actually beat some ranked teams and had WVU ranked. From a fan and media perspective, Dana's teams were fun to watch and few would make that claim about Brown's.

How about comparing Ollie to Shane? Give me Ollie all day long and 2X on Sundays.