Believe it or not, we have made that push. WVU provides more support to its football program than most universities.
Fire Dana...
- Thread starter WiiWii
- Start date
Believe it or not, we have made that push. WVU provides more support to its football program than most universities.
Did you mean to respond to me? If so you need to read my post again. WVU had Big East talent and faced Big East teams each week with great success. Now they have Big 12 talent and are not having great success against Big 12 teams. Did that help you "dude"? I'm guessing no so let me help, I'm referring to coaching.
I guess you summed up my point. Our recruiting has picked up, our talent has picked up on the roster, and we are facing better teams.....BUT.....we have better talent on our team. That should equate to progress in a new conference.
I like Dana.....or should say "liked". In year #5 we should not be starting out 0-3 in the league. I didn't expect 3-0, to be realistic I thought 1-2. Baylor was the only game in the first 3 that I had chalked up as a definite "L". But we should be better than what we are against OSU, a team we manhandled last year at their place. And we had Oklahoma, but turnovers killed us (as usual).
It's coaching and there is no other reason. We have talent, but we have a coach that can't manage a game. We have an offense with no identity. We are very undisciplined in every aspect of the game.....all those fall right on the head coach.
Agree. I still think that Holgorsen provides WVU the best chance of being competitive in the Big 12. Just as Stewart, Nehlen, Cignetti, and Bowden were criticized after losing (remember the airplanes with banners for Stewart & Nehlen), Holgorsen will be the target of some low information fans. And RR never experienced the catcalls because the conference schedule was so pathetic after Miami, BC, and VT departed to the ACC.
Any calls for a new head coach should at least provide the name of who would be the replacement. So far most of the names provided have been jokes: Fisher, Saban, RR, Holliday, Terry Bowden, etc. etc.
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My life won't change one bit if Dana is fired. I have no personal or professional investment in the decision. Maybe the new coach will be better, maybe he won't.
I would love to know how a person can assess players on teams that West Virginia had while they were members of the Big East...................and compare them to members of any of our Big 12 teams. I just don't have that ability and doubt anyone else has the ability. We all know that the number of stars is of little consequence. If the total number of stars a team has means Winning Football games..................then Notre Dame and Texas would win the NC every year. So..............if you wanna pay Holgs off..............gord head on!
The decisojn wouldn't and isn't a knee jerk reaction, this has been discussed for a long time among contributors and fans and in the media. If a decision is made to end his tenure, it won't be knee jerk....in fact, ther hasn't been a knee jerk decison at WVU like that unless you want to bring up Bill Stewart.
I think we are making progress- get ya numbers up used to be in the Dana camp but I think he has seen the light. I'm glad your love for the mountaineers overcomes your personal ties to certain members of the staff (which I like our staff!). Dana just isn't a leader.
If he resigned, he'd probably forfeit the remainder of this contract. That's millions of dollars he'd be walking away from, when he could simply just wait to be fired and collect the whole darn thing.
Oh contrare, I knew the idiots would come out of the woodwork. I almost hope that they fire Dana so that I can laugh at you for the next 5 years...but I would never wish that on my school.
When are you people going to figure out that surprising a team in one game is very different than playing week after week, year after year?
I know, you don't want to hear that. DElusions busted...
Plus your logic works both ways......don't we also see the same teams week after week? Only difference is our coaching staff
In 2006 the BE went 5-0 in bowl games and we finally won a Gator Bowl defeating Ga Tech and Megatron..S Fl had one of the best pair of DE's in history in G Selvie and J Pierre-Paul..and the talent we played against at Miami..we defeated Miami 17-14 when they had Warren Sapp and Ray Lewis.
Pretty sure that was earlier than 2006. Those guys were in the NFL by then. Just saying.
Wii...I can appreciate your position re: those that seem to show up during a difficult game or right after a loss...I respect your opinion re: the coach, as it has been similar to mine over the last few years, and Baylor is one damn good program yet again this year, who we managed to hang with for at least the first half...but that Okie St game still has me quite concerned and it's not regarding the players, it's the coaching. My opinion Is starting to lean the way of Atreides, who's thoughts I also respect...I will always support the program , but I am losing confidence in this HC. He and his staff seem like very good recruiters (although some would debate the qb position), his decision making /game management is starting to become disturbing....would you agree Dana has some work to do in this regard? I hope he gets them back on track and I am pulling for him...
I would love to know how a person can assess players on teams that West Virginia had while they were members of the Big East...................and compare them to members of any of our Big 12 teams. I just don't have that ability and doubt anyone else has the ability. We all know that the number of stars is of little consequence. If the total number of stars a team has means Winning Football games..................then Notre Dame and Texas would win the NC every year. So..............if you wanna pay Holgs off..............gord head on!
it was 1993 our first year in the BE and we won it...and got spanked by Fl
I was at the OSU game and the play in the first have was undisciplined, pathetic, embarassing, shameful (whatever other adjectives that I can't think of right now) and that is largely the coaching staff's fault. I know I have pissed off quite a few posters by not going with the company line this weekend (including the owner of this board), but I am not really a Holgerson defender. He has weaknesses...some important ones. My only point is that changing course right now could be (almost assuredly would be) disastrous to the program. I hope our administration has more sense than the average fan.
Our program is not getting better. In fact, it is going in the opposite direction, and you think changing course is a bad idea? Change is always risky. The only thing riskier is the fear of change. So, how long do you suggest we stay the course with the same results?
Well, Vernon, you are certainly in a bad mood since Saturday. I can understand that. Since you keep bringing up how recruiting is so much better, I thought that I would run some numbers. This is all based upon the Rivals recruit ratings and we all know that these have lots of flaws, but it is the best that we have right now and, I think over time, the errors wash themselves out and this is a valid analysis.
wVu Big East
2002: 2.3 1.72
2003: 2.52 1.99
2004: 2.38 1.68
2005: 2.48 1.84
2006: 2.63 1.94
2007: 2.96 2.05
2008: 2.52 1.98
______________________________________Joined Big 12
wVu B12
2009: 3.08 3.00
2010: 3.15 3.16
2011: 2.95 3.09
2012: 2.93 3.05
2013: 2.96 2.95
2014: 2.95 2.86
2015: 3.1 2.91
Average 2005 - 2008: 2.65
Average since 2009: 3.02 (did not count 2016 because the class is not complete yet)
So, yes, our recruiting has improved...marginally. A 14% improvement to be precise.
HOWEVER, now lets look at how we compared to our conference mates in both of these periods:
From 2002 - 2008: We averaged 2.54 compared to an average of 1.88. So we averaged 35% better star ratings than the other teams in the Big East conference.
From 2009 - 2015: We averaged 3.02 compared to an average of 3.00. So we averaged 0% better star ratings than the other teams in the Big 12 conference. In fact, we are very close to the average for the conference.
So, Vernon, to use your own logic, we had significantly better than average "Big East" players when we played in the Big East and, now that we are in the Big 12, although it appears true that our recruiting has improved some, our players are essentially average as compared to the players on the other teams in the Big 12 conference.
So, no, it is NOT all coaching....I wish it were not true, btw, because coaching is easier to fix.
I'm saying I think Dana and the university might work together go settle on a buyout #. Holgs looks burned out on the sidelines. He tried to do way too much himself by not hiring an OC. Every time the camera is on him he is yelling at someone or pulling out his hair.
I wouldn't be surprised if he wants out. He can go back to the midwest and be an OC somewhere and probably do well wherever he goes.
One side point to my analysis...if you notice, the B12 average star ratings have decreased some the last few years. That is almost entirely Texas recruiting sucking the last few years compared to their history. I wonder if this has something to do with TAMU going to the SEC...if true, does not bode well for the long term stability of this conference.
Just an aside, but noticed that and thought that I would mention it.
Just an aside, but noticed that and thought that I would mention it.
I never once said recruiting is much better, appreciate you trying to put words in my mouth. I said WVU supposedly had Big East talent when playing in the Big East and now they have Big 12 talent. That doesn't at all say it's "much" better. You obviously missed the point and you obviously don't know a lot about recruiting or talent but yes WVU has more overall talent than they did when the played in the Big East. It's enough to win more games than they have over the last 3-4 years. You can play around with the numbers all you want but it is what it is.
I've been in a bad mood with this board because I'm tired of the bullshit that goes on over here. You guys don't want to pay for the content we provide but you think you should be able to come here and act however you want. I'm tired of that and really couldn't care less if that offends you.
Oh, it doesn't offend me. I would have to care about how you judged my opinion to be offended.
BTW, my point is valid and the numbers back me up.
I don't think you have anything to worry about. The opinions on this board carries less weight than the broom pushers after the games.
So this is about money? We do have the right to come here and voice our concerns with the program. That is why they call it a "free board." I do not believe we should be calling players names or saying things that hurt the program, but we certainly do have the right to voice our concerns about coaches who get paid a lot of money to run the teams we love. I understand we have to pay for content concerning recruiting and so called inside information about the program, but that should not extend to our overall feelings about the program. If that is what has ruined your weekend, I'm guessing it is something else. And I really don't care if that offends.
No your point isn't at all valid. You proved that the recruiting is better but tried to twist it by saying it's not 'better' than the other Big 12 teams, which makes zero sense. You're trying to suggest it's not coaching so let's say that recruiting is exactly the same as every other Big 12 teams but WVU isn't winning at least .500 of their conference games. How do you explain the same recruiting talent at WVU losing to the same talent at other conference schools more often than not?
WVU has had enough talent to win more than seven, four and seven games in the last three years. What would be funny is if they end up with a decent season and we have to listen to you tell us how it's coaching.
So by decent season, do you mean we end up with another 6 or 7 win season, and battle with Texas Tech for the number 7 spot in the conference? Personally, I do not see that as a successful season, regardless of what conference we are in.
You really think I'm going to put up with the same people coming here and attacking other users, attacking players and coaches and I'm not supposed to be upset that they also don't care to be a customer of my business? What is wrong with some of you, do you live in some crazy ass world were treating people poorly is a right of yours? That's fine, just go do it somewhere else. If this were any other business would you expect me to allow these people to walk in around paying customers and cause trouble? Why? See you don't look at it as a business. Do you realize how much time I have to devote each day to coming over here and preventing fights, personal attacks, etc? But hey why shouldn't I allow you to act however you want, that's how things work today huh?
I have disagreed with people on this board but I have never attacked them personally. I have and will continue to voice my opinion about coaches who get paid a lot of money to run the teams we love so much. When my points of view differ from another poster, I should not be judged on whether or not I pay for a premium subscription. Some of those who pay you are just dillusional as the rest of us. Vernon, I'm guessing I agree with you on your intentions, but the being a paid customer should not be the deciding factor on all issues.
I just went back looked at my numbers and realized that I screwed up the year that we jumped to the B12. It really does not change the result at all, although it is interesting that the recruiting has really not improved much by this analysis (6% increase in average star rating). The main point is that we are only recruiting average for our new conference.
BTW, we did have one very bad year, but otherwise we are 9-9 in 2014 and 2012. Yes we were 2-7 in 2013 and that was not a good result...no QB that year and yes, that is Dana's fault.
Very limited data, but with one outlier, we are an average Big 12 team, just like our recruiting.
Corrected analysis before someone corrects me on my mistake:
wVu Big East
2002: 2.3 1.72
2003: 2.52 1.99
2004: 2.38 1.68
2005: 2.48 1.84
2006: 2.63 1.94
2007: 2.96 2.05
2008: 2.52 1.98
2009: 3.08 2.61
2010: 3.15 2.32
2011: 2.95 2.79
______________________________________Joined Big 12
wVu B12
2012: 2.93 3.05
2013: 2.96 2.95
2014: 2.95 2.86
2015: 3.1 2.91
Average 2005 - 2011: 2.82
Average since 2012: 2.99 (did not count 2016 because the class is not complete yet)
So, yes, our recruiting has improved...marginally. A 6% improvement to be precise.
HOWEVER, now lets look at how we compared to our conference mates in both of these periods:
From 2005 - 2011: We averaged 2.82 compared to an average of 2.28. So we averaged 24% better star ratings than the other teams in the Big East conference.
From 2012 - 2015: We averaged 2.99 compared to an average of 2.94. So we averaged 1.7% better star ratings than the other teams in the Big 12 conference. In fact, we are very close to the average for the conference.
Vernon
1. I do not believe that I attacked anyone directly. I simply told a general group of people that they needed to "grow up" because I believe that their reaction is based upon emotion, not reason. If that is attacking other posters, well then I went over the line.
2. I do not go through my day worrying about whether someone likes my opinion -- on what ever the topic -- so I am not offended at all by what you said to me. Further, I respect the fact that you built this business and that you are working your ass off to grow it including by boadening your offerings to include travel. Being an entrepreneur is a hard, hard job -- trust me, I know from experience having done it a number of times. So I am not offended one bit.
3. I am not sure why a meltdown of this type (or a few counter opinions) would be unexpected in a situation like this or, frankly, even a bad thing. I used to be a paying Blue lot member and if it got crazy over here, I always had the Blue lot for refuge. That said, it is your business, not mine, so you run it as you want.
4. Never once attacked a player. Not something that I do. These are kids and, as a group, we need reminded of that.
Frankly, I am surprised that I am not already banned. Disagreeing with you is not something that many posters do and live to tell the tale. That said, you don't really have to ban me. If you want me to go, I will do so. I would rather not, but I respect you as an entrepreneur and this is your business, so just say the word and I am out. To be 100% honest, it is just not that important to me.
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It's most definitely the coaching. Most times when a coach is fired and a replacement hired within two years you'll see the truly special coaches make vast improvements. That's why I started questioning Dana in 2012. We regressed in a major way with most of the same skill players as the year before. He wasn't complaining about their talent level when he was winning the Orange Bowl and on SportsCenter. But as soon as the wheels came off he threw them under the bus immediately. Refused to take any responsibility for the implosion and the excuses started. And every year since then it has been rinse and repeat.
