Could see a WVU athletics in a power conference like this.

[Rootmaster]

Scenario: Ok and Txs go elsewhere for more money etc. WVU is left with the remaining other seven. Bold move made maximizing market coverage, cable and a league wide network (with Texas LHN out of the way.)

Big 12 becomes the Big 16 with an Eastern and Western Division, CCG etc.

Western: Ok State, Kansas, Kansas St, Iowa St, TCU, Texas Tech, Baylor and new adds BYU and Colorado State (Denver market)

Eastern: WVU with some old foes and new ones...Cincy, Memphis, UConn, UCF, Navy, USF, ECU.

Result: Killer market coverage for cable and branded network appeal. Easier fan support. Very good football and exceptionally good mens and womens basketball. Reduced travel costs. etc

A true national conference. Just sayin'

 

[3xWVUenginEER]

The flaws in your argment are these:

1A. Oklahoma is joined like a Siamese twin to Oklahoma State. They will not be separated. Despite OU dominating State in football forever, their conjoined forever.

1B. Texas can't just up and leave without taking Texas Tech and maybe another Texas school with them. Even to the SEC where A&M is already, TX Tech ain't getting left behind.

I'm both paces, politics and politicians would never allow either.

As for the Big 16 you talk about, I hope WVU drops sports before being with those in that Eastern Division. WVU essentially would be joining the AAC. East Carolina would be the best opponent in that division from a sizzle & history standpoint. They do have fans and a following. I respect that school and fanbase.

2. "Killer Markets" don't mean a lot. The SEC doesn't have big markets. The have fans.

If markets meant anything, the AAC and Big East would have been the most successful conferences ever.

 

[GetYaNumbersUp]

The problem is that would no longer be a power conference.

It would be the P4 and your "Big 16" would join the current G5.

 

[MichiganHerd]

The Eastern half would be Conference USA, 1997

 

[Cuyahoga Falls Eers]

It's Power 5 membership or you're not playing with the big boys.

However that is accomplished if the Big 12 splits up. Meanwhile, I'll be enjoying Big 12 games in Mountaineer Field again in 2016, and probably beyond.

 

[Buckaineer]

The eastern division proposed is the sort of thing WVu may be facing in a few years if these important changes don't get enacted.

Kansas State,
Iowa State
Baylor
TCU
WVU

Texas Tech too- the SEC doesn't need them so it's probably PAC or bust and it's not like that conference is doing well financially.

 

[Rootmaster]

LOL. How old are you? " I hope WVU drops sports before being with those in that Eastern Division". Now that would be a real intelligent decision. Did you drop crayon class in Pre-K?

BTW: To all those who are apparently reading comprehensive challenged. This thread was not something I am proposing. It is however a scenario that could happen if Tx and Ok run from the Big 12-2=10...which is increasingly possible. A scenario that might be a salvation for the Mountaineers.

And for those who continually think that no school out there not in a P5 conference is "worthy" of playing WVU in the conference...maybe this is what the ACC and SEC feel about WVU?

As far as performance goes...how has WVU's on field play under the current HC proven that WVU would roll through a schedule that would pair them with the Eastern foes each year and cross over games with the Western half? For that matter how would WVU's mens and womens basketball do head to head against UConn, Cincinnati, Memphis, Iowa State and Kansas State each year? Stop thinking with the size of your....little pinky.

The point of this thread is: if the Big 12-2=10 does not expand back to at least 12 and a name school, or two, defect then WVU will be homeless or in a different neighborhood.

 

[GetYaNumbersUp]

A conference with Colorado State, Navy, the directional Florida's, ECU, etc. will always be a mid major conference.

That would be a terrible league to play in.

 

[Rootmaster]

 

[3xWVUenginEER]

"BTW: To all those who are apparently reading comprehensive challenged. This thread was not something I am proposing. It is however a scenario that could happen if Tx and Ok run from the Big 12-2=10...which is increasingly possible. A scenario that might be a salvation for the Mountaineers."

You threw it out there. If you can't take it when someone points out the flaws, don't put it out there.

"And for those who continually think that no school out there not in a P5 conference is "worthy" of playing WVU in the conference...maybe this is what the ACC and SEC feel about WVU? "

Couldn't give 2 $#!+$ what the acC or tobacco road thinks. They got 3 schools that are football schools. The rest are who the f$&@ cares basketball? Wouldn't trade 1 season in the Big XII for a century in that basketball conference. There's 8 of 9 opponents that take football seriously in the Big XII and the 9th is where basketball was invented literally.

As for the SEC, WVU doesn't cheat well enough to compete there. WV just doesn't have the $$$$$ to cheat in the SEC.

"As far as performance goes...how has WVU's on field play under the current HC proven that WVU would roll through a schedule that would pair them with the Eastern foes each year and cross over games with the Western half? For that matter how would WVU's mens and womens basketball do head to head against UConn, Cincinnati, Memphis, Iowa State and Kansas State each year? Stop thinking with the size of your....little pinky."

1. Are you really that dumb? Rhetorical question, don't answer cause you are. Dana Holgorsen in the last 4 seasons has played 4 of the toughest 6 to 8 schedules in the last 36 seasons, which might as well say 4 of the toughest 6-8 schedules In the history of WVU football. Only someone with a "little pinky" would want to weaken that by adding in easier competition. If Ya got any meat, you want to do better and improve, not take the easy road.
2. Men's & Womens basketball don't even factor in. They don't pay the bills nor do they ever move the dial in college sports. Football is all that matters. The rest is just filler.


"The point of this thread is: if the Big 12-2=10 does not expand back to at least 12 and a name school, or two, defect then WVU will be homeless or in a different neighborhood."

The worst thing you can do if headed for a divorce is take on more mouths to feed. If someone wants out of a marriage, let them go. Otherwise they're always looking and your life is miserable. Better to die on your feet than live on your knees.

I still figure no expansion cause at least 3 schools in Texas will say "Hell No." To it. I say "God Bless Texas" for that. I like Filet Mignon Steak in the schedule as opposed to hamburger helper.

BTW this copy and paste and argue back & forth BS is a waste of time. Too many knuckleheads think quantity is better than quality. They don't see how good it is. I only do this about once every 6 months.

Try to educate the less educated with facts. It never works. Truly my intellectual souperiority will never be appresiated. The commonars just don't get my vast knowlige.

(It's called sarcasm btw)

Have at it.
I'm out for a while.

If they add anyone from the AAC there goes the best conference WVU has ever had.

 

[michaelwalkerbr]

Six years ago, WVU WAS 'Cincinnati'. How arrogant, excusing inexcusable losses to a 'tough' schedule. KSU was so tough last season WVU had to find a way to give them the game.

 

[pressvirginia]

The long and short of it remains WV might not be in the place it ultimately needs to be or will be.

Total athletic revenue has increased, but nothing else. In the race to get on TV, we're in the same place as many years before, from my set at least.

The BXII is all but in the same position it was in 2010 & 2011, if OU & TX might again bail.

WV football has regressed considerably (NFL results are nice though) and basketball has sustained then excelled. Combined neutral.

Time will tell, but I believe WVU will come out okay in the end. We bring top 25 all-time football and basketball both, and not many can claim that.

 

[Buckaineer]

WVU football was already "regressed". They were losing to schools like ECU and Colorado in case someone didn't notice. The difference is WVU is now in a more difficult conference. The depth that exists now wasn't there before, But WVU hasn't found another Geno or especially another Pat White to lead the way.

As far as " nothing else"? Guess all the facility improvements that have been possible since are all imagination, just like WVU having every game on television now, not to mention regularly playing top 10 and 15 teams and top 25 and actually having them visit WVU every year as well.

 

[Buckaineer]

Six years ago, WVU WAS 'Cincinnati'. How arrogant, excusing inexcusable losses to a 'tough' schedule. KSU was so tough last season WVU had to find a way to give them the game.

Do you get the feeling some are hoping WVU has to drop down to the mid majors as though that would be a good thing?

 

[michaelwalkerbr]

That appears to be the case. I'd like to see two group of five teams in new major TV markets become competitive power 5 teams. TCU did it and WVU is getting there, so can someone else.

 

[SteelHeadEer]

WVU is the Land Grant institution and Flag bearer for the whole state. It will never be left out even though the ole WV inferiority complex will always have "us" worrying.

 

[TexasforevEER]

WVU football was already "regressed". They were losing to schools like ECU and Colorado in case someone didn't notice. The difference is WVU is now in a more difficult conference. The depth that exists now wasn't there before, But WVU hasn't found another Geno or especially another Pat White to lead the way.

As far as " nothing else"? Guess all the facility improvements that have been possible since are all imagination, just like WVU having every game on television now, not to mention regularly playing top 10 and 15 teams and top 25 and actually having them visit WVU every year as well.

Don't ever think that schools like ECU and Colorado just roll over for the big boys like WVU football. Appalachian State lit up Michigan .............. at the Big House ..........once upon a time. Things happen. We won't know the difference in 100 years.

 

[Rootmaster]

UConn is the flag ship university of Connecticut. Massachusetts is the flag ship university of Massachusetts. North Dakota. South Dakota. Montana, New Mexico etc. Flag shipmansship doesn't help them much.

 

[topdecktiger]

LOL. How old are you? " I hope WVU drops sports before being with those in that Eastern Division". Now that would be a real intelligent decision. Did you drop crayon class in Pre-K?

BTW: To all those who are apparently reading comprehensive challenged. This thread was not something I am proposing. It is however a scenario that could happen if Tx and Ok run from the Big 12-2=10...which is increasingly possible. A scenario that might be a salvation for the Mountaineers.

And for those who continually think that no school out there not in a P5 conference is "worthy" of playing WVU in the conference...maybe this is what the ACC and SEC feel about WVU?

As far as performance goes...how has WVU's on field play under the current HC proven that WVU would roll through a schedule that would pair them with the Eastern foes each year and cross over games with the Western half? For that matter how would WVU's mens and womens basketball do head to head against UConn, Cincinnati, Memphis, Iowa State and Kansas State each year? Stop thinking with the size of your....little pinky.

The point of this thread is: if the Big 12-2=10 does not expand back to at least 12 and a name school, or two, defect then WVU will be homeless or in a different neighborhood.

It has nothing to do with teams being "worthy" of being in a P5 conference. Being a P5 conference is basically determined by how much money ESPN/Fox are willing to pay for the TV contract. If your conference is getting ~$20 million a year from the TV deal, you're considered a P5 conference. If you're getting ~$3-4 million a year from the TV deal, you're considered G5. That's basically it.

The problem with the Big 16-scenario is that this conference probably wouldn't get a big TV contract.

 

[Rootmaster]

"probably wouldn't get" ? Why? If Ok and/or Txs leave what would happen to the current tv contract in the Big 12-2=10? The current conference is big market challenged as currently structured. Why do you think the Big 10 took Maryland and Rutgers? On field performance..not. Market coverage in NYC and Baltimore/Washington.

 

[topdecktiger]

"probably wouldn't get" ? Why? If Ok and/or Txs leave what would happen to the current tv contract in the Big 12-2=10? The current conference is big market challenged as currently structured. Why do you think the Big 10 took Maryland and Rutgers? On field performance..not. Market coverage in NYC and Baltimore/Washington.

Because you have to markets AND big name teams. As another poster pointed out, if it was strictly based on markets, then the AAC/Big East and CUSA would have big contracts. They don't. The reason is, they don't have big name teams.

The Big Ten already had the big name teams (Ohio St, Michigan, Nebraska, Penn St, etc.). They have plenty of teams that can draw ratings. They just needed bigger markets to showcase those good teams, which is why they took Maryland and Rutgers.

In the Big 16 scenario you described, that conference doesn't have any big ratings draws. Without Texas and Oklahoma, then there aren't any anchor teams that draw big ratings.

 

[Rootmaster]

Then your view of the future is pretty bleak for WVU lol.

 

[pressvirginia]

I agree with SteelHead, WVU will prevail & be fine in the end by one way or the other.

Even the oft criticized Big East found success, was televised nationally & won BCS bowls after being twice hit by ACC expansion. WVU 3 of them over SEC, BXII & ACC champs. L'Ville I believe beat an ACC champ in the Orange & also beat Florida in a Sugar. There were several national championship contenders & top 10 clubs, including 09 Cincy with Brian Kelly that went 12-0.

Whether the present BXII, a new look BXII, the ACC, SEC or some newly blended league to be formed, the program will find a place. Heck who woulda ever thought WV would be in the BXII in the first place? Something will materialize.

 

[topdecktiger]

Then your view of the future is pretty bleak for WVU lol.

No, it's not. For example, let's just say Texas goes to the Big Ten. The SEC and ACC will probably expand to renegotiate their TV contracts, to keep up with the Big Ten. They aren't going to expand with mid-major schools (particularly the SEC). For the ACC in particular, West Virginia would be a new market (albeit a relatively small one) and a quality program, which the ACC could use.

 

[Rootmaster]

why would the acc need the small wvu market? the list of schools with bigger markets and available is long. the acc has never, ever, wanted wvu and is less likely to want us today. They have Pitt which last time I noticed is in the "Pittsburgh" market which is the closest metro to Morgantown. and the sec....that's only a twelve pack dream. wvu is now tied to the schools in the big 12-2=10 and what happens going forward. for the best future...expand today.

 

[topdecktiger]

why would the acc need the small wvu market? the list of schools with bigger markets and available is long. the acc has never, ever, wanted wvu and is less likely to want us today. They have Pitt which last time I noticed is in the "Pittsburgh" market which is the closest metro to Morgantown. and the sec....that's only a twelve pack dream. wvu is now tied to the schools in the big 12-2=10 and what happens going forward. for the best future...expand today.

Because it's not strictly about markets. It's about markets AND big name teams. If the ACC expands, aside from Notre Dame, there are no big name teams available. The only teams left are schools like Memphis and Cincinnati. Those schools may be in a big market, but they don't deliver that market. Like other posters have said, the AAC has plenty of big markets, but they have a lousy TV contract. The reason is because they don't have any big name teams. The ACC would be better off adding a big name like West Virginia than adding mid-major teams that can't deliver their markets, like Cincinnati or Memphis.

 

[GetYaNumbersUp]

It's not ALL about markets, hence the reason that KU and OU would be 2 of the 3 teams with options if this conference implodes.

Both are name brands and that is valuable to a conference, but I don't expect someone like you to understand that.

 

[Rootmaster]

Why is WVU considered a big brand name for tv? (Other than the fact that I set my life to catch as many games as I can!) I know we are all fans but come on now? Do you base it on national championships won or I know, we once beat Clemson badly in the Orange Bowl.

Seems like we have a lot of folks on this board who would have made great Captains on the Titanic. I say however, just avoid the iceberg by planning properly.

 

[~IRWT~]

The problem is that would no longer be a power conference.

It would be the P4 and your "Big 16" would join the current G5.

Distinct possibility we dont get picked up by a P5 if the Big 12 needs to disband. Hopefully our brand/quality would be enough but we have a terrible market and you know what that means. Nothing wrong with folks trying to game out what that might look like should we get screwed.

Worst case scenario.

Who would be left?

WVU
KSU
TCU
ISU
Tech
Baylor

For starters, that is quite a bit of haves that would raise hell if their golden teete is pulled from them. Who knows what they could force from the NCAA.

Who do you add that creates enough of a league to force a seat at the table. Those teams alone are better than what Big East had when we played in it. 5 teams capable of being ranked Top 25 and 2-3 capable of Top 10 any given year.

To play football you have to add teams no matter how unattractive a scenario that may be.

West Virginia
BYU
Baylor
Texas Tech
TCU
Iowa State
Colorado State
Cincy
Memphis
Central Florida
Connecticut
Kansas State

Would suck better def better than any group of 5 conference and better than the Big East ever was. Would of been seen as a big win if we beat someone like BYU or Texas Tech regular season in those days. Lets face it.

Maybe good enough and have enough troublemakers to force the P4s hand into some level of acceptance.

 

[Rootmaster]

I agree with your view...one which is not part of the head-in-the-sand crowd.lol. Actually too many people/businesses would have a vested interest in having the Big 12-2=10 remain a P5 in some form rather than have it slip a tier. Public opinion, being what it is however, would probably view a reconstituted conference (your view, mine or others) at a distant fifth to the other four power conferences. And, they could be right. But then again, who would have predicted the success of Baylor and TCU either. Path to the NCC would be harder but still doable...and once done the conference would rise again in perception. Key to a stable future however still comes down to expanding by two now before anything hits the fan (like a departure of Ok and/or Tx.). That gives any future scenarios two to four more P5 schools to work with thus enhancing P5 status and sustainability. The Big 10, SEC and ACC aren't going to expand more at the moment. They are already bloated and negotiating. Putting hopes into those three are like boarding a life raft that has a gaping hole in the bottom...not a good bet for program survival.

 

[Woody in Helvetia]

WVU is a good draw for several reasons. First there are large numbers of displaced West Virginians all over the country. Thus we do get good ratings on TV. Our fans travel very well. And we have a foot in several markets - Wash. Charlotte. Pitt. If the Big 12 crumbles there will be expansion in all four of the power conferences.

 

[Rootmaster]

WV is a small state. WVU is an average sized school. WV's thin numbers spread out just like any other state expats do...but not in the numbers that Tx or Cal or on and on do. It is pure numbers. We don't have them so stop kidding yourself. As far as TV goes ratings for WVU games are just ok unless they are playing...the big boys who actually draw most of the numbers. As for fan following...unfortunately doesn't do anything for the conferences anymore. Dollars are in media coverage/ markets which we don't unfortunately have. As far as foot in markets go. I'd say that any other school could say the same thing...but in larger numbers in most cases. And then there is the old the other conferences will expand argument. Based on what? Need...no. Media dollars...no. Unless you are Tx or Ok of course. Bottom line is WVU's hope for the future lies in immediate Big 12-2=10 expansion and if Tx and or Ok leave some sort of new conference consisting of the rest of the Big 12 and best available out there in markets that matter. Our ego driven opinions won't matter.

 

[michaelwalkerbr]

WV is a small state. WVU is an average sized school. WV's thin numbers spread out just like any other state expats do...but not in the numbers that Tx or Cal or on and on do. It is pure numbers. We don't have them so stop kidding yourself. As far as TV goes ratings for WVU games are just ok unless they are playing...the big boys who actually draw most of the numbers. As for fan following...unfortunately doesn't do anything for the conferences anymore. Dollars are in media coverage/ markets which we don't unfortunately have. As far as foot in markets go. I'd say that any other school could say the same thing...but in larger numbers in most cases. And then there is the old the other conferences will expand argument. Based on what? Need...no. Media dollars...no. Unless you are Tx or Ok of course. Bottom line is WVU's hope for the future lies in immediate Big 12-2=10 expansion and if Tx and or Ok leave some sort of new conference consisting of the rest of the Big 12 and best available out there in markets that matter. Our ego driven opinions won't matter.

I've never questioned you, but WVU is not an averaged size school. Enrollment for the fall 2013 semester was 29,466 for the main campus, while enrollment across all campuses totaled 32,348. WVU offers 191 bachelor's, master's, doctoral, and professional degree programs in 15 colleges.

WVU has produced 24 Rhodes Scholars, 36 Goldwater Scholars, 22 Truman Scholars, and five members of USA Today's "All‑USA College Academic First Team." WVU is also now a Research 1 accredited university, another step closer to being AAU certified.

WVU's best hope does indeed lie with the Big 12, as the athletic budget quickly approaches $100 million dollars and facility improvements are all the local contractors can keep up with. Texas has made NO mention of leaving the Big 12, why would they? Even Boren from Oklahoma has retracted his vague threat of leaving the conference. He seems intent on making it stronger. Where in the world is this "Woe is us attitude" coming from?

 

[pressvirginia]

I would say the 'WVU market' would be comparable to that of the rest of the Big 12 except for Texas and TCU. Aren't they all mostly small college towns? Where are the big metro markets in the SEC outside of Atlanta and N.O.? Knoxville, Tuscaloosa, Auburn, Oxford, Starkville, it's all relative but people apparently are watching because the games are quality and impactful.

Our football games are now nationally televised on Fox or FS1. Every BXII hoops game was broadcast nationally on the ESPN lineup. Like Woody says there's alums and fans all around the country. I'm in Calif. There's other Mountaineers living in my building and I've met and come across many others before. They watch the games on television. I don't miss any.

Many Eers fans in Fla, Pa, Ohio, N.Car, etc. Also a strong presence in NYC. If it's a quality game with ranked teams, national implications and so on, football fans will tune in from anywhere. I watch many games outside of my market because of national broadcasts and general interest in sports.

 

[Woody in Helvetia]

If the Big 10 expands to 16 then the SEC will counter with the addition of two. So will the ACC.

If the SEC takes 2 first then the Big 10 will jump as well as the ACC.

There will be a chain reaction. No conference wants to be left behind. The only question mark is what is the P12 going to do if thing break.

West Virginia is in very good shape compared to everyone else in the B12 other then Tex and OU. Kansas basketball is the only brand that would be in front of WVU.

And remember the ESPN and Fox both told the Big 12 that WVU was the best choice in 2012.

 

[michaelwalkerbr]

I would say the 'WVU market' would be comparable to that of the rest of the Big 12 except for Texas and TCU. Aren't they all mostly small college towns? Where are the big metro markets in the SEC outside of Atlanta and N.O.? Knoxville, Tuscaloosa, Auburn, Oxford, Starkville, it's all relative but people apparently are watching because the games are quality and impactful.

Our football games are now nationally televised on Fox or FS1. Every BXII hoops game was broadcast nationally on the ESPN lineup. Like Woody says there's alums and fans all around the country. I'm in Calif. There's other Mountaineers living in my building and I've met and come across many others before. They watch the games on television. I don't miss any.

Many Eers fans in Fla, Pa, Ohio, N.Car, etc. Also a strong presence in NYC. If it's a quality game with ranked teams, national implications and so on, football fans will tune in from anywhere. I watch many games outside of my market because of national broadcasts and general interest in sports.

Oklahoma, as well as most of the Big 12 schools are actually smaller than WVU. OK has 20,000 undergraduate students. Texas has 39,000. OSU, 20,400 and little TCU at 10,300.

 

[pressvirginia]

ESPN has long been supportive of WVU, I've felt. Those old Thursday night showcases were big for both sides. I think some of their largest Thursday night audiences in ESPN history.

Game Day seemed to love coming to Morgantown both football and basketball. The hoops team the last couple years has had a big presence on ESPN with games, on Sports Center and ESPN.com. Huggs had a lot of camera time with ESPN during the past season in games, in studio and on the radio.

WVU is historically in both revenue sports top quality & has had a large TV presence on national broadcasts. There aren't many who compare over the years in both football & basketball.

 

[Buckaineer]

When you look down the road, what happens would determine how much of a chance schools in conferences have.

Can't see how the BIG 12 will collapse because of revenues, but the ACC would not. Even a conference network isn't going to catch them up so at some point their top dogs are gone and the value gone. Notre Dame holds that key but they don't want to change.

The PAC has a better chance because the Big Ten has a Rose Bowl deal with them.

But how many major leagues will there be if contraction happens? 2? 3? 4?

If it does ever go to a 16 team situation and the BIg 12 is not one then how many slots are there?

ACC- really one spot. They aren't expanding without their pipe dreams Notre Dame, PSU or Texas. Because that is what will increase revenues per school in that conference and that's what matters, Any ACC fan saying differently is trying to trick you into supporting inaction because action by the BIG 12 means ACC options are gone.

PAC 12- four spots. Not expanding with eastern teams though.

Big Ten- Only going for AAU schools contiguous to Big Ten States with a small possibility of an OU level school-no WVU.

SEC- two spots but if schools like Texas and OU are available then they are going to expand in the west

So I see one decent chance if the ACC could land someone else to help increase revenues and one possible slot in the SEC, but that comes down to western teams available and how much they need another Texas team or which Oklahoma teams are available.

 

[GetYaNumbersUp]

If the Big 10 expands to 16 then the SEC will counter with the addition of two. So will the ACC.

If the SEC takes 2 first then the Big 10 will jump as well as the ACC.

There will be a chain reaction. No conference wants to be left behind. The only question mark is what is the P12 going to do if thing break.

West Virginia is in very good shape compared to everyone else in the B12 other then Tex and OU. Kansas basketball is the only brand that would be in front of WVU.

And remember the ESPN and Fox both told the Big 12 that WVU was the best choice in 2012.

Oklahoma State football is a bigger name brand than WVU football. TCU could be argued also.

 

[LowFatMilk]

TCU football as a 'brand' over WVU ? Yea...you would have to argue over that one.

TCU is a hot program but I highly doubt it has anything close to the following of the Eers ( even in our bad seasons). It's a numbers game... ...do they even have 10,000 students ? A long history of football success (or the exact opposite)? Do you recall EVER seeing a TCU hat/shirt while on vacation at any random spot outside of Texas? ....I bet you see WVU on a fairly regular basis (insert Myrtle Beach joke here).

I won't argue OK St. ....but the Horned Frogs is laughable.