I am extremely happy with 9 wins per season. However, some believe that we should win 10+ year after year. I don't know where that belief came from. I think going 6-3 in the Big 12 is not a bad year, either.
GAME THREAD West Virginia football at Baylor
- Thread starter Keenan Cummings
- Start date
So you disagree that this is by far the weakest Big 12 schedule WVU has faced? How much did he improve it? Why were there no improvements from 2020 until 2023? How many of those improvements were necessary because of regression under his last 4 year watch.
I'm not saying he didn't improve the program. I am saying that the perception of that improvement is inflated by the very favorable schedule. I'm also saying that the baseline state of the program which has so much room for improvement is at least due to his ineptitude at making improvements over the previous 3 years if not actual regression he has presided over.
He wasn't in charge of the schedule. You cannot fault him for WINNING the games the LEAGUE put in front of him. He went 6-3 this year in conference. I don't look at the teams we did not play, because we did not play them and you cannot judge based on hypothetical. I judge on what I SEE. And I saw a team that hung in there with Penn State (who proved to be a very good team). And I saw a team that beat everybody it should have EXCEPT one team (Houston).
People like you that are judging him based on the "weak conference schedule" are just grasping at anything to try to prevent yourself from enjoying this season.
EDIT: To answer your question about 2020-2023......it was pretty obvious why.......he (Brown) was stubborn and refused to change his offensive scheme and kept looking for that prototypical dropback QB, when it was obvious (as it has shown this year) that WVU's offensive performance is better with a mobile-running QB. And this shows that Brown has made good growth in his coaching this year by accepting Greene as his starting QB when most everyone was saying Marchiol best "fit" Brown's style.
Yep. Except for the last drive, our offense was non-existent in the second half.
You are right that I cannot fault him for winning the games put in front of him. However it is a fair to critique him for barely winning against average to bad teams in Pitt, Texas Tech and TCU. It is fair to critique him for losing to a really bad Houston team. It is fair to critique him for being beaten like a drum by both PSU and OU in his fifth season at WVU. It is fair to critique him for blowing the OSU game at home in his 5th season.
Again, the last 4 years of futility have made this year look far better than it actually is. Yes it is an improvement, but an improvement from a level far below anything WVU has experienced in the last 40 years. Brown has failed in all 5 of his seasons, including this one, to eclipse any of Holgorsen's 8 seasons at WVU with the exception of one (2014). It is ironically fitting that this point was driven home by Brown actually losing to Holgorsen on the field this year.
After 5 years at the helm, this is what WVU should be in a down year and not the pinnacle of a coach's success at WVU. And while it is movement in the right direction, it isn't so big a movement that cools his seat so much as keeps it from getting hotter. This needs to be just a step toward bigger and better seasons to come and not a new "standard", or worse yet, an aberration.
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Holgorsen is a bum. He is also rich unemployed OC that thinks he's a head coach.
Wow. Damn. You really hate Brown and cannot enjoy an 8-4 season and must nitpick away. Listen, I know you expect 10+ wins and playoff appearances........but that's not reality. And you calling this year a "failure" is......well.....absurd. Sorry that you feel this way and hope that you find enjoyment in our national title year......
You are either obtuse or intentionally misinterpreting what I am posting to create a straw man. All I am saying is that WVU is 8-4 after 5 seasons of Brown and of those 8 wins the best one was a 20-13 win vs 6-6 Texas Tech. WVU got boat raced by 2 of the good teams on the schedule and collapsed in the 4th at home against the only other team with a winning record on the schedule. WVU also lost to a 4-8 team. Unless you are stupid or lying, you would say this kind of season in year 5 of Nehlen, RR, and even Stew, had he made it that long, would be a down year. At best you would say this would have been an average year for Holgorsen. So why does a season that would've been considered average to a down year by every other coach in WVU's last 40 years get looked on so favorably by you if not because it is being juxtaposed with 4 consecutive bad years of WVU football?
I'm happy WVU is moving in the right direction, but we are far from where WVU should be. And if WVU is content with this kind of season being the average to above average kind of year for WVU football rather than a down year, then why did we bother moving on from Holgorsen in the first place?
Can you specifically point to the poster who said we expect 10+ wins a year? I don’t know who you are referring to and I haven’t seen anyone say that. Many of you can twist the numbers around all you like, the fact is we just played the weakest B12 schedule since we joined. And barely got by in every win except BYU and Cincinnati. We didn’t beat 1 team outside of FCS Duquesne that had a winning record. Texas Tech lost yesterday and finished 6-6. Not 1 team with a winning record. Nobody said Neal Brown chose the schedule either. It doesn’t change the facts. It’s not hating or bashing. It’s reality. Let’s hope WVU gets a bowl matchup with a good team with a winning record and beats them. Otherwise, there’s no proof of improvement.
I think the truth is, WVU has been down so long, our fans are desperate for any resemblance of improvement. Nevermind who they played. Just any win we can find. Imagine getting excited for Nehlen beating Rutgers and Temple in the old Big East. That’s exactly the type of reasoning and thoughts we are dealing with. It’s just proof how far the program has regressed.
Couldn't agree more. We have been regressing for a while now. 8-4 is a good improvement but it is definitely an unusually bad schedule, it really is. Some fans are adjusting to it and seem content in slipping, as long as we have a nice guy coaching. It is what it is. I'm just glad we wont have the bad press this offseason, although it did work to fire our players up more than Brown ever had them fired up. Its a bad look though, being picked to finish last, and hopefully we wont deal with that kind of thing again moving forward. If he can keep this team together and find more on D, next season could be another 8 win season. It should be a B12 title, but I dont know if Brown is capable of winning championships. Based on what I've seen, its a long shot even with a great roster. The coaching in the Baylor game was bad and doesnt leave much faith. We were very lucky to escape that mess against a terrible team with their backup QB....
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Agreed, and yet he is still a slightly better head coach than Brown....
It's called "hyperbole".
I'm not defending Brown, I'm just saying that you can't fire a guy for going 8-4 (6-3). Why don't you ask FSU fans what they wanted done with their coach before last year?
While 8-4 is certainly a good record, it’s very misleading. I think the problem many of you are failing to grasp is we aren’t beating ranked teams. And we’ve not beaten a team under Brown that finished the season ranked. And that covers 5 years. While WVU has historically finished in the 6-7 win range on average, they were able to beat some ranked teams and occasionally be ranked themselves. If Brown can start hanging with the top of the conference and occasionally beat ranked teams, then we can all say he’s improved the program. As of yet, the verdict is pending.
See rest of Big 12 as they weren't beating ranked teams either. Texas is pretty much it for Big 12 this year. Brown didn't set the schedule as Big 12 did this. Oklahoma and Okie light were the only 2 conference teams ranked on WVU schedule.
I am sure Texas is pissed because they have to play Okie Light in title game. OU would have been better at getting a playoff spot. Could have gotten revenge for the loss and been in better position. They'll need a lot of losses from teams to move up.
I Never said Brown set the schedule either. And just because others weren’t beating ranked teams, that doesn’t mean anything to me. Fact is, we haven’t been beating ANY ranked teams for 5 years. That’s a problem whether you acknowledge it or not.
He has beaten ranked teams at the time he played them. But those that hate him only see it as end of season rankings. That's two different things.
Stats show
Neal Brown 2-12 against ranked opponents. (zero top 10) Had no returning QB
Holgorsen 5-10 (zero top 10) Had Geno Smith
Bill Stewart 1-1 (only win was against top 10 team OU) Had Pat White
Rich Rodriguez 7-4 (how many of those 7 finished ranked?) Had Rasheed Marshall and Brad Lewis. According to you experts finishing un-ranked means no wins vs ranked opponents. Experts and media disagree. Rod only beat 2 teams in top 10
Don Nehlen 11-14-1 (2 teams in top 10) Had Oliver Luck
How many of the former coaches were against teams finished ranked?
No coach has matched what Don Nehlen and Rod have done. Thus causing expectations to be over blown.
All of those coaches had an experienced returning QB and offense. Brownie didn't. Brownie will be back next year so you might either want to give up cheering for WVU cause it's going to be another year possibly 2.
WVU will use the extra time to hire a men's basketball coach.
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Of course end of the year rankings show the real story. Regular season rankings before the season is complete really means nothing. Why are you making excuses for Neal? And when did I say he wouldn’t be back? You’re all over the place
Not making excuses. Just giving him credit for taking a sloppy team to 8-4. Seems majority here don't like that.
I guess the question should be asked: Why aren't you complimenting Brown for an 8-4 (6-3) season?
I recently complimented him for starting to see the light in terms of running an offense that features a running QB. Also I think he did a good job of cleaning up penalties this season especiallyb pre-snap, and every little thing helps. The running game has developed under him too. He was supposed to be more of an air raid passing guy, but his RB recruiting has been really good, not to mention Chad Scott seems like a good RB coach.
Neal Brown isnt a bad coach. Imo, he's an average coach. He's a 6-7 per year guy, with an 8-9 win season here and there, and a 5 win season here and there, but mostly 6-7. That is Neal and he has not shown any different. If you think WVU should just be an average team, and cant really sustain much more than that, then Neal may be your guy.
Neal Brown beat some bad teams on the schedule this year and got to 8 wins. He doesnt make the schedule, so why hasnt it changed a lot of peoples minds that? Well, because its not just that we just beat bad teams, its that we very barely won a few of those games against bad teams like Baylor and TCU. As good as 8-4 is, and I like 8-4, we were still just 3 to 5 plays from finishing the season 5-7. Not enough to show how much he improved if any.
Don Nehlen = averaged 7 wins per season (21 years at WVU)
*2 seasons of 10+ wins
*7 seasons of 8-9 wins
*7 seasons of 6-7 wins
*5 seasons of 5 wins or less
This got him immortalized. Just saying.
This is not in any way an attempt to downgrade Don Nehlen, but he would’ve been fired elsewhere between 1990-1992. I’m just as thankful as he probably is that he wasn’t. It’s just the nature of the game. Especially nowadays.
I get it but tbh basically Everything about the way it works is different now than it was then, from play calling to recruiting to marketing to everything. Don was a good coach he really put us on the national map. He made wvu into a legit team. Rich Rod took it to another level and started bringing us into the modern football era. Personally, I think wvu can be a top tier program, with the right coach.
There’s no doubt WVU can be a top tier program. Problem is, those who make these decisions don’t believe it. Rodriguez was met with a series of “No” everytime he wanted to grow the program.
Bingo. Colorado beat the 17th ranked team in the country this year. That 17th ranked team happened to finish 5-7. This is the epitome of why season end rankings are much more useful guide than early or mid season rankings.
Exactly! And sadly a lot of fans are in the same mindset. I have heard more excuses as to why WVU cant be a top tier program from its own fans, than I've ever heard any outsiders say about WVU. I've never heard fans from other programs sell themselves short as much as WVU fans. Over the years I've come to see it as a mindset issue. It is simply not true. WVU can be a top tier program. WV people are good people but have a history of getting screwed over and never getting shiny new things so-to-speak. It carries over, imo. Its a mindset that "its never going to work out so why try." Average is good enough. Then to top it off, Rich Rod broke a lot of people. There are people who would rather have Neal Brown than a better coach just because "he's safe". He wont run off into the night and break everyones hearts like Rich Rod did when WVU shut the door in his face of every request he made.
Fan base use to bitch because experts made the claims WVU is in the Big East their schedule is weak. It's how they get considered for BCS.
Media gang now claims P5 is tough and WVU is playing a difficult schedule. New fan base sayings are that WVU play's nobody and beats nobody.
The world has gone bat shit crazy.
Media gang now claims P5 is tough and WVU is playing a difficult schedule. New fan base sayings are that WVU play's nobody and beats nobody.
The world has gone bat shit crazy.
I'm pretty sure he as well as I have explained why this 8-4 season appears much better than it actually is. Just like Holgorsen's 10 win season wasn't because it was his best team, but rather his worst slate of opposition. Just like that 10 win wasn't much better than his 7 win team that had to take on Alabama and 4 ranked Big 12 opponents, this team isn't that much better than last year's team that had to play ISU, KSU, KU, Texas, and a much better TCU last year. Every one of those teams were better than all but OU, OSU, and PSU this year.
He gets compliments for improving, but it is improvement from a pretty low place and 4 consecutive years of it to boot. That's why he deserves tempered praise and WVU should have no less expectations of improvement again next year as compared to this year.
It’s not too hard to grasp. Once Neal starts beating good teams that are ranked, I’ll agree he’s improved. Not expected all the time. However, Nehlen did it. Rodriguez did it. WVU historically has done it. Beating 5-7 and 3-8 teams used to be expected. Not glorified
Agreed. Even just more convincing wins against Baylor, tcu and showing up at all against OU would have gone along way in being more convincing to the well earned doubters.
That was playing 1 less game per year which is currently the gimme games like Duquesne. That is also with 2 undefeated seasons and upsets of big teams. He took over the Cignetti mess and went into Norman against a good Sooners for a win in year 3. That is light years more advanced than anything Brown has done. Stop throwing out only select parts of the data to justify your pre set opinion.
There is a difference when beating or playing competitively with the only 1-2 good teams in the conference while handily beating most of the conference fodder and getting crushed by the 1-2 good teams while only barely sneaking past many of the fodder.
That OU team finished 8-4...........so want to talk about "throwing out select parts of the data"?
a lot of decisions have unintended consequences..Indiana fired the coach..16 players have entered the portal...so far..it's going to be a total rebuild
Coaching changes will always bring roster turnover, but nonetheless, we had at least 20 scholarship players enter portal last year alone.
absolutely did not..you need to check your transfer dates..Mesidor and Porter have been gone for two years
