South Carolina and the Confederate flag...

[rog1187]

does removing the Confederate flag do anything but make people feel good? Does removing do anything to change people's views on another race? It probably should be removed...put in a museum...but it should be the State's decision to put it there IMO.

 

[Mntneer]

I'm amazed it was ever put there to begin with. To many, that flag represents a horrible time in the history of this country. I can't imagine being a black person, knowing the history of most of my ancestors, knowing what that flag represented, and having to see it everywhere you go down south.

 

[rog1187]

I'm amazed it was ever put there to begin with. To many, that flag represents a horrible time in the history of this country. I can't imagine being a black person, knowing the history of most of my ancestors, knowing what that flag represented, and having to see it everywhere you go down south.

I agree with that...but does removing it actually start to change anything...change individual thoughts on other races? Is it just a feel-good thing...will it actually accomplish anything? Maybe if it was the first step towards something else, but just to remove it won't accomplish much I don't think.

 

[WVUCOOPER]

I agree with that...but does removing it actually start to change anything...change individual thoughts on other races? Is it just a feel-good thing...will it actually accomplish anything? Maybe if it was the first step towards something else, but just to remove it won't accomplish much I don't think.

Won't hurt.

 

[rog1187]

Won't hurt.

Certainly...and the media will cheer it...and they will go onto the next story...and nothing will change in SC.

 

[moe]

does removing the Confederate flag do anything but make people feel good? Does removing do anything to change people's views on another race? It probably should be removed...put in a museum...but it should be the State's decision to put it there IMO.

I think it would be a good idea to take it down. Whose decision other than South Carolina's would it be? Didn't know that the Fed (or some court) would or could make them take it down.

 

[rog1187]

I think it would be a good idea to take it down. Whose decision other than South Carolina's would it be? Didn't know that the Fed (or some court) would or could make them take it down.

I don't think anyone but the State can take it down...but I think the question is being asked as if someone else can make them take it down.

 

[Op2]

I think oftentimes symbolic changes are often pointless and do nothing other than make the people promoting change feel good. They do that where I live all the time. But in the case of the Confederate flag I'm for it.

Here's something I didn't know until yesterday. The flag they're talking about, the one with the red background and blue X stripes with white stars on it...that wasn't the national flag of the Confederacy. It was the battle flag of the Army of Northern Virginia, which I guess means it's the flag Lee's army took into war. It didn't begin to fly over the statehouse in South Carolina until 1961 when it went up in defiance over federal pressure to integrate. So people can talk about heritage but the reality is that it doesn't really have much to do with that.

The problem is that it has bee around in the south long enough that while some like it for racist reasons, others like it just because it's a think they do and it becomes a part of their lives, although they never thought about the origins and now if feels like something is being unjustly taken away from them when it's suggested that it go away.

 

[DvlDog4WVU]

does removing the Confederate flag do anything but make people feel good? Does removing do anything to change people's views on another race? It probably should be removed...put in a museum...but it should be the State's decision to put it there IMO.

I certainly consider myself a southerner but I'm not really in favor of having the flag on the statehouse. Cut the racism angle out of it, not one southerner I know feels anything remotely connecting with that. Southerners view the stars and bars as representative of their heritage, honor, and gentrified living. Sure, there are some shit heels out there who connect it with racism, the same dumb hill jacks that do it in WV and elsewhere.

With all of that said, the reality of having it in the statehouse is a defiance against this country and what it stands for. The Confederates were defeated. This symbol of southern heritage also signifies the worst time in our nation's history. A time when brother fought against brother. When a President allowed internal war to be the only remaining outlet to settle differences in our country. I would think neither side would want it displayed. It was the most embarrassing failure in diplomacy of our country's past.

 

[Op2]

I certainly consider myself a southerner but I'm not really in favor of having the flag on the statehouse. Cut the racism angle out of it, not one southerner I know feels anything remotely connecting with that. Southerners view the stars and bars as representative of their heritage, honor, and gentrified living. Sure, there are some shit heels out there who connect it with racism, the same dumb hill jacks that do it in WV and elsewhere.

With all of that said, the reality of having it in the statehouse is a defiance against this country and what it stands for. The Confederates were defeated. This symbol of southern heritage also signifies the worst time in our nation's history. A time when brother fought against brother. When a President allowed internal war to be the only remaining outlet to settle differences in our country. I would think neither side would want it displayed. It was the most embarrassing failure in diplomacy of our country's past.

What do you mean you think neither side would want it to be displayed? Are you talking about the Feds and the Confeds of the 1860s? If so I think the latter would very much like it to be displayed all over the South.

I'm no Civil War scholar and I don't know if Lincoln handled things optimally or not but it's not like everything was hunk dory and then dumb old Lincoln came along and started a big old war. I don't even want to think about how things on this content or even across the world would have turned out had the North not won that war.

 

[DvlDog4WVU]

What do you mean you think neither side would want it to be displayed? Are you talking about the Feds and the Confeds of the 1860s? If so I think the latter would very much like it to be displayed all over the South.

I'm no Civil War scholar and I don't know if Lincoln handled things optimally or not but it's not like everything was hunk dory and then dumb old Lincoln came along and started a big old war. I don't even want to think about how things on this content or even across the world would have turned out had the North not won that war.

It wasn't just Lincoln, but he certainly put in place policies and made decisions which left the South very little option other than to attack. They were boxed in. It's a lot like how the Japanese were starved for Oil and Steel due to us and the British based on their invasion of China. We left them with very little option other than to attack us.

I agree, the north needed to win the war, however, it didn't really need to come to that in my opinion.

 

[RichardPeterJohnson]

does removing the Confederate flag do anything but make people feel good? Does removing do anything to change people's views on another race? It probably should be removed...put in a museum...but it should be the State's decision to put it there IMO.

It's rude. It blatantly insults 30% of the state's population that is African American most of whom have ancestors who were slaves . The flag flying over the capitol was put there in response to federally forced integration.. It was basically a big F U to JFK. It represents all that is wrong with racial relations in this country. It is time to take that flag down. It is callous racism.

 

[DvlDog4WVU]

It's rude. It blatantly insults 30% of the state's population that is African American most of whom have ancestors who were slaves . The flag flying over the capitol was put there in response to federally forced integration.. It was basically a big F U to JFK. It represents all that is wrong with racial relations in this country. It is time to take that flag down. It is callous racism.

And what about all of the people that it bears no meaning in racism to them and only heritage? Just want to do their thinking for them? Typical. Its not as cut and dry as you are making it.

 

[Op2]

And what about all of the people that it bears no meaning in racism to them and only heritage? Just want to do their thinking for them? Typical. Its not as cut and dry as you are making it.

Well, that's the problem. It was put up in the first place not due to heritage but due to racism. But it's been up so long now that some people associate it with heritage even if they don't personally associate it with racism.

That said though, it doesn't seem like too much to ask for the people that see it as heritage to step back and look at the broader picture. They associate it with heritage but they could associate ANYTHING with heritage if they decide to. Pick something else instead. After all, the reason the flag is up in the first place is racism and a lot of racists champion it on that basis. In fact, those people are the historically correct ones. If you associate the flag with heritage then you're associating it with something other than the reason it went up in the first place.

In a separate issue, we all have ancestors and we might want to celebrate them sometimes in some way but at the same time we don't have to approve of everything they did especially since realistically we all have ancestors that did and believed terrible things. We can debate details of policies of the North and South back then but the bottom line is that in the big picture the South was wrong in a tremendous way and I think all this heritage stuff gets in the way of people remembering that.

None of my ancestors came to the US until the Civil War was over so they weren't on either side. They were back in Europe somewhere. I'm grateful for them for existing and procreating so that I could exist but if you told me they did awful things back in Europe I wouldn't want to honor that. Heritage doesn't have to be positive.

 

[DvlDog4WVU]

Well, that's the problem. It was put up in the first place not due to heritage but due to racism. But it's been up so long now that some people associate it with heritage even if they don't personally associate it with racism.

That said though, it doesn't seem like too much to ask for the people that see it as heritage to step back and look at the broader picture. They associate it with heritage but they could associate ANYTHING with heritage if they decide to. Pick something else instead. After all, the reason the flag is up in the first place is racism and a lot of racists champion it on that basis. In fact, those people are the historically correct ones. If you associate the flag with heritage then you're associating it with something other than the reason it went up in the first place.

In a separate issue, we all have ancestors and we might want to celebrate them sometimes in some way but at the same time we don't have to approve of everything they did especially since realistically we all have ancestors that did and believed terrible things. We can debate details of policies of the North and South back then but the bottom line is that in the big picture the South was wrong in a tremendous way and I think all this heritage stuff gets in the way of people remembering that.

None of my ancestors came to the US until the Civil War was over so they weren't on either side. They were back in Europe somewhere. I'm grateful for them for existing and procreating so that I could exist but if you told me they did awful things back in Europe I wouldn't want to honor that. Heritage doesn't have to be positive.

I agree with you. I think it should come down. But, that's only my personal opinion and I don't pretend to believe what I feel or think is what is best for everyone.

The only reason this is even being talked about is because of that whack job who killed people. Most of the people weighing in didn't even realize it was being flown prior to the media talking about it. How all of the sudden should their opinion be considered, especially if they don't live in SC? If it was a non-issue for decades, why is it all of the sudden an issue that needs solved?

 

[RichardPeterJohnson]

I agree with you. I think it should come down. But, that's only my personal opinion and I don't pretend to believe what I feel or think is what is best for everyone.

The only reason this is even being talked about is because of that whack job who killed people. Most of the people weighing in didn't even realize it was being flown prior to the media talking about it. How all of the sudden should their opinion be considered, especially if they don't live in SC? If it was a non-issue for decades, why is it all of the sudden an issue that needs solved?

It hasn't been a "non-issue" for decades. This shooting is the latest reminded that SC tacitly endorses racism. They fly the flag at the state capitol. They've named roads for confederate generals who fought to keep Blacks enslaved. The ancestors of those Blacks drive on those very roads named for these treasonous racists. It is rude. It is inconsiderate. It is racist. It really isn't hard to see the big picture if you'd open your eyes.

 

[BigLickMountee]

does removing the Confederate flag do anything but make people feel good? Does removing do anything to change people's views on another race? It probably should be removed...put in a museum...but it should be the State's decision to put it there IMO.

in the realm of emotions, yes it does other things, especially would make those wanting the flag up not feel good. Besides the feeling of goodness the actuality of promoting a culture of void of what that flag represented occurs.

The long term effects on race by removing the flag would likely take a similar amount of time removing "whites only" on business doors or over a water fountain took to effect race relations.

It's a moral issue impacting a nation relegated to a state solution.

 

[TarHeelEer]

It's rude. It blatantly insults 30% of the state's population that is African American most of whom have ancestors who were slaves . The flag flying over the capitol was put there in response to federally forced integration.. It was basically a big F U to JFK. It represents all that is wrong with racial relations in this country. It is time to take that flag down. It is callous racism.

I agree.

 

[WVPATX]

It hasn't been a "non-issue" for decades. This shooting is the latest reminded that SC tacitly endorses racism. They fly the flag at the state capitol. They've named roads for confederate generals who fought to keep Blacks enslaved. The ancestors of those Blacks drive on those very roads named for these treasonous racists. It is rude. It is inconsiderate. It is racist. It really isn't hard to see the big picture if you'd open your eyes.

SC tacitly endorses racism? This is the first state in the south to elect a black senator. This is a state that has an Indian American governor. What a gross over generalization.

 

[moe]

SC tacitly endorses racism? This is the first state in the south to elect a black senator. This is a state that has an Indian American governor. What a gross over generalization.[/QUOTE] You make a living doing this very thing.

 

[Op2]

SC tacitly endorses racism? This is the first state in the south to elect a black senator. This is a state that has an Indian American governor. What a gross over generalization.

The flag in SC went up in 1961 for explicitly racist reasons and it has flown ever since

 

[DvlDog4WVU]

It hasn't been a "non-issue" for decades. This shooting is the latest reminded that SC tacitly endorses racism. They fly the flag at the state capitol. They've named roads for confederate generals who fought to keep Blacks enslaved. The ancestors of those Blacks drive on those very roads named for these treasonous racists. It is rude. It is inconsiderate. It is racist. It really isn't hard to see the big picture if you'd open your eyes.

And this specific thing is an issue you had zero idea about until you were told it should be an issue. They are hardly the only state to name roads after confederate generals. Pretty sure I vividly remember playing football against Stonewall Jackson in WV. You continue to not disappoint though. Carry on with your faux outrage on an issue that will be forgotten and not talked about in a week as well as you forgetting your faux outrage over it.

Keep me posted.

 

[rog1187]

The flag in SC went up in 1961 for explicitly racist reasons and it has flown ever since

You can thank Democrat Gov. Fritz Hollings for this happening in the first place back in 1961

 

[WVPATX]

You can thank Democrat Gov. Fritz Hollings for this happening in the first place back in 1961

Don't bother posting facts. Libs are driven by emotion.

 

[bornaneer]

What about the toothless guy I saw a while back driving a pickup truck, gun rack and all, sporting a big rebel decal AND also a VOTE OBAMA sticker.... True story.

 

[Op2]

You can thank Democrat Gov. Fritz Hollings for this happening in the first place back in 1961

LOL...you think the political party of various SC officials at that time has anything to do with anything? Really? It doesn't.

 

[bornaneer]

LOL...you think the political party of various SC officials at that time has anything to do with anything? Really? It doesn't.

So you are saying it was done over the objections of Democrat Gov. Fritz Hollings? I'm sure you are smart enough to know that a sitting Gov. usually gets what they want. I love how some people try to twist history.

 

[RichardPeterJohnson]

So you are saying it was done over the objections of Democrat Gov. Fritz Hollings? I'm sure you are smart enough to know that a sitting Gov. usually gets what they want. I love how some people try to twist history.

Twist history? really? Until the Civil Rights Act was passed in 1964, the Democratic Party dominated the South. After it passed, LBJ said "we've lost the South forever". And he was correct. The South is now dominated by the GOP. Most of those who opposed civil rights switched parties. And those who didn't, like Hollings and Byrd, changed their positions on race. And here we are today. The GOP of SC perpetuating racism by continuing to fly that flag. But I am happy to see that many in the GOP outside of SC, like Corker, Jeb, Romney and others are calling on the most racist state in the US to do the right thing.

 

[Mntneer]

Twist history? really? Until the Civil Rights Act was passed in 1964, the Democratic Party dominated the South. After it passed, LBJ said "we've lost the South forever". And he was correct. The South is now dominated by the GOP. Most of those who opposed civil rights switched parties. And those who didn't, like Hollings and Byrd, changed their positions on race. And here we are today. The GOP of SC perpetuating racism by continuing to fly that flag. But I am happy to see that many in the GOP outside of SC, like Corker, Jeb, Romney and others are calling on the most racist state in the US to do the right thing.

Talk about twisting history.

 

[WVPATX]

Twist history? really? Until the Civil Rights Act was passed in 1964, the Democratic Party dominated the South. After it passed, LBJ said "we've lost the South forever". And he was correct. The South is now dominated by the GOP. Most of those who opposed civil rights switched parties. And those who didn't, like Hollings and Byrd, changed their positions on race. And here we are today. The GOP of SC perpetuating racism by continuing to fly that flag. But I am happy to see that many in the GOP outside of SC, like Corker, Jeb, Romney and others are calling on the most racist state in the US to do the right thing.

If the flag is so overtly racists, why would two Dem leaders do this?:

 

[RichardPeterJohnson]

If the flag is so overtly racists, why would two Dem leaders do this?:

That flag was never endorsed by or a part of the Clinton-Gore campaign. Any yahoo, such as yourself, could make such a flag.

 

[Op2]

So you are saying it was done over the objections of Democrat Gov. Fritz Hollings? I'm sure you are smart enough to know that a sitting Gov. usually gets what they want. I love how some people try to twist history.

I'm saying I neither know nor care what party the politicians in SC belonged to at that time and I suspect many other people don't know or care as well.

But if you want to turn it all into politics, the Republicans were on the rights side of the issue and the Democrats were on the wrong side in the Civil War. That's for sure. So what? The Democratic South lost the war and remained pissed off about it for a century so they stayed Democratic and they stayed racist and that was the situation when the flag went up in SC for the first time in 1961.

That is somehow supposed to be a points scorer for the Republicans in 2015? First of all, no, because it's so long ago and because of the big shift from the Democrats to the Republicans in the South in the 1960s but secondly, even if it did score points for the Republicans somehow I don't really care. I've been a registered Independent my whole life and I always will be. I have whatever opinions I have on issues and if the Democrat Party agrees with me on an issue then I want the Democrats to win on that issue but it's because of the issue not because I'm so gung ho about the Democrats per se. The last thing I ever want to do is become a hyper-partisan where I want one certain party to win no matter what.

 

[Op2]

If the flag is so overtly racists, why would two Dem leaders do this?:

Because the earth was cooler back then.

 

[WVPATX]

That flag was never endorsed by or a part of the Clinton-Gore campaign. Any yahoo, such as yourself, could make such a flag.

Nice try

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Popular-199...453?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item463befa39d

Yet another example:


"But look who does have something to answer for: the decidedly Democratic Bill Clinton, who as governor of Arkansas went a step further, signing a state flag bill specifying “a blue star above the word ‘ARKANSAS’ to commemorate the Confederate States of America”.

 

[RichardPeterJohnson]

Nice try

"But look who does have something to answer for: the decidedly Democratic Bill Clinton, who as governor of Arkansas went a step further, signing a state flag bill specifying “a blue star above the word ‘ARKANSAS’ to commemorate the Confederate States of America”.

He shouldn't have done that if true. But the Arkansas state flag hardly represents the confederacy and racism the way the stars and bars do.

 

[mneilmont]

As an imported resident of the state of about 25 years, I would have to question the accuracy of some statements. "The flag was originally put up to show racism." Really? Some also thought a States Right thing was involved. Remember, residents of other states also had slaves. Remember, not all residents of the South had slaves. There was some heritage involved when the North was going to dictate how the South was to live - not just slave owners. Old argument that still exists. Flag represents different families.

I thought there were negotiations that removed Battle Flag from atop the capitol. It could still be flown on the grounds. Compromise that was agreed to and no further demands were to be made regarding the attempt to totally remove the flag from everywhere save the museum.

In 25 years, I have yet to hear/see anyone who states that the only statement of the flag is slavery. Many years have passed since slavery was abolished. Many generations have come and gone.

What does the flag mean? I have no idea what each camp is thinking, but my personal belief is that the vast majority thinks it is States Rights and heritage. I do not believe that schools teach that it is to perpetuate slavery.

 

[bornaneer]

Twist history? really? Until the Civil Rights Act was passed in 1964, the Democratic Party dominated the South. After it passed, LBJ said "we've lost the South forever". And he was correct. The South is now dominated by the GOP. Most of those who opposed civil rights switched parties. And those who didn't, like Hollings and Byrd, changed their positions on race. And here we are today. The GOP of SC perpetuating racism by continuing to fly that flag. But I am happy to see that many in the GOP outside of SC, like Corker, Jeb, Romney and others are calling on the most racist state in the US to do the right thing.

You cannot rewrite history and change the facts. Al Gore Sr, Sam Ervin,George Wallace,Bobby Bryd, J. William Fulbright,John Sparkman, and George Smathers are JUST a few well known and well documented Democrat racists. Thank God for ridding many racists Democrats out of the South and replacing them with Republicans who fought to eradicate racism. How do you like living among all those racist rednecks down in Tennessee. Do you tell them to shop elsewhere when they need new glasses?

 

[WVPATX]

He shouldn't have done that if true. But the Arkansas state flag hardly represents the confederacy and racism the way the stars and bars do.

He signed the bill into law to celebrate the Confederacy. He ran in 1992 using a confederate symbol. If the flag is so racist, why did he do it? The fact is that for many, the flag represents something far different from racism. The flag had nothing to do with Roof. Why it is even being discussed is pure politics.

 

[RichardPeterJohnson]

As an imported resident of the state of about 25 years, I would have to question the accuracy of some statements. "The flag was originally put up to show racism." Really? Some also thought a States Right thing was involved. Remember, residents of other states also had slaves. Remember, not all residents of the South had slaves. There was some heritage involved when the North was going to dictate how the South was to live - not just slave owners. Old argument that still exists. Flag represents different families.

I thought there were negotiations that removed Battle Flag from atop the capitol. It could still be flown on the grounds. Compromise that was agreed to and no further demands were to be made regarding the attempt to totally remove the flag from everywhere save the museum.

In 25 years, I have yet to hear/see anyone who states that the only statement of the flag is slavery. Many years have passed since slavery was abolished. Many generations have come and gone.

What does the flag mean? I have no idea what each camp is thinking, but my personal belief is that the vast majority thinks it is States Rights and heritage. I do not believe that schools teach that it is to perpetuate slavery.

Spoken like the racist that you are. It is always hilarious to hear southerners say the civil war wasn't about slavery, it was about states' rights. That would be like a Nazi saying the final solution wasn't about exterminating Jews, it was about nation's rights.

 

[Op2]

As an imported resident of the state of about 25 years, I would have to question the accuracy of some statements. "The flag was originally put up to show racism." Really? Some also thought a States Right thing was involved. Remember, residents of other states also had slaves. Remember, not all residents of the South had slaves. There was some heritage involved when the North was going to dictate how the South was to live - not just slave owners. Old argument that still exists. Flag represents different families.

I thought there were negotiations that removed Battle Flag from atop the capitol. It could still be flown on the grounds. Compromise that was agreed to and no further demands were to be made regarding the attempt to totally remove the flag from everywhere save the museum.

In 25 years, I have yet to hear/see anyone who states that the only statement of the flag is slavery. Many years have passed since slavery was abolished. Many generations have come and gone.

What does the flag mean? I have no idea what each camp is thinking, but my personal belief is that the vast majority thinks it is States Rights and heritage. I do not believe that schools teach that it is to perpetuate slavery.

The Battle Flag, which mean think is the actual flag of the Confederacy, did not fly in SC until 1961. Yes, it was over states rights, namely the state of SC wanted the right to enforce segregation. In response to the Federal Gov't trying to undo segregation the state of SC put up a flag that the Confederacy used during battle against the North in the Civil War.

ETA: Do you see the verbal gymnastics involved with all this. We get "It's not slavery, it's states rights." And what does the state want the right to do? Be officially racist. We're not talking about the state wanting the one to administer health care instead of leaving it to the Feds or something. When the people say "It's state rights" what they mean is "It's racism but I can't call it that without losing political ground, so I'll call it states rights."