My right-wing friends, why no outrage over this teacher?

[atlkvb]

Separation of Church and State is very much so a tenant of our Constitution.

Morality encompasses a sense of ones relationship to their spiritual consciousness, but it also encompasses ones relationship to others. Teaching America should be independent from teaching ANY religious doctorine.

Christian schools are not horrible institutions, imo. But they fail to help create truly American citizens. Other forms of private schools (that do not adhere to regilous doctorine) are usually very efficient. When a school has admission abilities, better funding, technology and faculty they will surely be more efficient on the average. However, I feel they can lack a social diversity, due to financial restraints. Vouchers might seek to remedy that deficiency. But let's be honest....the voucher system will, in time, create many more Christian based schools (exactly what you would advocate for), there will be non-religious private schools as well, but admission requirements would become more strenuous as the number of applications increase. Charter schools would provide a option, but would be subject to funding motivations as well, which would create a desire to select a charter that can be efficient (this would be done almost always along socioeconomic lines). And this would leave even more underfunded schools for the students whose parents choose not to allow their child's education to be dilluted by religious doctrine, and parents who cannot afford to live within the areas that efficient Charter schools cover or who do not have the financial ability to provide tuition, transportation, or both.

As for the efficiency of Public schools? Eliminate tenure, pay more, get more teachers to lower class size, help parents be more involved, and take academics as seriously as we do athletics.....and watch the efficiency increase.

Selectivity and choice boomer are important to freely functioning people. You chose how to educate your kids. You chose where to live. You chose what to eat.You choose what to wear. You have freedoms to make those choices for yourself and your Family.

We have choice as a fundamental right, even the right to chose not to believe.

My biggest problem with Public education is it does not provide Freedom of choice, there is no competition. (read the Public school Teacher's article I posted earlier in this thread)

Your assumptions about the dangers of Private education, school choice vouchers, and the rest of your concerns voiced about Private education remove the one variable that remains constant and in fact is an enhancement to our Liberty.

Our diversity, and Freedom of choice because of it.

I am not concerned about varying levels of quality education among the various choices Parents given competition and Freedom will make because my only prerequisite is that they be given that choice to chose that level of excellence in their educational selections that fit them.

I refuse to believe the Public education model is our only answer because our evidence is that it's "one size fits all" approach does not work. Can not work!

Why?

Because it is not geared to individual needs as much as it is focused on collectivism for the masses to normalize all so individuality is not emphasized.

Private and charter schools are set up on an entirely different paradigm, where individual needs are both addressed and serviced. The good schools fulfilling their missions will grow and multiply, the poor ones will close due to lack of support. That dynamic does not happen in the Public school Government run model.

This is the essence of excellent education, and diversity among that mission is not something we should fear but encourage.

That (diversity) is the advantage we have as a nation living in Freedom and Liberty. Including the freedom to educate our kids Religiously, Spiritually, even humanistically if that is the desire of the Parents.

The point is to place Parents and educators into that primary role of deciding that level of educational emphasis, and not to set up a huge inefficient bureaucracy as a substitute that stunts both moral instruction, individuality, and excellence through pursuit of both.

 

[Boomboom521]

Selectivity and choice boomer are important to freely functioning people. You chose how to educate your kids. You chose where to live. You chose what to eat.You choose what to wear. You have freedoms to make those choices for yourself and your Family.

We have choice as a fundamental right, even the right to chose not to believe.

My biggest problem with Public education is it does not provide Freedom of choice, there is no competition. (read the Public school Teacher's article I posted earlier in this thread)

Your assumptions about the dangers of Private education, school choice vouchers, and the rest of your concerns voiced about Private education remove the one variable that remains constant and in fact is an enhancement to our Liberty.

Our diversity, and Freedom of choice because of it.

I am not concerned about varying levels of quality education among the various choices Parents given competition and Freedom will make because my only prerequisite is that they be given that choice to chose that level of excellence in their educational selections that fit them.

I refuse to believe the Public education model is our only answer because our evidence is that it's "one size fits all" approach does not work. Can not work!

Why?

Because it is not geared to individual needs as much as it is focused on collectivism for the masses to normalize all so individuality is not emphasized.

Private and charter schools are set up on an entirely different paradigm, where individual needs are both addressed and serviced. The good schools fulfilling their missions will grow and multiply, the poor ones will close due to lack of support. That dynamic does not happen in the Public school Government run model.

This is the essence of excellent education, and diversity among that mission is not something we should fear but encourage.

That (diversity) is the advantage we have as a nation living in Freedom and Liberty. Including the freedom to educate our kids Religiously, Spiritually, even humanistically if that is the desire of the Parents.

The point is to place Parents and educators into that primary role of deciding that level of educational emphasis, and not to set up a huge inefficient bureaucracy as a substitute that stunts both moral instruction, individuality, and excellence through individual pursuit of both.

And your ideas about education are uninformed and ignorant. Curriculum and instruction focuses on tailoring lesson plans to individual learning styles. Educators are taught to identify not only learning styles, but to also discover areas in which students excel. Through other strategies as well, educators can create a very complex and diverse approach to basic subjects that aim to get the best out of each student.

You claim that liberals are idealistically reaching for an American unattainable utopia? But that's exactly what you are advocating for in education. Parents across the US having a choice between a Christian, private non-religious, Jewish, magnet and charter school that provides transportation for their children? Logistically, it's not viable.

But I imagine, that doesn't concern you. All you are really after is for all American children to be taught Christian ideological morality. It is your answer for fixing the woes of our nation (youvsay it without directly saying it - as you hide behind the thin mask of a lover of liberty). It's what, imo, most that advocate for vouchers want in the end. Strict admissions weeding out students that could potentially become discipline problems, curriculum that attempts to bring all future citizens under the same comforting moral code and vision, and a privatization of the education process that mythically makes everything better.

Education is not a product.

 

[atlkvb]

And your ideas about education are uninformed and ignorant. Curriculum and instruction focuses on tailoring lesson plans to individual learning styles

OK, boomer, I'm just a Parent you're a Teacher...so show me the Public education models that operate this way?

Demonstrate my ignorance.

Again, if you are arguing Public education is superior to Private education (I'm arguing it is not and lack of flexibility in curriculum is one reason why) then show me where superior Public school curriculum is geared to fit individual needs in preference over collective results and excels over Private schools serving individual rather than collective needs?

Post the curriculum and the results vs Private schools.

 

[atlkvb]

And your ideas about education are uninformed and ignorant. Curriculum and instruction focuses on tailoring lesson plans to individual learning styles. Educators are taught to identify not only learning styles, but to also discover areas in which students excel. Through other strategies as well, educators can create a very complex and diverse approach to basic subjects that aim to get the best out of each student.

You claim that liberals are idealistically reaching for an American unattainable utopia? But that's exactly what you are advocating for in education. Parents across the US having a choice between a Christian, private non-religious, Jewish, magnet and charter school that provides transportation for their children? Logistically, it's not viable.

But I imagine, that doesn't concern you. All you are really after is for all American children to be taught Christian ideological morality. It is your answer for fixing the woes of our nation (youvsay it without directly saying it - as you hide behind the thin mask of a lover of liberty). It's what, imo, most that advocate for vouchers want in the end. Strict admissions weeding out students that could potentially become discipline problems, curriculum that attempts to bring all future citizens under the same comforting moral code and vision, and a privatization of the education process that mythically makes everything better.

Education is not a product.

I'm for competition boom. Christian based education can compete along with others.

Excellence is what I want in education which is what you get with Private schools religious or otherwise.

Mediocrity is the standard for most Public schools, with a few rare exceptions for educational excellence.

 

[atlkvb]

Final thoughts....

Just to tie off some loose ends still dangling in this thread (appreciate the respectful debate with minimal name calling...we're making progress)

Education is not a product?

It's a commodity, with value that can be purshased at a price. Give consumers choice making that selection valuing that commodity subjected to the same market forces governing any commodity...chiefly competitve aleternatives.

Religious instruction limits diversity?

Quite the contrary. Theories of evolution are taught along side creation science. The Religious philosophies of the Christian founders are explained alongisde the non religious pragmatists.

Our system of justice based on a Biblical standard of Truth is explained along with situational humanistic relativism so students can compare and contrast the differences.

Objective morality based on Godly principles derived from standards found in the Bible are contrasted with devotion to the State through secularism and devotion to Socialist pragmatism.

Objective morality is presented in contrast to subjective relativism so students can analyze both to recognize the differences and evaluate the correctness or erors between each.

Scientific discovery, philosophy, history, literature are all compared and contrasted with non religious inspired dogma so students can analyze the differences and compare the advantages against the disadvantages of each and insights of each.

The supremacy of the individual over the State and allegiance only to God is contrasted with the obligations of devotion only to citizenship as a member of the supreme State with no God having authority over it.

All of these scenarios are regularly found in Religious Private school instruction where in a Public school setting the Religious aspects are systematically excluded by and large by definition.

Issues of morality, fidelity to Justice based on Biblical standards, creationism and our unique purposes as part of it, and respect for one's fellow man based on Biblical instruction of Man's Godly responsibility to live honorably and honestly under a specific moral order are absent in Public school instruction.

Which in my opinion leaves those students not only lacking a well rounded ability to think diversely, but also morally which is the glue needed to hold a civil self governng society cohesive and respectful of concepts like Justice and equality under the very Laws that ensure it for all free people endowed by their Creator.

Education of Government school children without these fundamental precepts does them and our nation a disservice.

 

[Boomboom521]

Final thoughts....

Just to tie off some loose ends still dangling in this thread (appreciate the respectful debate with minimal name calling...we're making progress)

Education is not a product?

It's a commodity, with value that can be purshased at a price. Give consumers choice making that selection valuing that commodity subjected to the same market forces governing any commodity...chiefly competitve aleternatives.

Religious instruction limits diversity?

Quite the contrary. Theories of evolution are taught along side creation science. The Religious philosophies of the Christian founders are explained alongisde the non religious pragmatists.

Our system of justice based on a Biblical standard of Truth is explained along with situational humanistic relativism so students can compare and contrast the differences.

Objective morality based on Godly principles derived from standards found in the Bible are contrasted with devotion to the State through secularism and devotion to Socialist pragmatism.

Objective morality is presented in contrast to subjective relativism so students can analyze both to recognize the differences and evaluate the correctness or erors between each.

Scientific discovery, philosophy, history, literature are all compared and contrasted with non religious inspired dogma so students can analyze the differences and compare the advantages against the disadvantages of each and insights of each.

The supremacy of the individual over the State and allegiance only to God is contrasted with the obligations of devotion only to citizenship as a member of the supreme State with no God having authority over it.

All of these scenarios are regularly found in Religious Private school instruction where in a Public school setting the Religious aspects are systematically excluded by and large by definition.

Issues of morality, fidelity to Justice based on Biblical standards, creationism and our unique purposes as part of it, and respect for one's fellow man based on Biblical instruction of Man's Godly responsibility to live honorably and honestly under a specific moral order are absent in Public school instruction.

Which in my opinion leaves those students not only lacking a well rounded ability to think diversely, but also morally which is the glue needed to hold a civil self governng society cohesive and respectful of concepts like Justice and equality under the very Laws that ensure it for all free people endowed by their Creator.

Education of Government school children without these fundamental precepts does them and our nation a disservice.

It must be convenient for you to now suddenly lump secularism with liberalism and democratic politics together? Now your enemies are all together in opposition to what you see as American biblical justice and liberty.

Your judgement and vision is seriously tainted by your anger for all things that go against your beliefs. Higher education is a highly valuable commodity. EDUCATION (which is formed in many avenues - k-12 school education for our discussion) is most certainly NOT a commodity. It is aid in development of well functioning adults and citizens. It's absolutely a must, there is no choice to the matter. If it's not teachers and parents educating a child, it will be television, life experiences and other children. So public education is provided so that education can ensure our democracy.

You want competition? Sure, that's great. I have no problem with Jewish, Christian, or aislamic schools being created on communities that want them, and parents using their hard earned money to support them through paying tuition. (I'd also be ok with a tax break given to those parents so that they do not pay double. But vouchers will create a system that drains funds from Piblic schools while giving a rise to religious based schools. This is deterimental to education in general.

Science seeks to understand the world around us. Scientists are currently working on a possible test that can prove the parallel universe theory. How would those quests be seen by the religious figures in charge of curriculum? Historical evidence is uncovered yearly now that questions long held historical contexts that could call to question the historical validity of the Bible. How does that quest get identified by those in charge of religious driven curriculum? Medical science has opportunities to potentially alleviate horrors like blindness, dementia, cancer, etc...., but is being slowed and even stopped due to religious morality. By the way, this was also the case in the 16th century, when Franklin and many other scientists were forced to exhume freshly buried bodies and explore aspects of anatomy illegally.

The super conducting super collider, attempts to understand paranormal energy, unlocking the unused power of the human mind, telepathy, there are many scientific endeavors that are dismissed by religious doctorine (although some positions, such as the existence of extraterrestrial life, has been reversed by Christian authority as of late). However, the resistance that religion has shown through time is unmistakable. It is not something we need in education. A persons spiritual quest is their own, and should be conducted over time (a lifetime actually) through the help and support of loved ones and those thoroughly versed in the doctorines.

Thus a separation of the spiritual education of a man/woman and the development of a man/woman as aided by education of science, math, art and literature is required to allow a liberty of learning to occur. Otherwise one dominates the other.

 

[atlkvb]

It must be convenient for you to now suddenly lump secularism with liberalism and democratic politics together? Now your enemies are all together in opposition to what you see as American biblical justice and liberty.

Your judgement and vision is seriously tainted by your anger for all things that go against your beliefs. Higher education is a highly valuable commodity. EDUCATION (which is formed in many avenues - k-12 school education for our discussion) is most certainly NOT a commodity. It is aid in development of well functioning adults and citizens. It's absolutely a must, there is no choice to the matter. If it's not teachers and parents educating a child, it will be television, life experiences and other children. So public education is provided so that education can ensure our democracy.

You want competition? Sure, that's great. I have no problem with Jewish, Christian, or aislamic schools being created on communities that want them, and parents using their hard earned money to support them through paying tuition. (I'd also be ok with a tax break given to those parents so that they do not pay double. But vouchers will create a system that drains funds from Piblic schools while giving a rise to religious based schools. This is deterimental to education in general.

Science seeks to understand the world around us. Scientists are currently working on a possible test that can prove the parallel universe theory. How would those quests be seen by the religious figures in charge of curriculum? Historical evidence is uncovered yearly now that questions long held historical contexts that could call to question the historical validity of the Bible. How does that quest get identified by those in charge of religious driven curriculum? Medical science has opportunities to potentially alleviate horrors like blindness, dementia, cancer, etc...., but is being slowed and even stopped due to religious morality. By the way, this was also the case in the 16th century, when Franklin and many other scientists were forced to exhume freshly buried bodies and explore aspects of anatomy illegally.

The super conducting super collider, attempts to understand paranormal energy, unlocking the unused power of the human mind, telepathy, there are many scientific endeavors that are dismissed by religious doctorine (although some positions, such as the existence of extraterrestrial life, has been reversed by Christian authority as of late). However, the resistance that religion has shown through time is unmistakable. It is not something we need in education. A persons spiritual quest is their own, and should be conducted over time (a lifetime actually) through the help and support of loved ones and those thoroughly versed in the doctorines.

Thus a separation of the spiritual education of a man/woman and the development of a man/woman as aided by education of science, math, art and literature is required to allow a liberty of learning to occur. Otherwise one dominates the other.

I love you boomer my Man, I truly do because I admire the diversity of thoughts you convey.

Nothing in what you suggested here as scientific discovery obviates or eliminates further comparison to Religious beleifs my friend. My faith would be valuless boomer if it could not withstand scrutiny under evaluations among all of the marvelous inquiry you outlined here.

I encourage and support that inquiry. You keep insisting in this thread that I only want Christianty taught? No my friend. I believe Christianty should be subjected to the same scrutiny all Scientific rigor undergoes. Testing that which can be proven as fact.

As I've said to you in this thread, a well rounded education includes all perspectives, considers all variables, compares all philosophies, and evaluates all claims. Public education defers to issues of morality and creation because of its fidelity to secularism. Secularism is fine as a tool, but it is not an answer to Truth.

Education most certainly is a commodity because it is not offered as stand alone static option. As you correctly point out it comes in many forms and has many variables. Much like a stock that adds value as is grows, education is an investment in learning and what gets added as value to the investment is discovery, reserach, learning, and improvement. It varies in both quality and quantity which is the essence of a commodity.

Competiton boomer my Man is the saving grace for Public education. Government monopoly control over it keeps great teachers such as yourself hamstrung from bringing your full talent to impress young seekers of Truth. You can't be effective unless your talent is supported to give those kids all of their options, not just the ones the Government allows.

Morality and understanding our obligations about why we need it and where it comes from helps kids learn what ultimately is true, and what ultimaltey is not true.

 

[Boomboom521]

I love you boomer my Man, I truly do because I admire the diversity of thoughts you convey.

Nothing in what you suggested here as scientific discovery obviates or eliminates further comparison to Religious beleifs my friend. My faith would be valuless boomer if it could not withstand scrutiny under evaluations among all of the marvelous inquiry you outlined here.

I encourage and support that inquiry. You keep insisting in this thread that I only want Christianty taught? No my friend. I believe Christianty should be subjected to the same scrutiny all Scientific rigor undergoes. Testing that which can be proven as fact.

As I've said to you in this thread, a well rounded education includes all perspectives, considers all variables, compares all philosophies, and evaluates all claims. Public education defers to issues of morality and creation because of its fidelity to secularism. Secularism is fine as a tool, but it is not an answer to Truth.

Education most certainly is a commodity because it is not offered as stand alone static option. As you correctly point out it comes in many forms and has many variables. Much like a stock that adds value as is grows, education is an investment in learning and what gets added as value to the investment is discovery, reserach, learning, and improvement. It varies in both quality and quantity which is the essence of a commodity.

Competiton boomer my Man is the saving grace for Public education. Government monopoly control over it keeps great teachers such as yourself hamstrung from bringing your full talent to impress young seekers of Truth. You can't be effective unless your talent is supported to give those kids all of their options, not just the ones the Government allows.

Morality and understanding our obligations about why we need it and where it comes from helps kids learn what ultimately is true, and what ultimaltey is not true.

The lines between citizenship and spirituality, between professionalism and morality, between justice and righteousness are blurred in your mind. Truth, to you, is centered around ones spirituality, but that's not the case for every American (just as it wasn't the case for Thomas Payne). To seek a truth in life is completely independent of the education that I speak of. Critical thinking allows my students the ability to seek out truth OUTSIDE the classroom. I do not discourage religious doctorine. I do however discuss truths of history, psychology, sociology, and civics. I challenge my students to understand complex subjects such as race, gender, cultural identity, and the concept of self through an evaluation of many perspectives and ideological lenses.....a common one being Christianity. I do not relay anything but historical facts....,if it is opinion I bring up, then I always make sure to counter that opinion with others and allow for open discussion and debate. It is someone else's job to discuss scripture or spiritual concepts in order to help a child understand the greater consciousness we all develop over time. Their conscience, as far as I'm concerned, has nothing to do with a moral code, and has everything to do with what American citizenship requires, protects, and allows. Justice is a concept we discuss, but righteousness is not my realm.

Faith is not subject to scrutiny, it either is or isn't. There is no manner to truly scrutinize your faith. I could discuss examples of how the Biblical story of Jesus mimics stories that were written long before the Bible, but your faith would hold a fierce adherence to the standards of history put forth but the Bible itself. I could discuss how no first hand account of Jesus exists outside of the Bible written at the time of Jesus, but again your faith would overwhealm that historical scrutiny with examples from the one historical account that trumps (no pun intended) all others. I could discuss concepts of energy creation (such as is attempted in the super conductive super collider), but all concepts of energy, to you, are simply products of the grand creator (who existence and desire for our lives is outlined in the Bible).

Faith is not subject to scrutiny, it is only tested and either found real or false. Sciences, math, history, literature and art, in my classroom, are used as a means to challenge students to learn the ability to critically think, scrutinize the world around them, understand our nation's systems of laws and justice, and develop skills to narrow their professional focus and succeed.

Teach your faith, I'd never try to stop that.....unless you're trying to bring it into the classroom.

 

[atlkvb]

The lines between citizenship and spirituality, between professionalism and morality, between justice and righteousness are blurred in your mind. Truth, to you, is centered around ones spirituality, but that's not the case for every American (just as it wasn't the case for Thomas Payne). To seek a truth in life is completely independent of the education that I speak of. Critical thinking allows my students the ability to seek out truth OUTSIDE the classroom. I do not discourage religious doctorine. I do however discuss truths of history, psychology, sociology, and civics. I challenge my students to understand complex subjects such as race, gender, cultural identity, and the concept of self through an evaluation of many perspectives and ideological lenses.....a common one being Christianity. I do not relay anything but historical facts....,if it is opinion I bring up, then I always make sure to counter that opinion with others and allow for open discussion and debate. It is someone else's job to discuss scripture or spiritual concepts in order to help a child understand the greater consciousness we all develop over time. Their conscience, as far as I'm concerned, has nothing to do with a moral code, and has everything to do with what American citizenship requires, protects, and allows. Justice is a concept we discuss, but righteousness is not my realm.

Faith is not subject to scrutiny, it either is or isn't. There is no manner to truly scrutinize your faith. I could discuss examples of how the Biblical story of Jesus mimics stories that were written long before the Bible, but your faith would hold a fierce adherence to the standards of history put forth but the Bible itself. I could discuss how no first hand account of Jesus exists outside of the Bible written at the time of Jesus, but again your faith would overwhealm that historical scrutiny with examples from the one historical account that trumps (no pun intended) all others. I could discuss concepts of energy creation (such as is attempted in the super conductive super collider), but all concepts of energy, to me, are simply products of the grand creator (who existence and desire for our lives is outlined in the Bible).

Faith is not subject to scrutiny, it is only tested and either found real or false. Sciences, math, history, literature and art, in my classroom, are used as a means to challenge students to learn the ability to critically think, scrutinize the world around them, understand our nation's systems of laws and justice, and develop skills to narrow their professional focus and succeed.

Teach your faith, I'd never try to stop that.....unless you're trying to bring it into the classroom.

Boomer my friend, honest pursuit of what you so eloquently outline here has to include inquiry into Spirituality.

You can't ask those kids to set their questions about Life, ethics, morality, justice, and honesty aside for "outside the classroom" thought or later consideration my Man!

Your classroom isn't sterile from Life boomer. Your amazing classroom is the window on it! Those kids are asking you questions about Life itself. Where do we come from? Why am I here? Is that Black kid sitting across from me equal to me as a human being? Why? What do you tell them, go outside and find out?

Of course not!

What is right? Why? What is wrong? Why? Are we created? How? Are we just a mere "accident of nature"? How? Great questions, amazing questions, important questions boomer!

These are fundamental questions kids and adults ask boomer. Scientific discovery doesn't bury Faith, it animates it. The study of Religious philosophy doesn't limit thought, it expands it.

Look at how the Founders struggled with concepts of Justice, what were "rights" and where did our morality emanate? They didn't set up a Government absent of those thoughts and principles boomer, they formed a union dependent on them.

As a Teacher, you owe it to your kids to investigate those concepts, including their Religious and Spiritual foundations.

When the founders were perplexed, struggling over how to organizationally draw that line between a State sponsored Theocracy and a Freedom based self Governing Republic that respected the need for Religious tolerance along with recognition of a Supreme Creator from which our rights came who was in fact above even the State they were trying to organize without Religious conventions....know what they did boom?

They secluded themselves and went off to Pray for Spiritual guidance.

The answer to their Prayers was the greatest document ever written by Man since the Bible was Spiritually inspired for them to write it.

Our Constitution my friend. If you want your kids to really understand how special that document was balancing those very important interests (being Free to Worship and Free to dissent from Worship yet respecting Justice & morality for all) teach them all of it boomer including the Praying Spiritual moral parts.

Private schools do.

 

[Boomboom521]

Boomer my friend, honest pursuit of what you so eloquently outline here has to include inquiry into Spirituality.

You can't ask those kids to set their questions about Life, ethics, morality, justice, and honesty aside for "outside the classroom" thought or later consideration my Man!

Your classroom isn't sterile from Life boomer. Your amazing classroom is the window on it! Those kids are asking you questions about Life itself. Where do we come from? Why am I here? Is that Black kid sitting across from me equal to me as a human being? Why? What do you tell them, go outside and find out?

Of course not!

What is right? Why? What is wrong? Why? Are we created? How? Are we just a mere "accident of nature"? How? Great questions, amazing questions, important questions boomer!

These are fundamental questions kids and adults ask boomer. Scientific discovery doesn't bury Faith, it animates it. The study of Religious philosophy doesn't limit thought, it expands it.

Look at how the Founders struggled with concepts of Justice, what were "rights" and where did our morality emanate? They didn't set up a Government absent of those thoughts and principles boomer, they formed a union dependent on them.

As a Teacher, you owe it to your kids to investigate those concepts, including their Religious and Spiritual foundations.

When the founders were perplexed, struggling over how to organizationally draw that line between a State sponsored Theocracy and a Freedom based self Governing Republic that respected the need for Religious tolerance along with recognition of a Supreme Creator from which our rights came who was in fact above even the State they were trying to organize without Religious conventions....know what they did boom?

They secluded themselves and went off to Pray for Spiritual guidance.

The answer to their Prayers was the greatest document ever written by Man since the Bible was Spiritually inspired for them to write it.

Our Constitution my friend. If you want your kids to really understand how special that document was balancing those very important interests (being Free to Worship and Free to dissent from Worship yet respecting Justice & morality for all) teach them all of it boomer including the Praying Spiritual moral parts.

Private schools do.

Again....you miss the point completely. You are the most biased person I've ever debated with.

I don't assume to teach my students a moral code, I do not teach them righteousness, I do not teach them an America that excludes.

Your idea of America is very wrong, imo. There's nothing left to discuss. Better get as much done as possible in the next 4, cause this type of foolishness will soon die out. My take a generation, but it's coming soon.

 

[atlkvb]

Again....you miss the point completely. You are the most biased person I've ever debated with.

I don't assume to teach my students a moral code, I do not teach them righteousness, I do not teach them an America that excludes.

Your idea of America is very wrong, imo. There's nothing left to discuss. Better get as much done as possible in the next 4, cause this type of foolishness will soon die out. My take a generation, but it's coming soon.

Boomer in all seriousness how do you teach your kids about the Constitution without mentioning "our Creator" that the Founders placed squarely over even the Government itself?

What am I missing? I understand you deny our Creator, but the Founders sure didn't.

Why do Public Government run schools ignore this fundamental truth about our history?

Why do you?

 

[Boomboom521]

Boomer in all seriousness how do you teach your kids about the Constitution without mentioning "our Creator" that the Founders placed squarely over the even the Government itself?

What am I missing? I understand you deny our Creator, but the Founders sure didn't.

Why do Public Government run schools ignore this fundamental truth about our history?

Why do you?

I don't deny creation or even a creator --- just that your idea of it should match everyone else's. I've already explained to you that those words, in their absolute essence, were used as a statement of break from the traditional relationship of divine right as defined in royal bloodlines, and therefore ones rights could only exist THROUGH the monarch. IMO, it's why the word was used ONLY in this portion of the DECLARATION OF INDEPENDENCE, and not used AT ALL when writing our Constitution. It was a necessary statement that rejected the very essence of a monarchy and the establishment of rights under that form of government. Everyman is there own king, and their rights exist not through any man....but through existence itself.

 

[atlkvb]

I don't assume to teach my students a moral code

Then what is justice in your classroom boomer? What makes it so? How do they know? What is "injustice"?

I do not teach them righteousness,

Then what is the Law in your classroom boomer? Why do we need it? What is it based on? Consistent morals, or situational ethics? What is a lie, or being dishonest? Why is it important we insist on that among ourselves or elected representatives? To what end?

I do not teach them an America that excludes.

Then what is Racism in your classroom boomer? Why is it wrong? Based on what? Suppose you're having a current events discussion about Abortion? What do you tell them? If it's OK, why? For those who think it's wrong (since you teach both sides under "diversity") why are they not correct to oppose it?

While I'm at it, you constantly call for "compassion, understanding, and fairness", in the decisions over how to administer public funds to the needy through the Government.

As a Leftist, from where do you draw that authority? You say you don't "impose" your morality onto anyone yet you insist on a certain level of compassion for fellow Americans to show at the expense of other taxpayers whether they agree with your priorities or not.

Why is your level of moral compassion superior to someone elses? Suppose I disagree? What then do you use as a basis to argue for the merits of your position over mine (let's say I don't care to help the poor?) Why are you compelling me if you don't teach a "moral code"?

What do you base your compassion for them on if you don't teach an America that "excludes"?

And if you don't teach an America that excludes, why can't Christian kids Pray in public in Public schools? Who are they "forcing" their Faith on? They're just asking for a chance to practice it.

Is that inclusion boomer?

 

[atlkvb]

I don't deny creation or even a creator --- just that your idea of it should match everyone else's. I've already explained to you that those words, in their absolute essence, were used as a statement of break from the traditional relationship of divine right as defined in royal bloodlines, and therefore ones rights could only exist THROUGH the monarch. IMO, it's why the word was used ONLY in this portion of the DECLARATION OF INDEPENDENCE, and not used AT ALL when writing our Constitution. It was a necessary statement that rejected the very essence of a monarchy and the establishment of rights under that form of government. Everyman is there own king, and their rights exist not through any man....but through existence itself.

I agree with you boom up to your last line (in bold) our rights boomer come from the Creator. That's not an abstract term put in there by the Founders just to set us up separate from the King of England.

It was put there to establish our authority claiming Freedom, Liberty, and our right to Life itself. They said where those rights came from, that they couldn't be taken away, and that they belonged to us as a gift an "endowment" from our Creator who reigns supreme over both Man (Kings) and the Government used to run Man. They weren't there just because "we exist". They came from somewhere they were granted to us from somewhere....that somewhere is our Creator.

It doesn't matter what Religion you use to recognize that, the Founders didn't call on a specific Religion to recognize it, they just stated it.

Public schools ignore this.

Why?

 

[MountaineerWV]

Oh please. Will you give up your "holier than thou" attitude....Do you truly believe that kids cannot pray in public schools? Really? Are you that naive to think and believe this? I challenge you. Go to a public school any day of the week and I will guarantee you that you will see public prayer there. Anyone willing and wanting to join in are encouraged.

Your attitude against public schools is sickening. Your lack of faith in public school teachers is sickening. Many of our great thinkers came through public schools. My children are going through public schools. The problem with public schools started with the No Child Left Behind Act by President Bush and Congress. That started a snowball that has turned in to a giant avalanche.

 

[atlkvb]

Oh please. Will you give up your "holier than thou" attitude....Do you truly believe that kids cannot pray in public schools? Really? Are you that naive to think and believe this? I challenge you. Go to a public school any day of the week and I will guarantee you that you will see public prayer there. Anyone willing and wanting to join in are encouraged.

Your attitude against public schools is sickening. Your lack of faith in public school teachers is sickening. Many of our great thinkers came through public schools. My children are going through public schools. The problem with public schools started with the No Child Left Behind Act by President Bush and Congress. That started a snowball that has turned in to a giant avalanche.

Rather than calling me names and arguing for a failed system that is failing our kids no matter how you choose to measure it do some reading and educate yourself on the inherent problems with Government run schools.

https://fee.org/articles/the-origins-of-the-public-school/

 

[atlkvb]

Oh please. Will you give up your "holier than thou" attitude....Do you truly believe that kids cannot pray in public schools? Really?

It would be educational for me if you could answer the question I posed to boomer in post # 174.

Why do Public Government run schools refuse to acknowledge that our rights come from our Creator when the Founding Fathers specifically delineated that's where they came from?

 

[Boomboom521]

I agree with you boom up to your last line (in bold) our rights boomer come from the Creator. That's not an abstract term put in there by the Founders just to set us up separate from the King of England.

It was put there to establish our authority claiming Freedom, Liberty, and our right to Life itself. They said where those rights came from, that they couldn't be taken away, and that they belonged to us as a gift an "endowment" from our Creator who reigns supreme over both Man (Kings) and the Government used to run Man. They weren't there just because "we exist". They came from somewhere they were granted to us from somewhere....that somewhere is our Creator.

It doesn't matter what Religion you use to recognize that, the Founders didn't call on a specific Religion to recognize it, they just stated it.

Public schools ignore this.

Why?

Because it's not exactly true. Franklin specifically changed several words in the Declaration to tone down Jefferson's religious fervor. You identify that line and the word "creator" as meaning the God you worship (don't lie about other religions either). I personally believe that my "creator" has a form that I could not comprehend, and the creation is not an intelligent design, but rather a formation of energy that changes in relation to life driving forces. Concepts like time, space, creation , and existence are so foreign to anythIng understood by man at this point, to attempt to define them in regards to anything outside of our known universe would be futile. I believe even someone as religious as Thomas Jefferson understood that we all have our own personal relationship to "God" and that relationship shouldn't be defined by anyone else. The founding fathers made it very much a point to omit reference to God or religion in the Constitution. The Declaration was not a declaration of nation building upon a central religious ideal, but rather a declaration of a new way of governing without relying on a representative of "God" (such as a king or a church).

 

[Boomboom521]

Rather than calling me names and arguing for a failed system that is failing our kids no matter how you choose to measure it do some reading and educate yourself on the inherent problems with Government run schools.

https://fee.org/articles/the-origins-of-the-public-school/

And you have no idea what effect Private schools as the primary option for students would have upon those numbers either. Now private schools can be selective in admission, they can keep class sizes small, special needs students can be denied access, and tuition being required automatically increases the numbers of parents likely involved in their children's education (a BIG contributor to overall success of children in school).

Failing? Their are many examples of success across the nation. Many of the "failing" schools are located in large cities where suburban students (as well as students in the cities) are offered those alternative choices to the public option. Leaving even less motivation through positive role models around public school students, and forcing effective teachers out the public school doors in favor of higher salaries at private schools. There are more factors to the situation than you choose to recognize. Mostly because you want to use facts to prove your point and support your biased and stubborn attitudes towards education.

 

[Boomboom521]

Oh please. Will you give up your "holier than thou" attitude....Do you truly believe that kids cannot pray in public schools? Really? Are you that naive to think and believe this? I challenge you. Go to a public school any day of the week and I will guarantee you that you will see public prayer there. Anyone willing and wanting to join in are encouraged.

Your attitude against public schools is sickening. Your lack of faith in public school teachers is sickening. Many of our great thinkers came through public schools. My children are going through public schools. The problem with public schools started with the No Child Left Behind Act by President Bush and Congress. That started a snowball that has turned in to a giant avalanche.

NCLB destroyed progress in public schools across the nation. Standardized testing is still preventing positive change in many schools. Well stated.

And ATL, I don't think he called you even ONE name

 

[atlkvb]

Because it's not exactly true. Franklin specifically changed several words in the Declaration to tone down Jefferson's religious fervor. You identify that line and the word "creator" as meaning the God you worship (don't lie about other religions either). I personally believe that my "creator" has a form that I could not comprehend, and the creation is not an intelligent design, but rather a formation of energy that changes in relation to life driving forces. Concepts like time, space, creation , and existence are so foreign to anythIng understood by man at this point, to attempt to define them in regards to anything outside of our known universe would be futile. I believe even someone as religious as Thomas Jefferson understood that we all have our own personal relationship to "God" and that relationship shouldn't be defined by anyone else. The founding fathers made it very much a point to omit reference to God or religion in the Constitution. The Declaration was not a declaration of nation building upon a central religious ideal, but rather a declaration of a new way of governing without relying on a representative of "God" (such as a king or a church).

That's an interesting interpretation boomer and if you believe that I'm certainly not going to talk you out of it.

But if that's your explanation as to why no specific mention of a "Creator" is allowed in Public schools, then why not teach what you just outlined and leave it up to the kids to decide?

They don't even teach your convoluted expression of what a "creator" is or means, and the Founders weren't guessing about it. In fact they went so far as to claim it is "self evident"

Powerful words.

Public schools don't even recognize THAT!

 

[atlkvb]

Failing? Their are many examples of success across the nation.

You are prepared to argue to me Public schools by and large are succeeding boomer?

I said there are exceptions boom, but what's the norm especially compared to the vast majority or Private schools?

Some of them are failing too no doubt, but compared to Public schools what percentage of Private schools are competing against them and succeeding?

I made a statement you have yet to refute. Private education is superior to Public Education because it has flexibility and diversity in both curriculums and it's mission to individually adjust to and service the specific needs of the students Parents entrust them to educate.

Part of their advantage is Religious or otherwise morally based instruction with understanding of our foundational principles as defined in our Constitution with reverence for and appreciation of our Creator from which all of our morality, rights, and Freedoms emanate, and not promotion or support of the supremacy of Man or the State over human affairs but only as a useful tool to protect and manage those God given rights not control them.

 

[atlkvb]

NCLB destroyed progress in public schools across the nation. Standardized testing is still preventing positive change in many schools. Well stated.

And ATL, I don't think he called you even ONE name

No he didn't boom...and for the most part neither have you! We've had a spirited discussion and acted like Adults which pleases me and shows we're indeed making progress here on the OT board!

 

[Boomboom521]

Then what is justice in your classroom boomer? What makes it so? How do they know? What is "injustice"?



Then what is the Law in your classroom boomer? Why do we need it? What is it based on? Consistent morals, or situational ethics? What is a lie, or being dishonest? Why is it important we insist on that among ourselves or elected representatives? To what end?



Then what is Racism in your classroom boomer? Why is it wrong? Based on what? Suppose you're having a current events discussion about Abortion? What do you tell them? If it's OK, why? For those who think it's wrong (since you teach both sides under "diversity") why are they not correct to oppose it?

While I'm at it, you constantly call for "compassion, understanding, and fairness", in the decisions over how to administer public funds to the needy through the Government.

As a Leftist, from where do you draw that authority? You say you don't "impose" your morality onto anyone yet you insist on a certain level of compassion for fellow Americans to show at the expense of other taxpayers whether they agree with your priorities or not.

Why is your level of moral compassion superior to someone elses? Suppose I disagree? What then do you use as a basis to argue for the merits of your position over mine (let's say I don't care to help the poor?) Why are you compelling me if you don't teach a "moral code"?

What do you base your compassion for them on if you don't teach an America that "excludes"?

And if you don't teach an America that excludes, why can't Christian kids Pray in public in Public schools? Who are they "forcing" their Faith on? They're just asking for a chance to practice it.

Is that inclusion boomer?

Rules that mimic American laws to an extent....the rights of others should be respected. Order and behavior appropriate for a professional setting. Don't confuse morality with law. You are smarter than that, right?

Race is more complex of a concept than we see it as here in the US. Study areas like South Africa or Brazil and you will begin to see that fact. My classroom attempts to break down race as a social concept, and distance that concept from reality. It is not an attempt to force any ideal of racism on students, but rather to dilute the concept of race into a more accurate example of what it truly is.....an optical illusion.

You are seriously mentally tainted. Do you really think I would even attempt to discuss if abortion is right or wrong with a student in class?

If anything, I would discuss positives and negatives in each decision. But I don't think I would even go there. If someone was seriously asking, I would refer them to our school psychologist or their parents for a discussion about the righteousness of the act.


Help for the poor is not "forced compassion", it is money for a better America. Protection from disease, crime, negativity, hurt, and lack of decency that could effect anyone at anytime. The right is just too concerned with losing any of their money that they can't see it's beneficial. No less than the military. I don't like tanks, but I'm not bitching like a girl about having to pay for them.

 

[Boomboom521]

No he didn't boom...and for the most part neither have you! We've a spirited discussion and acted like Adults which pleases me and shows we're indeed making progress here on the OT board!

But you claimed he did didn't you?

 

[atlkvb]

Their are many examples of success across the nation. Many of the "failing" schools are located in large cities where suburban students (as well as students in the cities) are offered those alternative choices to the public option.

Perhaps boom if this is indeed the reason these particular Public schools are failing this model ought to be expanded?

Alternative choices? (this is what I've been arguing throughout the thread) so what we need are more options, more competition, more choices. Vouchers, charter schools. Break up the Government monopoly, introduce options for Parents and let the schools compete against each other to educate kids in pursuit of those dollars.

 

[Boomboom521]

You are prepared to argue to me Public schools by and large are succeeding boomer?

I said there are exceptions boom, but what's the norm especially compared to the vast majority or Private schools?

Some of them are failing too no doubt, but compared to Public schools what percentage of Private schools are competing against them and succeeding?

I made a statement you have yet to refute. Private education is superior to Public Education because it has flexibility and diversity in both curriculums and it's mission to individually adjust to and service the specific needs of the students Parents entrust them to educate.

Part of their advantage is Religious or otherwise morally based instruction with understanding of our foundational principles as defined in our Constitution with reverence for and appreciation of our Creator from which all of our morality, rights, and Freedoms emanate, and not promotion or support of the supremacy of Man or the State over human affairs but only as a useful tool to protect and manage those God given rights not control them.

Private schools cannot be compared to Public schools unless they are given legitimate grounds for comparison. I've already stated that admission restrictions, higher levels of funding, higher salaries for teachers and administrators, and much more parental involvement all skew those numbers of success and failure in the comparison.

Flexibility of curriculum is the only point I agree with....but better care towards the administration of public education is the answer. It's not difficult. Make teaching a revered profession, and talent will fill the positions, if the talent is present in administration and in teaching positions, curriculum will be adapted for optimum success.

Again, BIG difference in the comparisons you attempt to make.

 

[atlkvb]

Rules that mimic American laws to an extent....the rights of others should be respected. Order and behavior appropriate for a professional setting. Don't confuse morality with law. You are smarter than that, right?

Race is more complex of a concept than we see it as here in the US. Study areas like South Africa or Brazil and you will begin to see that fact. My classroom attempts to break down race as a social concept, and distance that concept from reality. It is not an attempt to force any ideal of racism on students, but rather to dilute the concept of race into a more accurate example of what it truly is.....an optical illusion.

You are seriously mentally tainted. Do you really think I would even attempt to discuss if abortion is right or wrong with a student in class?

If anything, I would discuss positives and negatives in each decision. But I don't think I would even go there. If someone was seriously asking, I would refer them to our school psychologist or their parents for a discussion about the righteousness of the act.


Help for the poor is not "forced compassion", it is money for a better America. Protection from disease, crime, negativity, hurt, and lack of decency that could effect anyone at anytime. The right is just too concerned with losing any of their money that they can't see it's beneficial. No less than the military. I don't like tanks, but I'm not bitching like a girl about having to pay for them.

That last line is funny. So you're essentially arguing boomer (correct me if I'm wrong) a valueless society?

In other words, there is no moral grounding to your Law, or decency, or compassion or any other thing one would logically consider a duty to civic mindedness other than your belief in being "cooperative" for a better society?

So why prosecute murder, larceny, embezzlement, dishonesty?

Aren't these all "values" of a moral society? If your world as you described in these posts is not based on any "morality" why would you require such things as I've just described?

Explain my friend.

 

[Boomboom521]

Perhaps boom if this is indeed the reason these particular Public schools are failing this model ought to be expanded?

Alternative choices? (this is what I've been arguing throughout the thread) so what we need are more options, more competition, more choices. Vouchers, charter schools. Break up the Government monopoly, introduce options for Parents and let the schools compete against each other to educate kids in pursuit of those dollars.

Says the man that homeschooled his children?

I've already told you....logistically, it doesn't work....transportation is a big barrier. Rural America doesn't have the same options as the major cities in this regard.

 

[atlkvb]

Private schools cannot be compared to Public schools unless they are given legitimate grounds for comparison. I've already stated that admission restrictions, higher levels of funding, higher salaries for teachers and administrators, and much more parental involvement all skew those numbers of success and failure in the comparison.

Flexibility of curriculum is the only point I agree with....but better care towards the administration of public education is the answer. It's not difficult. Make teaching a revered profession, and talent will fill the positions, if the talent is present in administration and in teaching positions, curriculum will be adapted for optimum success.

Again, BIG difference in the comparisons you attempt to make.

Granted boom and I'll give you that. I'm saying let's make those prerequisites more common through school choice. They won't all be the same, but at least allow them all a chance to excel at whatever level they are capable.

Not everyone can go to Harvard, but there is still a WVU offering a quality education competing for students. Let's use that model in primary education too. Get rid of the Government only run schools. Let them compete too.

 

[atlkvb]

Says the man that homeschooled his children?

I've already told you....logistically, it doesn't work....transportation is a big barrier. Rural America doesn't have the same options as the major cities in this regard.

Market demand addresses those inefficiencies boomer. At one time there was no fiber optic available in rural areas. That is less common now than it was just 5 years ago.

 

[Boomboom521]

That last line is funny. so you're essentially arguing boomer (correct me if I'm wrong) a valueless society?

In other words, there is no moral grounding to your Law, or decency, or compassion or any other thing one would logically consider a duty to civic mindedness other than your belief in being "cooperative" for a better society?

So why prosecute murder, larceny, embezzlement, dishonesty?

Aren't these all "values" of a moral society? If your world as you described in these posts is not based on any "morality" why would you require such things as I've just described?

Explain my friend.

All of those obvious examples you mentioned are individual rights being denied. Are they not? Values, morality, laws.....you use these words interchangeably.....which indicates the extent of how religiously centered your mind is. Not saying it's bad, but it's not conductive to the American experience.

 

[atlkvb]

But you claimed he did didn't you?

In his previous post he did.

 

[atlkvb]

All of those obvious examples you mentioned are individual rights being denied. Are they not? Values, morality, laws.....you use these words interchangeably.....which indicates the extent of how religiously centered your mind is. Not saying it's bad, but it's not conductive to the American experience.

Values are not relative boom. You can argue against a standard all day long, but the moment you remove it you have anarchy.

You and I disagree over where that standard comes from or how it is set, but we don't disagree that it is necessary and important for us to have in order for us to self govern.

I'm not willing to leave it up to Men....they change according to their flexing morals. I prefer a more objective model that's unchangeable. Yes I find that in the Bible.

 

[Boomboom521]

Granted boom and I'll give you that. I'm saying let's make those prerequisites more common through school choice. They won't all be the same, but at least allow them all a chance to excel at whatever level they are capable.

Not everyone can go to Harvard, but there is still a WVU offering a quality education competing for students. Let's use that model in primary education too. Get rid of the Government only run schools. Let them compete too.

That exists now. You want to drain the pool for public schools and give that money to private schools. The more you drain the worse public schools will get. What's left?

Look at a town of say 50,000. Probably 2-3 high schools available to students, right? You want a private school, maybe a christian school as well, and thus the numbers of public high schools would have to drop to at most 2 (if that). Now, you say....perfect! That competition will force teachers and students to thrive. However, with a selective admissions process, that private school can increase tuition (esp if they get the best teachers from the 2-3 highschools in the district). Vouchers cover all of the expense? If yes, than cost of educating each student substantially increases. If no, tuition will be raised enough to limit the pool from which students are pulled from. One way or the other, the public school drops in quality, class sizes increase, and the students that attend have more discipline problems and less academic motivation. How's that translate for those students left behind? Sure scholarships will be given, but potential isn't always so obvious (esp at young ages).

Put more money and attention into Public schools, allow the better more motivated students to help other student rise through mentoring programs. Let great teachers help mediocre teachers improve their skills and abilities in the classroom. Empower administrators to eliminate ineffective educators, empower teachers to use controversial material to get students interested. Focus on parent involvement, make it easier for parents to be involved.

Going your way.....helps some students and leaves the rest in a insurmountable debt. It's not a valid solution. Why don't you ask your church to help fund private school tuition for troubled students? That's a valid solution that fills your religious requirements in two ways.

 

[Boomboom521]

Values are not relative boom. You can argue against a standard all day long, but the moment you remove it you have anarchy.

You and I disagree over where that standard comes from or how it is set, but we don't disagree that it is necessary and important for us to have in order for us to self govern.

I'm not willing to leave it up to Men....they change according to their flexing morals. I prefer a more objective model that's unchangeable. Yes I find that in the Bible.

And you are wrong to impose that objective model on the rest of our "free" nation. Justice is relative to others. Not to any "God".

 

[atlkvb]

And you are wrong to impose that objective model on the rest of our "free" nation. Justice is relative to others. Not to any "God".

That's not the way it's argued in our courts of Law boom sorry to inform you. To whom do witnesses promise to swear to be Truthful to?

"I promise to tell the Truth, the whole Truth and nothing but the Truth so help me ......me?

Our Political leaders are also sworn into Office and pledge an Oath to uphold our Laws "So help me.......me?

And when two people (A Man and a Woman) stand before a Priest or a Rabbi or a Pastor and give their Marital vows to each other the presider over the ceremony says "by the power vested in me by.........me... I now pronounce you Man & Wife"


Even when we are stunned in disbelief over something so horrific, so terrible, so outrageous it shocks our senses we yell out & scream "oh my........me....I can't believe that!!!!!!"


Even when I'm watching our beloved heroes marching down the field for that go ahead touchdown and out of nowhere heading for the goal line the ball pops out and falls into the enemy's hands I automatically scream out "........me Dammit!!!"

 

[Boomboom521]

That's not the way it's argued in our courts of Law boom sorry to inform you. To whom do witnesses promise to swear to be Truthful to?

"I promise to tell the Truth, the whole Truth and nothing but the Truth so help me ......me?

Our Political leaders are also sworn into Office and pledge an Oath to uphold our Laws "So help me.......me?

And when two people (A Man and a Woman) stand before a Priest or a Rabbi or a Pastor and give their vows to each other the presider over the ceremony says "by the power vested in me by.........me... I now pronounce you Man & Wife"


Even when we are stunned in disbelief over something so horrific, so terrible, so outrageous it shocks our senses we yell out & scream "oh my........me....I can't believe that!!!!!!"


Even when I'm watching our beloved heroes marching down the field for that go ahead touchdown and out of nowhere heading for the goal line the ball pops out and falls into the enemy's hands I automatically scream out "........me Dammit!!!"

Nothing says a President must be sworn in on a Bible. I would refuse to swear to God in a courtroom (and that should be ended), and I didn't hear anyone say that at my wedding.

 

[atlkvb]

Nothing says a President must be sworn in on a Bible. I would refuse to swear to God in a courtroom (and that should be ended), and I didn't hear anyone say that at my wedding.

Well boomer when the Left gets as bold as you are refusing to take an oath of office by not swearing on that Holy book that ALL Government officials do before taking office and ALL witnesses do before testifying in Court...then I guess on that day you can truly declare your victory over religious Neanderthals like me.

I doubt you'll ever get than chance though my friend. Listen I truly appreciated the Public vs Private education scrum, thank you for remaining respectful even though you were passionate. You speak well, think well, but you're still an anti-Christian ideologue who for some reason or another hates the very concept of an Almighty God over our Nation.

But that's cool, he's not worried about what you don't know or even what you think you know. I've got to run, go pick on Pax.

Easy my man

 

[bornaneer]

Nothing says a President must be sworn in on a Bible. I would refuse to swear to God in a courtroom (and that should be ended), and I didn't hear anyone say that at my wedding.

I can do without the swearing in on a Bible unless the President- elect requests it. The same goes for weddings unless done in a religious ceremony or requested.