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Meet the Cowboys

TheRedSon

All-American
Oct 13, 2008
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This is Mike Gundy's 8th year as head coach in Stillwater. He has a career record of 64-33, and 36-26 in conference play. That kind of fogs the picture a bit as to where this program is under him right now though. From 2008 through the 2011 season no Big 12 team had a better record than OSU's 41-11, or 25-8 in conference play. Gundy is an OSU alum of course. Some of you older West Virginia fans may remember him handing the ball off to Thurman Thomas and Barry Sanders in the 1987 Sun Bowl, the last time our two programs met. He is an offensive minded coach that also called plays for the offense after Larry Fedora left for Southern Miss in 2007 until he was... uhm... asked to hire an OC to take those duties after the 2009 season. That is, obviously, when he hired Dana Holgorsen. It wasn't the perfect match off the field, but on the sideline the two worked brilliantly together to turn in OSU's first ever 11 win season in 2010. In 2011 he lead OSU to it's first Big 12 conference title and a win in the Fiesta Bowl. Earlier this year Gundy surpassed his old coach to become OSU's winningest coach all time.

Todd Monken replaced Holgorsen as OC in 2011. Monken was an assistant at OSU under Les Miles, and followed him to LSU. He coached receivers and quarterbacks later for the Jacksonville Jaguars. He was new to the Air Raid offense when he came back to Stillwater, but with an experienced 28 year old quarterback and most of the offensive staff still around it was a seamless transition for him, and the work environment for the coaches probably improved a lot too. Monken has embraced the offense Holgorsen left him in Stillwater, but he's also added his own wrinkles and is more focused on the team game as a whole than DH was as OC. The passing game is basically the same, but Gundy and Monken like to run it a bit more than DH, who occassionally seemed to forget to utilize All-American Kendall Hunter when he was calling plays. There is also a higher emphasis on downfield blocking by the receivers. Monken is a more conservative play caller than Holgorsen, but so are about 6,782 other D-1 OC's (OK, I stretched that number a bit).

Bill Young is a veteran DC, and like Gundy is also an OSU alum. He runs a base 4-3 defense most of the time, although one of OLB's is essentially a large safety. On third down he will frequently use a 3 man front in order to flood the passing lanes or confuse the line/QB with various blitz packages. The OSU defense has had mixed results, to say the least, with this approach on third downs though. He is a fairly conservative play caller that emphasizes tackling and forcing turnovers. He's OK with a bending defense so long as it holds in the red zone, and for the most part it's done exactly that at OSU. In his first three years back at OSU the Cowboys ranked at least 11th in turnovers forced nationally, and lead the country last year, but so far this year turnovers have been scarce.

The Offense

Quarterback(s) - I have no idea who will play this game. QB1 Wes Lunt is a true freshmen with a big arm. He's a tall kid, but it's a stretch to call him a big one yet. He has good vision, is intelligent and has a cannon for an arm. He's a lot like Brandon Weeden was in this offense... Except he's not as mature yet. His development has been hampered by injuries all season. In the first series against ULL in our third game he dislocated his knee cap and probably suffered a high ankle sprain that kept him out of our first three conference games. He was rusty against TCU, although he dominated the second half after a rough start. He had a hard time figuring out Kansas State's coverage schemes in Manhattan as he never seemed to see the safeties in route to three picks before leaving the game with a concussion. In his 3, and only 3, true D-1 games he has thrown 7 interceptions. One of those in each game was returned for 6. On the positive side there's not a throw he can't make, and he is very confident in his abilities. QB2 JW Walsh is currently out with what I assume is a leg fracture of some kind. They don't like telling us these things at OSU anymore... If Lunt can't go that leaves Clint Chelf, a fourth year junior that was Weeden's backup the last two seasons. He has a strong grasp of this offense and makes quick decisions where to put the ball. The problems are arm strength, which is only average, and accuracy, which comes and goes. Chelf isn't really a fast QB, but he's got a knack for picking up yards with his feet. If he starts he'll be able to run the offense fine, but isn't likely to dial up a home run throw without someone falling down first. Monken hasn't seemed to trust either Walsh or Chelf much in the red zone (or the receivers for that matter), so even if he leads the offense down the field all day long they'll struggle near the goal line if they can't dominate their run blocks.

Running Back - Joseph Randle is the full package. All of his skills are at least above average. He has good, but not great, speed and agility. His vision is good and he hits the holes well. If there is an area he struggles it's short yardage situations. He's tough, but not really a big back. He's also had fumble issues. I can only remember him losing six fumbles in his three years at OSU, but four of them came in two consecutive games last year. Two of those at Iowa State. What sets him apart form other backs is he's just as good a receiver as he is a running back. OSU will occassionally line him up in the slot or out wide, and when they do that he's not a decoy. He has fantastic hands and runs good routes, and he has 101 career receptions to prove it. He is also the best blocking TB I remember watching at the college level. When he stays back in pass protection he almost never misses a blitzing player and isn't afraid to chip a DE or DT that breaks through. He will lay a hit on someone. His ability to block is a huge reason OSU QB's are sacked so rarely. His backup is Jeremy Smith. Smith is just as dangerous a ball carrier in his own right, but hasn't been playing 100% since the Texas game. If he's healthy now he'll get 30-50% of the carries, and the majority of the short yardage carries. He's about average size, but incredibly strong and is very fast on his first step. Unlike Randle, he almost never gets caught dancing looking for holes. He's going to hit the first seam that opens in front of him. He has good speed, protects the rock and can make the first guy miss with regularity. Although he's as dangerous coming from the backfield as Randle he struggles when asked to do anything other than take a hand off. Smith has below average hands receiving and isn't much of a blocker. Kye Staley is the FB. He was a 4-star RB out of high school, but suffered a similar injury to Lattimore's recent one in practice. The agility that made him a highly sought recruit is gone. What he is now is a fast man that loves to hit people, and he will ruin someone's day when he's on the field. He rarely is asked to carry the ball, but is usually good for one big catch a game. Most DC's fail to scheme for him and they're caught by surprise, he has good hands.

Receiver - We've been hit with the injury bug here just as bad as at QB. Senior outside receivers Tracy Moore and Isaiah Anderson are both hurt. Anderson will probably play some, but mostly to give the other guys a break right now as he's not very effective with his injury. Moore is out of the year, and he's probably OSU's best receiver. There are a handful of other guys out as well, forcing OSU to play two true freshmen quite a bit at outside receiver. Sophomore Josh Stewart is on pace for 1,000 yards. He's a kid Holgorsen recruited to be an inside receiver, and he's filled that role nicely. He's been the most consistent this year. He doesn't have a lot of speed or size, but he runs great routes, has good hands and is very agile. He'll make guys miss all day. Blake Jackson is the other inside receiver. He was a TE in junior college. He's a home run threat when he catches the ball because there's not a lot of safeties that can tackle him easily, and he has good speed for a big guy. He's a huge target in the middle of the field that is a mismatch for S's and LB's both. The problem is his hands. He seems to do fine when it's a tough catch, but he'll drop balls when he's open frequently. Charlie Moore is a fourth year junior that's been our most effective outside receiver since Tracy Moore was hurt (not related, one's white). He's caught TD's in each of the last four games from three different QB's. He has good speed on the outside, decent size and great hands. He doens't have a lot of shake-and-bake though, and he's not likely to win a lot of jump balls. Austin Hays and Blake Webb are the true freshmen you'll see out there a lot, and other than Anderson they maybe the only other receivers we can use right now. Hays is a bit like Charlie Moore, but not quite as fast. Webb has serious track speed, but he's small and inexperienced.

Offensive Line - We think this is the best offensive line in the Big 12, but we think that every year. This unit isn't as good as the one we had last year or when Holgorsen was here though. They are strong on the left side behind LT Parker Graham and LG Lane Taylor. Graham is a great run blocker, and Taylor has started nearly every game for four years now. The right side isn't as strong, but do a solid job of pass protecting considering the losses they've dealt with (RG Jonathan Rush is playing hurt when he plays and Daniel Koeing is still just a pup that's starting at RT because someone got himself kicked off the team). This unit's only allowed Cowboy QB's to be sacked three times this year. They don't always get the praise they deserve, but Joe Wickline's boys are the foundation of the Gundy era Cowboys. The next bad offensive line Wickline coaches at OSU will be the first. In Fedora's spread offense they lead the Big 12 in rushing four consecutive seasons, and they've been just as good in the Air Raid, consistently allowing OSU to produce All-American type numbers at RB despite the limitations this offense puts on a running game.

Between the 20's this OSU offense is almost as dangerous as the one that nearly played for the national championship last year. They average over 7 yards/play, and they're second in the nation in yards/game. They are fast and skilled at every position, but not as fast as West Virginia or Baylor at receiver. Where they've struggled, with no go to receiver and a revolving door at QB, is in the red zone. Gundy and Monken have perhaps been too conservative in that area with the assurance that kicker Quinn Sharp is automatic on kicks under 50 yards. OSU is 12th in the country in red zone scoring percentage, but only 54th in red zone TD percentage. Mostly this offense will look a lot like the West Virginia offense schematically. It has more faith and desire to use the ground game, will sacrifice pace more readily if the game situation calls for it, won't be as aggressive on third down, probably won't go for it often on fourth... We don't use the jet sweep packages Holgorsen developed last year at West Virginia, although we do have some similar plays (not as effective), but we haven't broke them out much this year. We will use a FB probably 5-15 times depending on how effective it is. We like to occassionally use a TE as well, but we don't currently have one that's healthy. If Chelf starts OSU might use some zone read packages, but I doubt it.

I'll do the defense later...
 
TheRedSon, I have another question for you...

By the way, the first part of your team prospectus is incredible...really looking forward to the second half.

Just wondering if you have any hard data on a specific two-point conversion strategy. I believe the overall conversion rate on 2s has run a few points either side of 48% the last time I checked. Please correct me if my memory on that has gotten hazy.

However, what really interests more than the overall rate is the success rate when it's tried under one specific circumstance. Since the implementation of OT for the 1995 bowls and full 1996 season, what is the conversion rate on 2s in an end-game situation when the coach tries it before he must? In other words, I'm curious only about the specific situation in which Patterson found himself last week. He didn't have to try for 2 yet, but did so and ended the game early.

I can remember 2 notable bowl examples of Boise St in the famous Fiesta Bowl victory over Oklahoma, and Mike Riley trying it successfully in a Sun Bowl victory for Oregon St over Missouri a few years ago. I've almost never seen this strategy fail, maybe only once or twice in all these years since OT came into being. No doubt there are more, but my subjective impression is that this "end-it-early" approach has an astronomically higher success rate than the overall success rate for 2s, maybe as high as 75-80%. I just wish I had empirical data to confirm or deny my hypothesis.

It might be possible to count this by hand since most post-1995 NCAA box scores are available online, but I don't have the time to do that slow count right now. I thought you might've seen this topic addressed on an analysis-oriented football site or something.
 
Really good stuff Red Son. Keep posting. You definitely bring a LOT to this board. It helps us Mountaineer fans get acquainted with an opponent that we haven't faced since the Sun Bowl back in the 80's. And I did know that Gundy was the QB on that team, although I think most people remember that you guys somehow had 2 future NFL Hall of Fame running backs on your roster at the same time. lol Major Harris, who finished 5th in the Heisman the following season when Barry Sanders won it was our QB that day (He finished 3rd in 1989).

I have followed OSU a little over the years as I've always been a fan of the Big 12 from afar. And who can forget, "I'm a man...I'm 40!"? OSU has really stepped it up over the past few years though. This isn't your grandfather's Oklahoma State. These guys are on a different level now. Maybe the T. Boone Pickens money is making all the difference, but they have become a force to be reckoned with on the national stage. I don't see that changing anytime soon now that they have that offense going as they do.

As for the game on Saturday, this is another horrible matchup for us. We finally had a good matchup last Saturday because TCU's offense is horrible. And yet we still blew it. I'm expecting this one getting ugly early & stay that way for 4 quarters. Our defense is a sieve & you guys have one of the best offenses in the country (I will mention that they made a change last week in that Joe DeForest is now in the box & Keith Patterson - the other half of the co-DC - was on the field - Holgorsen said that DeForest was still in control, but most are speculating that some of his duties have been handed off to Patterson now). At any rate, you run our offense the way it's supposed to be run. Our offense has been blown completely off the tracks. There are some rumors of all kinds of problems within the locker room on that side of the ball (love triangles, etc.). I don't see us turning it around this season. Which means we're in trouble for a couple of seasons because we lose pretty much everyone on offense after this year is over.

I will take objection to what you say about Holgorsen & the running game. He has said from day one that he is not like his mentor Mike Leach. He used to argue with Leach all the time about running the football. He wants to run the football. I looked up Kendall Hunter's stats & he had 20.8 rushing attempts per game in 2010. Josheph Randle is currently averaging 21.9 attempts per game this season, so it's not really a significant difference there. The problem Holgorsen is having at WVU is that we busted on our running backs in recruiting. Andrew Buie was a 4 star recruit out of FL, but he has proven he is not an every down back. Dustin Garrison was our starting running back last season, but he tore his ACL before the Orange Bowl last year & hasn't been the same this season. He still hasn't fully recovered. Shawn Alston is by far our best running back option but he got hurt in the James Madison game & didn't play again until the TCU game this past Saturday (he only got 7 carries) & he is still limping noticeably. Holgorsen wants to run the ball, but right now he just doesn't have the ability to do it. And that is part of the problem with our offense.

Everyone is dropping 6-8 guys in coverage, which means it takes longer for our receivers to get open. Especially since one of our best receivers (Stedman Bailey) is also injured & playing at what seems to be about 50%. Prior to his injury in the Texas Tech game Bailey was averaging 10 catches for 142 yards per game. He hasn't been the same since. In his past 3 games he's averaging 4 catches for 42 yards per game. He hasn't even had a total of 142 yards in the last 3 games, which was his average coming into the Texas Tech game. It's definitely frustrating.
This post was edited on 11/7 9:52 AM by amath13
 
I agree Holgerson ran it more than most people realized his one year in Stillwater. But when you have a back like Kendall Hunter, only an idiot wouldn't use that weapon. Kendall is undersized, but just seems to have "it". His use as a backup at the SF 49'ers is perfect for them.

For Holgerson to have the same kind of running success at WV, it will take O line development that a Wickline can bring. It isn't every day you have an O line that can efficiently pass protect while being able to power run block out of the same 5 guys. That puts pressure on defenses that is tough to deal with, especially in an up tempo environment.
 
Originally posted by Pancreek1:

For Holgerson to have the same kind of running success at WV, it will take O line development that a Wickline can bring. It isn't every day you have an O line that can efficiently pass protect while being able to power run block out of the same 5 guys. That puts pressure on defenses that is tough to deal with, especially in an up tempo environment.
It's tough, but it can be done. And honestly, it wasn't our offensive line this past Saturday. The backs had holes to run through. They just aren't quick enough or strong enough to get through the holes before they close. Buie seems to have a penchant for running directly into a defensive player instead of hitting a spot that has the open field. And Garrison is still only at about 3/4 speed right now. As I stated in my previous post Alston (not to be confused with Tavon Austin) is the best guy to exploit defenses in the running game, but he is nowhere near 100% right now.
 
And by the way, Holgorsen, despite WVU only rushing for 2.22 yards per carry on Saturday still ran the ball 35 times. That shows me that he wants to run the ball. He just can't with the guys he has right now. When Alston was healthy in our first 2 games we rushed for 7.4 yards per carry.
 
Interesting question on the 2 point conversions... I may look into that some time in the future. During the season it's about all I can do to to put out the possession stats I've shared here. There's a lot more that goes into that than just the lists I've shared. I may take some time later this week to share some of the other stuff I record in that process.

I specifically remember a case of going for 2 early in overtime failing. When Missouri came to Stillwater in 1997, my freshmen year, we were 6-0. Jamal Williams and RW McQuarters anchored a strong Rob Ryan defense, and we had an exciting freshmen QB named Tony Lindsay. It was our first winning season since Barry Sanders won his Heisman, and things were finally looking up after the horrendous probation the NCAA hit us with. We had already won big home games against Texas and Colorado, but Missouri gave us everything we wanted and more that day. The Pokes had a huge fourth quarter to force overtime. In the second OT Bob Simmons chose to go for 2 down 52-51 I believe. I don't remember how that play went down other than Lindsay was tackled short of the goal line, and our season went down hill after that to end 8-4, and we didn't sniff success again until Les Miles arrived and upset OU in Norman in 2000 and went 8-5 in 2001. As soon as I realized where you were going with your question I immediately thought of that game. It's funny how the human mind works, but I suspect the average 30-35 year old OSU fan has a completely different opinion on whether or not it's worth going for 2 early than the average West Virginia fan of the same age right now.

I do believe there have been two Sunbelt games that ended the exact same way in the past few weeks. That's how Louisiana-Monroe beat Western Kentucky.

Patterson did the same thing to Boise State last year BTW.
 
If I implied Holgorsen doesn't want to run the football that wasn't my intent. Simply that Gundy wants to run it more. Both I think would like a 60-40 pass-run split, but when the chips are down Gundy is more likely to lean run than Holgorsen while Holgorsen is more likely to pass. I think Gundy's approach is more "my boys are tougher than your boys" while Holgosen's is "you can't cover everyone, and we'll execute."

I've followed DH as a play caller since he went to Houston (born there, parents went to UH). He runs a LOT more than Leach. He certainly likes to run the football. There were times at OSU when things weren't working on offense that the running game kind of got pushed to the back burner. The first halts against ULL and Texas A&M were dismal failures for the offense, and Hunter wasn't getting the ball while Weeden made mistakes and was under constant pressure against A&M. Holgorsen's immediate response seemed to be "execute faster, play smarter.". After half time we got a steady dose of Kendall Hunter in both games, things calmed down, and the offense started to roll again, and we won both games.

Sometimes, while he was here, I thought Holgorsen was trying to hard to beat teams one specific way. He had free reign of the offense amd didn't like/trust Gundy to interfere with his plans. We had the personnel and offensive coaching expertise to win in multiple ways though with an O-line that did nearly everything well and two great backs in Hunter and Randle in addition to a strong passing game. When he worked with the existing structure in Stillwater they came up with some really brilliant stuff, like the diamond formation that he and Wickline developed that is arguably the best short yardage formation any Air Raid team uses short of abandoning the principles and shifting to a jumbo set like OU does with the Belldozer.
 
Originally posted by TheRedSon:
If I implied Holgorsen doesn't want to run the football that wasn't my intent. Simply that Gundy wants to run it more. Both I think would like a 60-40 pass-run split, but when the chips are down Gundy is more likely to lean run than Holgorsen while Holgorsen is more likely to pass. I think Gundy's approach is more "my boys are tougher than your boys" while Holgosen's is "you can't cover everyone, and we'll execute."

I've followed DH as a play caller since he went to Houston (born there, parents went to UH). He runs a LOT more than Leach. He certainly likes to run the football. There were times at OSU when things weren't working on offense that the running game kind of got pushed to the back burner. The first halts against ULL and Texas A&M were dismal failures for the offense, and Hunter wasn't getting the ball while Weeden made mistakes and was under constant pressure against A&M. Holgorsen's immediate response seemed to be "execute faster, play smarter.". After half time we got a steady dose of Kendall Hunter in both games, things calmed down, and the offense started to roll again, and we won both games.

Sometimes, while he was here, I thought Holgorsen was trying to hard to beat teams one specific way. He had free reign of the offense amd didn't like/trust Gundy to interfere with his plans. We had the personnel and offensive coaching expertise to win in multiple ways though with an O-line that did nearly everything well and two great backs in Hunter and Randle in addition to a strong passing game. When he worked with the existing structure in Stillwater they came up with some really brilliant stuff, like the diamond formation that he and Wickline developed that is arguably the best short yardage formation any Air Raid team uses short of abandoning the principles and shifting to a jumbo set like OU does with the Belldozer.
Gotchya. The bottom line is that Holgorsen wants to run the ball now, but he just can't with any success with what he's got. So I think you'll see that OSU will have much more success running the football on Saturday. And whether Lunt or Chelf play this weekend there is no doubt the passing game will work well for you all.

This post was edited on 11/7 4:23 PM by amath13
 
I have no doubt my team will put up a huge yardage number in this game. What I'm concerned about is turnovers and how often they settle for three in the red zone. Combined with our lack forcing TO's this year and struggles with kick coverage if Sharp doesn't get a TB I think those factors leave the door cracked enough for the West Virginia offense, even if it's not quite clicking like it's capable.

I'll try to do the defense tonight. I took a day off from my football hobby yesterday. I heard something big was happening... My wife said it was important... Probably not the best day to plan on continuing a decent sized hobby project.
 
I thought I'd share this here since it came from an Oklahoma paper and you may not have seen it. DH talks about his time in Stillwater a little and gives some of his thoughts on OSU's team. Also a few thoughts on the kids he coached specifically. Apparently he and I have some similar opinions.

Tell me your impressions on whether or not there's anything underneath his comments on Gundy. It's always been my impression that they really didn't like one another. I can't tell if that was just as far as he would go with professional respect or if it's a genuine compliment. Not that it's any skin off my back either way because regardless of their personal opinions they were fantastic together for one season.

DH Interview
 
Originally posted by TheRedSon:
I thought I'd share this here since it came from an Oklahoma paper and you may not have seen it. DH talks about his time in Stillwater a little and gives some of his thoughts on OSU's team. Also a few thoughts on the kids he coached specifically. Apparently he and I have some similar opinions.

Tell me your impressions on whether or not there's anything underneath his comments on Gundy. It's always been my impression that they really didn't like one another. I can't tell if that was just as far as he would go with professional respect or if it's a genuine compliment. Not that it's any skin off my back either way because regardless of their personal opinions they were fantastic together for one season.
Thanks for the article. Some of the things he said sounded like he got them straight from you. lol As for his relationship with Gundy there are rumors that they weren't exactly good chums off the field, but they got along enough on gamedays to make it work. I'm sure it probably has something to do with the different personality types. Gundy seems to be a guy that likes to control every aspect of his program (type A personality) while Holgorsen seems to be (and probably is in reality) aloof & laid back. I'm sure Gundy wasn't a fan of Holgs sleeping in until noon & wearing flip flops to practice. :) That might have something to do with their relationship. I'm sure if Gundy can do it, he will try to score a few extra touchdowns on Saturday to rub it in to Holgs if the rumors are true about their relationship off the field.
 
Sorry it took me a couple of days to get back to this...

The Defense

OSU runs a base 4-3 defense on first and second downs, and on third downs with less than 4 yards to go usually. They'll shake things up on third down. Bill Young likes to use a three man front on 3rd or 4th and long, and even on 3rd & 4 frequently. OSU will drop 8 into the passing lanes, or blitz from one or two positions, and sometimes drop a line man into coverage while blitzing from two spots. Young wants to give the quarterback a lot of different looks on third down, and bring pressure from unexpected angles. What he wants and what happens haven't always been the same thing though, and the three man front is not very popular with OSU fans over the years. The Cowboys haven't consistently generated pressure from this set, and with time to throw a lot of QB's have eventually made a pass for the first down. That wasn't the case for Iowa State, Kansas and TCU, but Texas and Kansas State, to a lesser extent, hurt the Cowboy D on third down.

Another aspect of Young's strategy is the use of a lot of players. The entire two deep sees a lot of action in most games. Young wants to keep fresh bodies in the game at all times. He really emphasized this starting in 2010 when the Cowboys started using the Air Raid and the defense began to see 80 or more plays a game with regularity.

Defensive Tackle - Sophomore James Castleman is the nose guard, and JUCO transfer Calvin Barnett is the other DT. They are both very good players, and together they're the best the Cowboys have been up front since Kevin Williams was here in 2001. They're pretty good at holding the middle, they will collapse the pocket at times and they do a good job at forcing the run game outside. Barnett is arguably the best defensive player on the team right now and he's been drawing double teams fairly often. Their backups are Anthony Rogers, Davidell Collins and Christian Littlehead. Littlehead was the starter much of the 2011 season, but he is the 5th man up in this group now thanks to off the field behavior and being passed by Castleman. The backups are solid, but not spectacular. Littlehead can make plays, but he's also the most likely to get pushed around defending the run. Barnett will line up at end sometimes in OSU's three man defensive front.

Defensive End - Senior Ryan Robinson is probably OSU's most consistent rush end, but that's not saying much with this group this year. He's capable of producing much more pressure than he has so far I think as he has good speed. His backup is former baseball player Tyler Johnson. Johnson had a big sack on Klien in Manhattan last week, and he is pushing Robinson for more playing time. He will likely see the field on a lot of third downs. He's very fast, but also raw. On the other side seniors Cooper Bassett and Nigel Nicholas are basically co-starters. Both are smart and technically proficient, they are the stronger rush defenders on the line. Bassett frequently mans the middle in Young's three man front, or "speed package." Nicholas has spent most of his career at DT as the Cowboys have been undermanned in the middle of the DL for Gundy's entire tenure until this season. As a group they are solid, but they's had trouble at times containing in the edge against the run, especially against QB's running, and their performance has been disappointing considering how often Barnett is drawing two line men's attention in the middle.

Linebacker - This is OSU's deepest position right now. Junior Caleb Lavey is the Mike. He's smart, tackles well and is the leader on the field. He is basically the prototypical Big Ten middle linebacker... He's not fast, he's a bit rigid and not very good in zone over man coverage. He excels playing down hill and does a good job controlling the middle against the run. The weak side linebacker is senior Alex Elkins. Elkins didn't start playing football until he decided to try to walk on to the Blinn team his freshmen year. The coaches there were immediately impressed with his size and athleticism. Physically he's exactly what you want in a linebacker in this league. He can make plays all over the field with his speed and strength, but he's still a work in progress. Sometimes he takes bad angles to ball carriers or looses containment. He is a dangerous blitzer though. The other outside spot is a LB/Safety hybrid position called the STAR in OSU's system. The STAR usually lines up where you'd expect an OLB, but gives the defense flexibility against teams that like to shift formations, use slot receivers and keep the defense from substituting. Sean Lewis is the starter there, and he's a big play maker. Lewis has good hands and is good in coverage and has speed to beat RB's to the sidelines. He also takes bad angles to ball carriers at times, and he may have bulked up too much this offseason because I don't think he looks as fluid as he did in the past. The backups here are just as good as the starters, and some OSU fans would tell you Ryan Simmons has already surpassed Lavey. Simmons is physically gifted enough to dominate the run game up front and control the middle of the field against the short passing game, but he's not as experienced as Lavey yet and the coaches apparently don't trust his ability to get his teammates lined up the way they do Lavey. Lyndell Johnson and Joe Mitchell are the backups at STAR, but they will both be on the field with Lewis a lot in the speed package. Both of them are fast, but a bit undersized. Johnson's return from injury has been a big part of OSU's improvement on third down as he's very good in coverage. There are three other LB's that will probably see action in this game on ST's at least, but they've all played in the two deep this year. Elkins is the only senior in the position group, so you'll be seeing more of these guys for a while.

Corner - This position group was supposed to be, along with RB, the strength of the team this year. Brodrick Brown and Justin Gilbert both played like All-Americans last year. Gilbert is the fastest player on the team and a former 100 yard champion in Texas. Last year he intercepted passes against RGIII, Ryan Tanehill, Andrew Luck and Landry Jones (among others). Brown is also very fast and has a knack for the big play. Where Gilbert looks like the prototype of the NFL corner Brown is only 5'8," but they call him the "Bulldog" for a reason. He's very physical. He earned that nick name when he physically dominated 6'4" Jeff Fuller in College Station last year. Although these two were both on preseason All-American lists and considered one of the top tandems in the nation at their position they have 0 interceptions between them this year. Gilbert just doesn't look like the same player right now, and if I was honest I'd say he looks like he's coasting through this year to get to the big pay day, but he's been abused by nearly everyone we've faced this year. If he doesn't shape up soon he'll probably be in Stillwater another year. Brown has still played very well, but isn't getting the picks. The two deep has been hurt so much that true freshmen Kevin Peterson and Ashton Lampkin are essentially the only backups. They are both fantastic prospects. Peterson is basically a younger version of Gilbert, and we think we got the best cover corner out of Texas last year in Lampkin. There's a chance Peterson will get the start this week over Gilbert. He's still very inexperienced, but at this point there's little difference between them the way Gilbert's played this year, and I think the coaches are trying to motivate the upper classman.

Safety - Junior Daytawion Lowe anchors the back end of the defense at free safety. Lowe can lay a hit on someone and is good in both pass defense and supporting against the run. As much a disappointment at the secondary has been this year it's not because of his play. His running mate at SS is Shamiel Gary. Gary was a freshmen All-American at Wyoming three years ago, but he left after his sophomore season and walked onto the OSU team as a transfer. He has struggled in pass coverage this year, although he's looked better the last few weeks. Other than Gilbert he has probably been the weak link on this defense. He does throw some solid wood around when he's not missing his tackles. Their backups right now are juniors Zack Craig and Larry Stephens. This is another position group that has been thinned by injury and I think these are the only four bodies we can put on the field right now. Craig, to me, is a LB that was born in a DB's body. He's great against the run, takes good angles and is a sure tackler, but he's NOT good in coverage. Stephens is pretty solid and can play either position, but he's not so good that Young gives Lowe much rest. Lowe will probably see a lot more plays than anyone else on the Cowboys' defense because of the drop off after him.

Special Teams - Quinn Sharp handles all the kicking duties for OSU, and he's damn good at all of them. I think he'd be among the best punters in the NFL right now. He has kicked around 60% of his KO's out of the end zone in his career... Before they moved the kicker up 5 yards. If he fails to reach the end zone now it's almost always because he missed the sweet spot on the ball, and it spells bad news for the coverage unit. They haven't been very good anyway, but when Sharp misses he can send a line drive that has given return men great chances this year. Munroe and Lockett both had big TD returns against OSU this year, and Austin could as well if Sharp has another error. With his leg the Cowboys almost always just try to kick it too deep for return men. He's almost automatic inside of 40 yards on FG's, and can make them much longer (I think he's only 1-4 from more than 50 this year though). Justin Gilbert is the primary kick off return man. He hasn't taken one to the house yet this year, but has 4 KO TD's in his career. He also had a big return erased by a fumble against TCU this year though. His struggles at corner haven't really carried over to the return game, but he also doesn't seem as focused here this year to me. The Cowboys have used a few different players on punt returns this year. Gilbert isn't one of them. Charlie Moore, receiver David Glidden and RB Caleb Muncrief. All of them are fast enough to make something happen, but none of them have had any success in the return game this year other than hanging onto the ball.
 
Originally posted by amath13:

I have followed OSU a little over the years as I've always been a fan of the Big 12 from afar. And who can forget, "I'm a man...I'm 40!"? OSU has really stepped it up over the past few years though. This isn't your grandfather's Oklahoma State. These guys are on a different level now. Maybe the T. Boone Pickens money is making all the difference, but they have become a force to be reckoned with on the national stage. I don't see that changing anytime soon now that they have that offense going as they do.
No, this is most assuredly not anyone's grandfather's Oklahoma State program anymore. The Cowboys have made six consecutive bowl games and nine in the last ten years. That's a far cry from where they were in the 90's.

Nationally, and even within the conference, Boone gets much of the credit for what's happened at Oklahoma State the last few years. He certainly deserves some of the credit as his massive donation allowed us to seriously improve the football facilities. I think that does an injustice to Les Miles, Mike Gundy and the Big 12 conference though. Miles brought pride to the program when he was here from 2001-2004. His Cowboys upset Bob Stoops' teams twice, beat Nebraska for the first time in forever and made consecutive bowls for the first time since Barry Sanders won his Heisman. I don't remember when Boone made his big donation, but the facilities weren't completed until 2009. Gundy had already done impressive work by that point. He cleaned up and rebuilt a program that Miles left in pretty rough shape with a roster full of holes and some personalities that... Well, let's just say some of the kids Miles left him weren't exactly good people. Gundy kicked 8 or 9 guys off the team before the 2005 season. In 2006 he recruited the foundation of his early success at OSU with QB Zac Robinson, OT Russell Okung (Seattle Seahawks), RB Dantrell Savage, LB's Andrew Sexton, Patrick Lavine and Orie Lemon and CB Perrish Cox. This class, combined with Miles' holdovers DeJuan and Donovan Woods and TE Brandon Pettigrew and WR transfer Adarius Bowman made the team competitive very early in Gundy's tenure. In 2007 they added more depth and standouts Dez Bryant and Kendall Hunter. In 2008 OSU started 3 first round selections on offense in Okung, Bryant adn Pettigrew as well as the most prolific passer in school history (before Weeden) in Robinson and a dynamic RB in Hunter. Playing multiple games every year in Texas, thanks to the Big 12, is what made those recruiting classes possible.

What Boone's money did was give us the best, or nearly the best, facilities in the Big 12, especially the facilities used by the players themselves. Thanks to Boone's money kids come away from visits to Stillwater just as impressed as they are in Norman or College Station, and it gave us a huge edge against the rest of the Big 12 and the region. Oklahoma State will never again fall off the map after strong seasons because someone used the program as a stepping stone because the infrastructure is too great now. That said, the program was on the rise already, and it was never a stop on the way to something greater for Mike Gundy like it was for Jimmy Johnson and Les Miles.
 
Originally posted by TheRedSon:



Originally posted by amath13:

I have followed OSU a little over the years as I've always been a fan of the Big 12 from afar. And who can forget, "I'm a man...I'm 40!"? OSU has really stepped it up over the past few years though. This isn't your grandfather's Oklahoma State. These guys are on a different level now. Maybe the T. Boone Pickens money is making all the difference, but they have become a force to be reckoned with on the national stage. I don't see that changing anytime soon now that they have that offense going as they do.
No, this is most assuredly not anyone's grandfather's Oklahoma State program anymore. The Cowboys have made six consecutive bowl games and nine in the last ten years. That's a far cry from where they were in the 90's.

Nationally, and even within the conference, Boone gets much of the credit for what's happened at Oklahoma State the last few years. He certainly deserves some of the credit as his massive donation allowed us to seriously improve the football facilities. I think that does an injustice to Les Miles, Mike Gundy and the Big 12 conference though. Miles brought pride to the program when he was here from 2001-2004. His Cowboys upset Bob Stoops' teams twice, beat Nebraska for the first time in forever and made consecutive bowls for the first time since Barry Sanders won his Heisman. I don't remember when Boone made his big donation, but the facilities weren't completed until 2009. Gundy had already done impressive work by that point. He cleaned up and rebuilt a program that Miles left in pretty rough shape with a roster full of holes and some personalities that... Well, let's just say some of the kids Miles left him weren't exactly good people. Gundy kicked 8 or 9 guys off the team before the 2005 season. In 2006 he recruited the foundation of his early success at OSU with QB Zac Robinson, OT Russell Okung (Seattle Seahawks), RB Dantrell Savage, LB's Andrew Sexton, Patrick Lavine and Orie Lemon and CB Perrish Cox. This class, combined with Miles' holdovers DeJuan and Donovan Woods and TE Brandon Pettigrew and WR transfer Adarius Bowman made the team competitive very early in Gundy's tenure. In 2007 they added more depth and standouts Dez Bryant and Kendall Hunter. In 2008 OSU started 3 first round selections on offense in Okung, Bryant adn Pettigrew as well as the most prolific passer in school history (before Weeden) in Robinson and a dynamic RB in Hunter. Playing multiple games every year in Texas, thanks to the Big 12, is what made those recruiting classes possible.

What Boone's money did was give us the best, or nearly the best, facilities in the Big 12, especially the facilities used by the players themselves. Thanks to Boone's money kids come away from visits to Stillwater just as impressed as they are in Norman or College Station, and it gave us a huge edge against the rest of the Big 12 and the region. Oklahoma State will never again fall off the map after strong seasons because someone used the program as a stepping stone because the infrastructure is too great now. That said, the program was on the rise already, and it was never a stop on the way to something greater for Mike Gundy like it was for Jimmy Johnson and Les Miles.
Good stuff Red Son. Just watching OSU games on TV I can tell how impressive the facilities are there. I have a 2nd cousin that lives about 25 miles west of Tulsa, so I am planning on making the trip out there someday for a game. Both of her kids graduated from OSU, so it would be pretty cool to get out there to see them & attend a game with them.

WVU is at a huge disadvantage when it comes to donor money. There are only 1.8 million people in WV & it's a poor state. We have some big donors, but all of them combined probably aren't in the same stratosphere as Boone. Nor are they willing to give as much as he did to OSU. We do have a pretty progressive AD right now & he is working to make things better, but Holgorsen has said on a few occasions that we have the worst facilities in the Big 12. I think that's probably some hyperbole thrown out to get the AD to make some moves, but we definitely have a long way to go to catch up to Austin, Norman & Stillwater.

We do have a pretty good fan base, especially considering how small our state is population wise. Our state has the smallest population of any BCS program. Nebraska is close, but they have Lincoln, which is almost 10 times the size of Morgantown in population. Right now we are 3rd in the Big 12 in average attendance with 58,012 fans per game. We generally average between 55,000-60,000 depending on how the season is going. And most of the time when attendance dips, it's because of our students. Our student section is WAY too big & they bail as soon as the weather turns south or the team goes south or in the case of this season both lol. Which is why we rarely average our capacity of 60,000. Last time we did that was in 2007, the season we choked away a national title chance. At any rate, I would rate the passion of our fans up there with any program. We just don't have the numbers because of population.

When you add things up, as I stated before, we are severely behind in a lot of areas in the Big 12. Our state is small so we don't have an in state recruiting base (there are usually only 1-2 Div. 1 athletes coming out of WV each year). And we aren't really near any areas that are considered big recruiting territories. Western PA is okay and we try to work that area, but it is owned by Penn State and we have trouble even taking players away from Pitt. It's a very parochial area so it's hard to talk kids into leaving home. Even though Morgantown is right on the border of Western PA. Ohio is good, but Ohio State & Michigan eat up all the good players there. Our most successful area over the years has been dipping into Florida. There are so many good players there that we can take some of the diamonds in the rough & bring them up here. Currently we have Geno & Stedman Bailey (although Geno & Stedman were 4 star recruits in Rivals) and a few other guys that have been really successful here. And the list is too big to mention in our history of going into Florida. Doc Holliday, Marshall's current head coach, started that trend for WVU back in the 80's with Don Nehlen. Baltimore has been a pretty good area recently for us in recruiting as well (Tavon Austin for a current example), although it's tough to get kids away from Maryland. But the bottom line is that we rarely crack the top 25 in recruiting. We usually hover somewhere between 25-35. I really think we need to start hitting the JUCO ranks if we want to compete for Big 12 titles. It's probably going to be our only shot at getting there. It definitely isn't going to happen within the next couple of years. Next season is going to be a long one for Mountaineer fans.

Looking forward to Saturday's game (kind of lol). Just looking forward to a new opponent and playing a program that I respect. It's nice to have a really good opponent every week as opposed to snoring through South Florida & UConn type programs each weekend. I don't see this one turning out like the Sun Bowl in '87. Most of our fans are expecting OSU to blow us out in the same way we lost to Texas Tech & Kansas State. We lost a WR yesterday who just announced he was transferring. He was named the starter a couple of games ago & then he quit this past week. There are rumors of more attrition coming from within the locker room as well. I think this one could get ugly because I think Holgs might have lost this team. I hope not, but when reading the tea leaves it doesn't look good.
This post was edited on 11/9 9:56 AM by amath13
 
Originally posted by TheRedSon:

Special Teams - Quinn Sharp handles all the kicking duties for OSU, and he's damn good at all of them. I think he'd be among the best punters in the NFL right now. He has kicked around 60% of his KO's out of the end zone in his career... Before they moved the kicker up 5 yards. If he fails to reach the end zone now it's almost always because he missed the sweet spot on the ball, and it spells bad news for the coverage unit. They haven't been very good anyway, but when Sharp misses he can send a line drive that has given return men great chances this year. Munroe and Lockett both had big TD returns against OSU this year, and Austin could as well if Sharp has another error. With his leg the Cowboys almost always just try to kick it too deep for return men. He's almost automatic inside of 40 yards on FG's, and can make them much longer (I think he's only 1-4 from more than 50 this year though). Justin Gilbert is the primary kick off return man. He hasn't taken one to the house yet this year, but has 4 KO TD's in his career. He also had a big return erased by a fumble against TCU this year though. His struggles at corner haven't really carried over to the return game, but he also doesn't seem as focused here this year to me. The Cowboys have used a few different players on punt returns this year. Gilbert isn't one of them. Charlie Moore, receiver David Glidden and RB Caleb Muncrief. All of them are fast enough to make something happen, but none of them have had any success in the return game this year other than hanging onto the ball.
Awesome stuff again!! Obviously OSU's offense against WVU's defense is a HUGE mismatch, but not nearly as awful as the mismatch on special teams. Austin is a really good punt/kick returner, but that's about it when it comes to our special teams (although lately he has been our only bright spot on offense as well). On kickoffs we rarely kick the ball to the back of the end zone. And we are #87 in kickoff return defense. So you can expect some big returns tomorrow. Punting & kicking FG's are a disaster. We are currently #110 in net punting & someone else already mentioned the struggles of Tyler Bitancurt our kicker in another thread (or maybe it was this one). It's a calamity of errors with that group. Our defense & special teams can definitely be compared to the Keystone Cops.
 
Your average attendance given the population is damned impressive. We have a tough time selling out a brand new, sparkly stadium and great gameday experience with twice that population. OU takes all of the State of Oklahoma's "bandwagon" fans, and we are fine with that LOL. An interesting stat I saw the other day was that OSU puts more alumni in the stadium on gameday than OU. Our stadium seats 60k, theirs 85k. The difference is bandwagon t shirt fans. Usually you'd want those fans to spend money with you.....but in this case, I'd say no thanks :)
 
Good explanation...

That pretty much jibes with my outside impression of the Cowboy program, and it's a big reason why their under-their-national-radar ascension amongst the college football hierarchy doesn't bother me like it does with the oh-so-detestable Oregon. By contrast, Oklahoma St's slow rise seems fueled largely by good old-fashioned hard work. The one big donor helps, of course, but it also doesn't appear unsavory unlike up in the Northwest.

I'm actually at a loss to explain one thing about this game, and that is the sudden spate of ESPN yo-yos picking WVU to win. There isn't really any objective reason to do so, just a bunch of substance-less "They're due to get it back together this week" malarkey. Everywhere you look on the field is one mismatched unit against another. Quite possibly the only fact-based advantage WVU might have is if the Cowboys continue a recent trend of turning it over. Other than that, there isn't much empirical data to suggest a possible area of disadvantage for OSU.

Naturally I hope the Mountaineers can buck all the evidence and find some kind of winning formula, but blind hopes for an uncharacteristically good performance is about all we have right now. Realistically I am expecting nothing less than a comfortable Cowboys victory, and for the WVU season to circle the drain much more swiftly as a result. Joe DeForest, please prove me wrong.


This post was edited on 11/9 3:46 PM by GoWVU
 
I thought that was a pretty good game. West Virginia made too many mistakes for it to be as good as it could have been, but they had a chance still late.

That was the best I've seen our secondary look all season against a passing game capable of hurting them (and they did hurt us). Justin Gilbert looked like himself again several times in this one. I think it says a lot for West Virginia that we played well in the secondary and they still wracked up the yards and protected the ball in the passing game. Your backup looked pretty damn sharp on that one TD pass. I was surprised they didn't call time out and get Geno back in if they were going for it there.

Special teams play was huge for the Cowboys, and really hurt West Virginia. Quinn Sharp proved again today that he's worth his weight in gold. Gilbert's TD return was huge, and he kept us in good field position most of the day.

I can't say enough about how well Chelf ran the offense. Not many teams can rely on their third string QB to put up a performance like that against a quality conference opponent. Even bigger was the play of Josh Stewart. The long TD run looked like something Holgorsen would draw up to me, and he was there all day when Chelf needed him. For the most part West Virginia played well enough on everyone else that combined with Chelf's limitations we needed everything Stewart could give us today and he delivered.

Smith looked a little off still to me today, but a ton better than the last three weeks. I think he played well enough to win in Stillwater if the Cowboys hadn't played so well. I thought Bailey was the best receiver in the conference before today, and he certainly lived up to that. I thought we did a tremendous job limiting Austin though, not that he didn't play well, just that we didn't give him a chance to beat us often.

Anyway, I hope you all enjoyed your visit to Stillwater, other than the outcome, and I really enjoyed watching both teams today. I think this is going to be a fun series for years to come.
 
Pretty much agree with your assessment. Can't say enough good things about the fans in Stillwater. Nicest bunch of fans I've been around, and that's saying something after a few other trips. Classy across the board for my experience.
 
Originally posted by TheRedSon:
I thought that was a pretty good game. West Virginia made too many mistakes for it to be as good as it could have been, but they had a chance still late.

That was the best I've seen our secondary look all season against a passing game capable of hurting them (and they did hurt us). Justin Gilbert looked like himself again several times in this one. I think it says a lot for West Virginia that we played well in the secondary and they still wracked up the yards and protected the ball in the passing game. Your backup looked pretty damn sharp on that one TD pass. I was surprised they didn't call time out and get Geno back in if they were going for it there.

Special teams play was huge for the Cowboys, and really hurt West Virginia. Quinn Sharp proved again today that he's worth his weight in gold. Gilbert's TD return was huge, and he kept us in good field position most of the day.

I can't say enough about how well Chelf ran the offense. Not many teams can rely on their third string QB to put up a performance like that against a quality conference opponent. Even bigger was the play of Josh Stewart. The long TD run looked like something Holgorsen would draw up to me, and he was there all day when Chelf needed him. For the most part West Virginia played well enough on everyone else that combined with Chelf's limitations we needed everything Stewart could give us today and he delivered.

Smith looked a little off still to me today, but a ton better than the last three weeks. I think he played well enough to win in Stillwater if the Cowboys hadn't played so well. I thought Bailey was the best receiver in the conference before today, and he certainly lived up to that. I thought we did a tremendous job limiting Austin though, not that he didn't play well, just that we didn't give him a chance to beat us often.

Anyway, I hope you all enjoyed your visit to Stillwater, other than the outcome, and I really enjoyed watching both teams today. I think this is going to be a fun series for years to come.
I told you our special teams were um...special. We literally handed OSU 17 points on special teams (maybe more if you count the idiotic play down on the goal line after a punt that should have easily been downed around the 1). We had no chance because of that. Not that we would have won anyway (Oklahoma State was the better team), but the game would have been more interesting imo had that not happened. Something kicked WVU in the groin after that game in Austin and I don't know what it was but it sucks for anyone affiliated with WVU. This team went from a potential top 25 team to a team struggling to make a bowl game. I'm sure Big 12 fans will say it's because we're playing a tougher schedule, but I don't buy that completely.

Sure I can buy more losses, but not losing games by an average of 25 points per game (that is our average over the past 4 games). This team is headed for 5-7 imo. Oklahoma is going to bend us over on Saturday & Iowa State will beat us by at least a couple of TD's. I don't know if they will have anything left in the tank for Kansas. A Kansas team that just took Texas Tech to overtime on their home field. This season has turned into a complete disaster & I'm starting to worry that we hired the wrong guy at the top. We definitely hired the wrong guy to coach our defense. That one is a no brainer. I'm hoping that Holgorsen is smart enough to can that bad decision & start over there. If he does that in the offseason then my confidence in him might be restored somewhat. Either way, we're looking at another 2-4 years before we can be competitive in this league.


By the way, OSU looked really good on Saturday. Was impressed with Josh Stewart. That guy is a handful & he killed us on Saturday. Too much speed from him. I honestly thought our defense did a decent job against your offense most of the day. They gave up too many big plays, but that's the norm for them. Stewart was the difference though. He ate our lunch.
This post was edited on 11/12 9:23 AM by amath13
 
Originally posted by amath13:

I told you our special teams were um...special. We literally handed OSU 17 points on special teams (maybe more if you count the idiotic play down on the goal line after a punt that should have easily been downed around the 1). We had no chance because of that.

This post was edited on 11/12 9:23 AM by amath13
And the real irony in that is this. OSU has been very good on special teams for over a decade. DeForest's main job was head of special teams, and his secondary job was safeties. When he jumped with Dana, many of us over here were wondering if our special teams would noticably suffer without having a coach like Deforest focusing on special teams VERSUS the "special teams by committee approach" that Gundy has taken this year. As all of the special teams guffaws were occurring Saturday, I couldn't help but think of Deforest having to watch that transpire given what we were in that area under his guidance for over a decade.
 
There is no doubt special teams played an immense role in the outcome of that game. Going into it I thought both teams would struggle there. OSU did a lot of creative things to deny West Virginia return chances when they were kicking into the wind, and Sharp delivered on those kicks. That's not our MO. We almost always just let Sharp use his howitzer leg and see what happens. Great coaching to shake things up. West Virginia had the two muffed kicks that just killed them. That's ugly. Gilbert was due a big return. He had two in each of the previous two seasons, and he set that one up well waiting for the blocks. Sharp was also effective as always punting and kicking FG's.

I think WVU gets two more wins if it helps your opinion on this season. Your defense actually has handled the run well in the Big 12. Other than Stewart's sweep you basically shut down what I think is the best running back in the Big 12 after our first two possessions. They did leave Smith too big a hole in the fourth quarter and he's have scored on that play if he needed 1,000 yards to do it. I was glad to see him look so sharp on that run because we've really missed him. I think your defense will look a lot better against Kansas and Iowa State because they need to succeed on the ground to make anything work. Kansas doesn't have enough D to stop your offense if, as I suspect, they brushed off the cobwebs for good in Stillwater. The Iowa State defense is stout, but they're looking really banged up right now.
 
Originally posted by TheRedSon:

I think WVU gets two more wins if it helps your opinion on this season.
That is nice of you to say/post, but I'll be shocked if we win 2 more. There is some major attrition going on with the team right now. We just had 2 more guys quit the team today with rumors of more to come. It's sort of like this is Dana's first year instead of last year since we kept the same defensive coaching staff intact for his first season. I believe we are about to finish out the season on a 7 game losing streak. Reminds me of Rich Rodriguez's first season in which we finished 3-8 back in 2001, which is the last time we finished the season with a losing record.
 
Originally posted by Pancreek1:

Originally posted by amath13:


I told you our special teams were um...special. We literally handed OSU 17 points on special teams (maybe more if you count the idiotic play down on the goal line after a punt that should have easily been downed around the 1). We had no chance because of that.


This post was edited on 11/12 9:23 AM by amath13
DeForest's main job was head of special teams, and his secondary job was safeties.
Therein lies our biggest issue. Dana hired a career special teams coordinator to coach our defense. Terrible hire. I'm sure DeForest is a great recruiter and all of that, but we don't necessarily need great recruiters here. We need great coaches to coach the diamonds in the rough up because we can't recruit the cream of the crop no matter who is recruiting here. There is no in state recruiting base and it is extremely difficult to talk players into moving to West Virginia. The negative stereotypes are used against us all over the east coast. You have to find guys that you can develop & then coach them up. DeForest was the wrong guy for that job.
 
He might be a good safeties coach. We were certainly better there the last few years than we are right now. No one knew how much credit to give him as a coach, at least no one that isn't an insider. He never coached the kickers and punters, I know that. His return units were great when we had Guys like Dez Bryant, Perrish Cox and Justin Gilbert, and not so great so great when we didn't. His coverage units were always awful.

He is a good recruiter. Not necessarily the guy that gets all the big names, but the guy that convinced players in the bottom half of the top 100-150 players in Texas to look out of state. He might be able to do that in Florida also.

Speaking of recruiting, how often do you guys pull Texas kids now? I wouldn't be surprised if you start getting 3-5 a year in the future. I doubt West Virginia is far enough away that they couldn't do as well in Texas as Iowa State or maybe Missouri did.
 
Originally posted by TheRedSon:

Speaking of recruiting, how often do you guys pull Texas kids now? I wouldn't be surprised if you start getting 3-5 a year in the future. I doubt West Virginia is far enough away that they couldn't do as well in Texas as Iowa State or maybe Missouri did.
We've been hitting Texas. In Holgorsen's first season he picked up Dustin Garrison (2 star RB out of Pearland, TX) & Paul Millard (3 star QB out of Flower Mound, TX). Garrison was our starter by the end of the season last year, but tore his ACL prior to the Orange Bowl & he hasn't been the same this season. He got a few carries against OSU on Saturday, but was not real effective. Millard is our primary backup this year because the other guy is a freshman (I'll mention later) & is being redshirted. Millard came in & threw a TD pass to Bailey when Geno had to come out on 4th down because his helmet fell off.

Last year's recruiting class had 5 guys from Texas on it. Four of the five guys are being redshirted. Jordan Thompson is the only guy that is seeing time this season. He's a 2 star WR out of Katy, TX. He's the guy (#10) that was WIDE OPEN on one of our plays over the middle of the field & would have scored had Geno not overthrown him. He is one of our starters now that 2 receivers have left the program (including the highly regarded Ivan McCartney who was a 4 star WR out of Miami, FL in high school, but pretty much turned into a bust at this level) & has 12 catches for 74 yards on the season. Ford Childress, the guy I alluded to earlier, is a 3 star QB out of Houston & supposedly will be the starter next season from what we've heard coming out of practice. He is redshirting this season & will likely be the heir apparent to Mr. Smith. It's hard to really comment on him because he hasn't played this season & he didn't participate in spring drills because he got a DUI. lol

As for the current recruiting class we have 2 offensive lineman out of TX & that is it so far. Our bread & butter will continue to be FL because of our connections to high school coaches there (we have some former players that are coaches down there), but I think we will continue to try to get guys out of TX. Like you said, it's probably not going to be more than 3-5 per year, but that we'll definitely hit that state with our coaching staff's connections there. I do think we need to hit some JUCO's though. We need to build depth quickly & that just isn't going to happen with guys out of high school. I realize the downside to recruiting JUCO's, but since the Big East took away the ability to recruit props & the Big 12 never allowed that to happen, we need to find some other way to make up for the lack of a recruiting base that most of the other conference programs in the Big 12 don't have.
 
On DeForest...

After reading your analysis of what was good & bad about OSU special teams under DeForest, I am going to take that as a pretty strong indictment of his abilities even though you didn't put it that way.

You mentioned ST was good for a decade in Stillwater. However, you also went on to say DeForest didn't handle kicking & punting, that coverage was always awful, and the return game was only good when the inherit talent of the returner was good. If that's all true, then what the hell did DeForest contribute? It sounds like a whole lot of nothing to me.

The funny part is that's a fairly close mirror of WVU special teams over the last 15 years. Coverage is usually terrible, the return game is good when we have a Tavon Austin or Pac-Man Jones type and anonymous when we don't, and the kicking and punting is up and down. It sure doesn't sound like I can expect anything to get better in Morgantown based on what you've said about DeForest's time in Stillwater.

To be completely honest, I'm having a really hard time seeing what purpose this guy serves. He'd better be as silver-tongued as a military recruiter in kids' living rooms, because he isn't bringing a damn thing to the table otherwise.

It certainly is strange hearing largely favorable opinions on Holgorsen and, to a lesser extent, DeForest coming from Cowboys fans...because right now in West Virginia one is being seriously questioned as a possible lemon, and the other may be the most hated non-political figure in the state.
 
Defo - Hey, it's your board. I try not to make it a habit to not insult the coaches and players of another team when I'm a guest... Most fans at OSI weren't upset to see him go though. I personally think he wasn't a good ST coach, but perhaps an adequate position coach for the safeties. We've certainly taken a step back since he left (of course Markelle Martin graduated too, and both the backups there have been hurt all year). What he did well for us was recruit. He was never going to be given the DC job in Stillwater.

DH - He's the one you think is a lemon? We loved him here for the most part. He brought serious swagger to the offense and his ability to lead the offense allowed Gundy to finally fully transition into the head coach instead the offensive chief. I think he's a tremendous offensive mind and a great coordinator. I also think it was a risk to hand him a whole program though. There are few coordinators anywhere more qualified to get a job like WVU than him, but there are a lot of them with more, uhm, professional personalities. I think he'll be as good ad he wants, or allows himself, to be.
 
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