We all know that median family income has fallen as have wages

[WVPATX]

under Obama. So the answer proposed by the Dems is to legalize millions upon millions of cheap labor? What is that going to do to wages? And please spare me the line that they do the jobs that Americans don't want to do. The fact is that illegals depress wages. If a job is available that can't attract labor, the owner must raise the wage rate to attract labor. It's how the market works.

Dems simply want the votes and they could give a rats a$$ that the middle class suffers. Big labor is in favor because they believe they will get to unionize all the illegal workers. Big business is in favor because they get cheap labor. And America suffers.


This post was edited on 4/14 11:30 AM by WVPATX

 

[TarHeelEer]

A little nuanced, but that is incorrect

Democrats want to legalize them for the votes.
Republicans want to legalize them for the cheap labor to their corporate sponsors.

Both fail.

 

[WVPATX]

Even a little more nuance

The Republican establishment wants to legalize them for their corporate sponsors.

 

[TarHeelEer]

Seems the Republican establishment = Republicans

Doesn't matter how many tea partiers not Libertarians get in.

 

[Keyser76]

Democrats need more votes?

Did you look at the 2012 numbers? Only time the GOP wins anymore is during the midterms where they can get elected in districts drawn to favor them. Demographics are way worse for the GOP in the future than for the DNC already. Birthrates are up for legal Hispanics and by being the "deport them all" party, they are less and less likely to vote for the GOP even when they agree on most issues.

 

[WVPATX]

Re: Democrats need more votes?

You are being willfully blind if you don't believe the Dems want more hispanics since they vote overwhelmingly Democrat. They are much more socialist in their beliefs than immigrants from many other parts of the world.

 

[TarHeelEer]

I didn't say need, I said want

Don't twist my words, go play a video game or something.

I truly don't care about demographics nor districts drawn or any of that mess anymore. The country is about to be bankrupted and neither party cares. I can't wait until our credit starts being called junk, that day will be fun.

 

[WhiteTailEER]

It fell under Bush too, and was in steep decline in 2009

 

[WhiteTailEER]

Interesting point ... especially when your party fights minimum wage

Originally posted by WVPATX:
If a job is available that can't attract labor, the owner must raise the wage rate to attract labor. It's how the market works.



This post was edited on 4/14 11:30 AM by WVPATX

The argument the GOP and supporters make is by raising wages you raise the price of everything to where it's still out of reach for many. Also, that people need to get off welfare and get out and work.

But then you say we need to raise wages to make jobs more attractive for people to go and work. Sounds exactly like the argument the Dems make to raise minimum wage.

 

[dolemitebmf]

Re: A little nuanced, but that is incorrect

Very good point Tarheel.
Posted from Rivals Mobile

 

[TarHeelEer]

This gets into the greed of the 1%

and it's only gotten worse over the last 50 years. Raising the minimum wage doesn't create the demand for labor. It's a mechanism that worsens the demand for labor.

Stop importing cheap labor by the trainload. Stop abusing H1B's. That might do it.

 

[EEResistable]

Re: A little nuanced, but that is incorrect

Democrats don't need the votes. They also serve the money people.

 

[dave]

Re: Interesting point ... especially when your party fights minimum wage

Well there is a difference between raising the labor cost for landscaping and raising the labor cost of grocery stores and resturaunts.

 

[dave]

Re: Democrats need more votes?

Only time the dnc wins is when they can heat in districts that facor them.

 

[WhiteTailEER]

Another interesting point

Especially when you used grocery stores and restaurants.

A large portion of those jobs are agricultural jobs. Don't you think that will carry over into higher prices at grocery stores and restaurants? That would increase prices at every step in the supply chain, or decrease profits.

 

[DvlDog4WVU]

Re: Another interesting point

Originally posted by WhiteTailEER:
Especially when you used grocery stores and restaurants.

A large portion of those jobs are agricultural jobs. Don't you think that will carry over into higher prices at grocery stores and restaurants? That would increase prices at every step in the supply chain, or decrease profits.

You know that isn't going to happen. It gets passed on down the line to the consumer.

 

[mneilmont]

Not sure big business would be in favor. They are not going to attract a large portion of the income of those living on subsistence. Little business would participate in that part of society. Grocery store and small eateries and ag.

 

[WhiteTailEER]

Re: Another interesting point

Originally posted by DvlDog4WVU:

Originally posted by WhiteTailEER:
Especially when you used grocery stores and restaurants.

A large portion of those jobs are agricultural jobs. Don't you think that will carry over into higher prices at grocery stores and restaurants? That would increase prices at every step in the supply chain, or decrease profits.

You know that isn't going to happen. It gets passed on down the line to the consumer.

Yeah. I wasn't clear but that was pretty much my point. I think it would have a much greater impact on those costs than just the workers in the grocery stores and restaurants would.

Now, the prices of goods and service have little to do with the cost to produce or provide them. It's all about what the market will pay for it. Where the overhead costs come into play is whether the market price produces enough margins to make it worthwhile.

Take fast food. How many people work at one time? 6? 8? So, a $2 increase in minimum wage means they have to make $12-$18 / hour more to cover that cost. How many people are served in an hour? It would be $1 or less per order. That's not hugely significant.

I don't have a good sense of how many people work in a grocery store at a time, but when you figure 75% of the people there have probably $100-$300 worth of stuff in their cart, it wouldn't take a huge price increase to cover each worker. $5-$10 per cart? However, if there are additions at every step in the supply chain that $100-$300 probably turns into $150-$400, which would be a much larger increase per cart than it would be just covering the labor in the store itself.

 

[DvlDog4WVU]

Re: Another interesting point

Originally posted by WhiteTailEER:

Originally posted by DvlDog4WVU:

Originally posted by WhiteTailEER:
Especially when you used grocery stores and restaurants.

A large portion of those jobs are agricultural jobs. Don't you think that will carry over into higher prices at grocery stores and restaurants? That would increase prices at every step in the supply chain, or decrease profits.

You know that isn't going to happen. It gets passed on down the line to the consumer.

Yeah. I wasn't clear but that was pretty much my point. I think it would have a much greater impact on those costs than just the workers in the grocery stores and restaurants would.

Now, the prices of goods and service have little to do with the cost to produce or provide them. It's all about what the market will pay for it. Where the overhead costs come into play is whether the market price produces enough margins to make it worthwhile.

Take fast food. How many people work at one time? 6? 8? So, a $2 increase in minimum wage means they have to make $12-$18 / hour more to cover that cost. How many people are served in an hour? It would be $1 or less per order. That's not hugely significant.

I don't have a good sense of how many people work in a grocery store at a time, but when you figure 75% of the people there have probably $100-$300 worth of stuff in their cart, it wouldn't take a huge price increase to cover each worker. $5-$10 per cart? However, if there are additions at every step in the supply chain that $100-$300 probably turns into $150-$400, which would be a much larger increase per cart than it would be just covering the labor in the store itself.

Don't forget the cost increases associated with shipping and receiving. Then the shipping increases themselves. If you look at just a single widget, it might go up a penny. If you add all of the widgets up together, then it starts to get expensive to the consumer. Then we're right back to people making enough to sustain themselves and viola, another wage increase, inflation leads to inflation which leads to decrease in the dollar which leads to rapid inflation.

 

[WhiteTailEER]

Re: Another interesting point

Originally posted by DvlDog4WVU:
Don't forget the cost increases associated with shipping and receiving. Then the shipping increases themselves.

That's a good point, and I vaguely/briefly touched on it with the reference to every step in the supply chain. We've seen this recently when the gas prices went to nearly $4/gallong.

 

[DvlDog4WVU]

Re: Another interesting point

Originally posted by WhiteTailEER:

Originally posted by DvlDog4WVU:
Don't forget the cost increases associated with shipping and receiving. Then the shipping increases themselves.

That's a good point, and I vaguely/briefly touched on it with the reference to every step in the supply chain. We've seen this recently when the gas prices went to nearly $4/gallong.

I think it get's lost on people how much is actually IN the supply chain. They simply look at an individual widget.

 

[WhiteTailEER]

Re: Another interesting point

Originally posted by DvlDog4WVU:
I think it get's lost on people how much is actually IN the supply chain. They simply look at an individual widget.

I don't think it gets lost, I think they just don't give it any thought whatsoever. We are all guilty at times of taking a lot for granted without thinking about anything that goes into it. Or maybe that's what you mean.

Some companies (SC Johnson is one) provide annual Sustainability Reports. They look beyond the supply chain even and look at the eventual disposal of their products and packaging. I'm getting slightly off topic now, but I like that they do this. As far as supply chain is concerned though, they look for ways to use less/better ingredients, ways to reduce energy use at their plants (one plant has 100% of power produced by renewable energy), ways to reduce fuel use in transportation, etc.


SC Johnson Sustainability Report