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Thoughts on Israeli actions as payback to Bebe?

DvlDog4WVU

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Feb 2, 2008
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Is Obama really that petty? I'd like to give him the benefit of the doubt, but the more I analyze this, the more this seems like pettiness. Strategically, it makes zero sense and pushes Israel into a corner, of which, they won't back down from a fight.

I just don't think most American's fully understand what Israel means to Jewish people and Israelis.
 
Is Obama really that petty? I'd like to give him the benefit of the doubt, but the more I analyze this, the more this seems like pettiness. Strategically, it makes zero sense and pushes Israel into a corner, of which, they won't back down from a fight.

I just don't think most American's fully understand what Israel means to Jewish people and Israelis.
In his final days he's making the world less safe, and for what? His legacy? To stick it to Trump?
 
The US didn't vote. 14 other nations did and they ALL voted that the settlements in the West Bank by Israel are illegal.

Those 14 included Russia and China. Your logic doesn't make sense. Where do you get these ridiculous ideas.

Is Russia in on sticking it to Bebe?
 
The US didn't vote. 14 other nations did and they ALL voted that the settlements in the West Bank by Israel are illegal.

Those 14 included Russia and China. Your logic doesn't make sense. Where do you get these ridiculous ideas.

Is Russia in on sticking it to Bebe?
If you don't know the US and Russia have been fighting a proxy war in the Middle East centered around Israel for over 60 years then you need to study up.
 
If you don't know the US and Russia have been fighting a proxy war in the Middle East centered around Israel for over 60 years then you need to study up.

Again, check your logic. The US did NOT vote. Russia voted against Israel.

So us and Russia fighting over the Middle East caused us to buddy up with Russia against Israel? WTF?
 
Again, check your logic. The US did NOT vote. Russia voted against Israel.

So us and Russia fighting over the Middle East caused us to buddy up with Russia against Israel? WTF?

Perhaps there is some sort of plan already laid out between Trump and Putin and that is why they are "buds". Once in time in history, a German leader and a Soviet leader struck a secret deal for Poland......Jews were involved in this, too......how'd that turn out? :uzi:
 
Again, check your logic. The US did NOT vote. Russia voted against Israel.

So us and Russia fighting over the Middle East caused us to buddy up with Russia against Israel? WTF?
Seriously, is this your poor attempt at trolling or do you really believe that?
 
Again, check your logic. The US did NOT vote. Russia voted against Israel.

So us and Russia fighting over the Middle East caused us to buddy up with Russia against Israel? WTF?

The US didn't vote. 14 other nations did and they ALL voted that the settlements in the West Bank by Israel are illegal.

Those 14 included Russia and China. Your logic doesn't make sense. Where do you get these ridiculous ideas.

Is Russia in on sticking it to Bebe?

Russia has a long history of trying to exterminate Jews, long before even Hitler tried. Russia is not, and never has been, Israel's friend. Yes, Russia wanted to stick it to Bebe. Russia will take any opportunity to hinder and endanger Israel. Israel, as a democracy and as an ally of the United States, is viewed by Russia as an obstacle to expansion of Russia's influence in the MidEast.
 
Is Obama really that petty? I'd like to give him the benefit of the doubt, but the more I analyze this, the more this seems like pettiness. Strategically, it makes zero sense and pushes Israel into a corner, of which, they won't back down from a fight.

I just don't think most American's fully understand what Israel means to Jewish people and Israelis.

I believe this was mostly personal. Obama hates Bibi and and Bibi hates Obama. This abstention makes no sense. The settlements in the West Bank that obsess Kerry are not the obstacle to peace. The obstacles to peace are the Palestinians refusal to recognize Israel's right to exist.

Israel is using the settlements as a bargaining chip knowing they will have to give up some of those settlements in a peace accord. But in giving them up, they will get something in return. Not anymore.

This also opens up Israel to boycotts. You don't treat an ally this way. It is petty, childish and absolutely foolish, but in keeping with the rest of the abysmal Obama record in the Middle East.
 
Russia has a long history of trying to exterminate Jews, long before even Hitler tried. Russia is not, and never has been, Israel's friend. Yes, Russia wanted to stick it to Bebe. Russia will take any opportunity to hinder and endanger Israel. Israel, as a democracy and as an ally of the United States, is viewed by Russia as an obstacle to expansion of Russia's influence in the MidEast.

And yet, it is Obama who is getting slammed here and not Trump who is "best buds" with Putin.......and Russia......but it's Obama that won't "protect" the Jews.
 
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I believe this was mostly personal. Obama hates Bibi and and Bibi hates Obama. This abstention makes no sense. The settlements in the West Bank that obsess Kerry are not the obstacle to peace. The obstacles to peace are the Palestinians refusal to recognize Israel's right to exist.

Israel is using the settlements as a bargaining chip knowing they will have to give up some of those settlements in a peace accord. But in giving them up, they will get something in return. Not anymore.

This also opens up Israel to boycotts. You don't treat an ally this way. It is petty, childish and absolutely foolish, but in keeping with the rest of the abysmal Obama record in the Middle East.

Let me ask you, how would you feel if Native Americans flocked to your property and put up their teepees and said "this is our ancestral lands and we aren't leaving"????? Even though they had vacated the lands centuries ago?

Just a question.....nothing more.
 
Again, check your logic. The US did NOT vote. Russia voted against Israel.

So us and Russia fighting over the Middle East caused us to buddy up with Russia against Israel? WTF?
The US abstention left our most reliable ally to fend for themselves against Russian backed ME foes. Our abstention allowed the balance of power to tilt decisively toward the Palestinians, and therefore the Syrians, and therefore the Russians. Who makes the rockets Hamas and Hezbollah fire into Israeli neighborhoods from the Gaza Strip and from Lebanon?
 
Russia has a long history of trying to exterminate Jews, long before even Hitler tried. Russia is not, and never has been, Israel's friend. Yes, Russia wanted to stick it to Bebe. Russia will take any opportunity to hinder and endanger Israel. Israel, as a democracy and as an ally of the United States, is viewed by Russia as an obstacle to expansion of Russia's influence in the MidEast.

I'm not arguing any of that. The OP stated that the Israel situation was Obama's payback against Bebe. Ridiculous, considering the US didn't even vote and the vote was 14 other nations to no one else. No one.

Everyone recognizes that the settlement was illegal, against a previously agreed to two-state solution.

Don't give someone a pass just because they are from Israel.
 
Let me ask you, how would you feel if Native Americans flocked to your property and put up their teepees and said "this is our ancestral lands and we aren't leaving"????? Even though they had vacated the lands centuries ago?

Just a question.....nothing more.
Thats not even a remotely valid comparison
 
I'm not arguing any of that. The OP stated that the Israel situation was Obama's payback against Bebe. Ridiculous, considering the US didn't even vote and the vote was 14 other nations to no one else. No one.

Everyone recognizes that the settlement was illegal, against a previously agreed to two-state solution.

Don't give someone a pass just because they are from Israel.
I'm actually amazed at your simplistic understanding of geopolitical relations and strategy.
 
Let me ask you, how would you feel if Native Americans flocked to your property and put up their teepees and said "this is our ancestral lands and we aren't leaving"????? Even though they had vacated the lands centuries ago?

Just a question.....nothing more.

I am not a Middle East expert, but a few thoughts. The land is question is the West Bank and East Jerusalem. The West Bank has been called Judea and Samaria by Jews for thousands of years. The Jews have lived in that territory for at least 6,000 years although they were expelled by the Ottoman Empire, but I may be wrong on that point. The Palestinians, as a people, did not exist until modern times, I think in the 19th century. They are most likely a collection of Lebanese, Jordanians, Syrians and Egyptians.

As you likely know, the West Bank was taken by the Israelis during the 1967 war, known as the 6 day war. If you are not prepared to lose land, don't start a war. In 6 days, the Jews destroyed the Egyptians, Syrians and Jordanians and took over that land. Throughout history, land taking by conquerers has been the case.

Still, I do believe in a 2 state solution. I believe the Palestinians deserve land they can call home. But this resolution does far more harm than good, imo. It takes an important bargaining chip away from the Israelis. It turns the world even more against the Jewish state and makes boycotts much more likely. The Palestinians don't even recognize the Jewish state's right to exist. Not sure how you negotiate when your opponent wants nothing more than to destroy you. And the Palestinians have refused to even sit down for negotiations. When Arafat walked away from Clinton's peace arrangement where they PLO got 97% of what they wanted, it signaled to me that they don't want peace. They want Israel gone.
 
I am not a Middle East expert, but a few thoughts. The land is question is the West Bank and East Jerusalem. The West Bank has been called Judea and Samaria by Jews for thousands of years. The Jews have lived in that territory for at least 6,000 years although they were expelled by the Ottoman Empire, but I may be wrong on that point. The Palestinians, as a people, did not exist until modern times, I think in the 19th century. They are most likely a collection of Lebanese, Jordanians, Syrians and Egyptians.

As you likely know, the West Bank was taken by the Israelis during the 1967 war, known as the 6 day war. If you are not prepared to lose land, don't start a war. In 6 days, the Jews destroyed the Egyptians, Syrians and Jordanians and took over that land. Throughout history, land taking by conquerers has been the case.

Still, I do believe in a 2 state solution. I believe the Palestinians deserve land they can call home. But this resolution does far more harm than good, imo. It takes an important bargaining chip away from the Israelis. It turns the world even more against the Jewish state and makes boycotts much more likely. The Palestinians don't even recognize the Jewish state's right to exist. Not sure how you negotiate when your opponent wants nothing more than to destroy you. And the Palestinians have refused to even sit down for negotiations. When Arafat walked away from Clinton's peace arrangement where they PLO got 97% of what they wanted, it signaled to me that they don't want peace. They want Israel gone.
I saw at least one study that said the Palestinians have more genetic commonality with Jews than any other ethnic.

Also the West Bank is more Samaria/Galilee than Judea.
 
The Jews have lived in that territory for at least 6,000 years although they were expelled by the Ottoman Empire.....

I'm no Middle East expert, either. That's why I'm not overly critical of any decisions made in that region because the people making them know more of what's going on than any of us do. Most are reacting through Biblical terms and through their religious beliefs (both Muslims and Jews and Christians).

Now, the above quote is exactly why I used my Native American comparison. We "expelled" the Indians on to reservations and they had lived here for thousands of years. If suddenly they returned, would they have a legal right to remove us from our established homesteads?
 
I'm no Middle East expert, either. That's why I'm not overly critical of any decisions made in that region because the people making them know more of what's going on than any of us do. Most are reacting through Biblical terms and through their religious beliefs (both Muslims and Jews and Christians).

Now, the above quote is exactly why I used my Native American comparison. We "expelled" the Indians on to reservations and they had lived here for thousands of years. If suddenly they returned, would they have a legal right to remove us from our established homesteads?

But in this case, it was the Jews that were expelled from Judea and Samaria. The Palestinians as a people did not exist until the 19th century. The Indian analogy is flawed.

Also, the Arabs started the 67 war. They lost and they lost territory. Almost all wars end up with this same result. The U.N. says that is now illegal, but it has been practiced throughout world history. Otherwise, California would be in Mexico.

This abstention went against established American policy. Obama can make his own policy, which he did. Now Trump will have his say and try and undo the damage this will cause.
 
But in this case, it was the Jews that were expelled from Judea and Samaria. The Palestinians as a people did not exist until the 19th century. The Indian analogy is flawed.

Also, the Arabs started the 67 war. They lost and they lost territory. Almost all wars end up with this same result. The U.N. says that is now illegal, but it has been practiced throughout world history. Otherwise, California would be in Mexico.

This abstention went against established American policy. Obama can make his own policy, which he did. Now Trump will have his say and try and undo the damage this will cause.

America has supported the two state solution for many years now.
 
America has supported the two state solution for many years now.

I was not talking about a 2 state solution. I was talking about not allowing the U.N. Security Council to dictate Israeli policy by using our veto. As I posted, I support a 2 state solution.
 
The US didn't vote. 14 other nations did and they ALL voted that the settlements in the West Bank by Israel are illegal.

Those 14 included Russia and China. Your logic doesn't make sense. Where do you get these ridiculous ideas.

Is Russia in on sticking it to Bebe?
So now you are siding with Putin?
 
I'm no Middle East expert, either. That's why I'm not overly critical of any decisions made in that region because the people making them know more of what's going on than any of us do. Most are reacting through Biblical terms and through their religious beliefs (both Muslims and Jews and Christians).

Now, the above quote is exactly why I used my Native American comparison. We "expelled" the Indians on to reservations and they had lived here for thousands of years. If suddenly they returned, would they have a legal right to remove us from our established homesteads?
The world decided to award the Jewish state of Israel in 48 and recognized it in 49. It obviously pissed off the Arab states.

The Palestinian argument wasn't actually started until the 70s as a means for the surrounding Arab states to try and destabilize the Israeli claim to statehood. In effect, there is no such thing as a Palestinian. The term was used as a pejorative towards Jews in that area prior to the 6 day war.

The world as a whole isn't and never will accept the Jewish state as a solution which is what allowed the holocaust to occur. This is why Country's argument about the vote is a partisan fallacy trying to justify what occurred. On a daily basis Israel is in a constant state of war for its existence. People are kidding themselves if they think a 2-state solution will solve the problem. The surrounding Arab states will never stop pushing Israel even if Palestine is acknowledged.

A slight issue here concerning the Gaga Strip and West Bank is that Israel claimed them as a buffer after the 6 days war. There was a convention in I think 49 which outlawed the taking of land post war. That's the argument being made against settlements in that area. It's technically illegal for Israel to claim that territory, however, it holds strategic military value.
 
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The world decided to award the Jewish state of Israel in 48 and recognized it in 49. It obviously pissed off the Arab states.

The Palestinian argument wasn't actually started until the 70s as a means for the surrounding Arab states to try and destabilize the Israeli claim to statehood. In effect, there is no such thing as a Palestinian. The term was used as a pejorative towards Jews in that area prior to the 6 day war.

The world as a whole isn't and never will accept the Jewish state as a solution which is what allowed the holocaust to occur. This is why Country's argument about the vote is a partisan fallacy trying to justify what occurred. On a daily basis Israel is in a constant state of war for its existence. People are kidding themselves if they think a 2-state solution will solve the problem. The surrounding Arab states will never stop pushing Israel even if Palestine is acknowledged.

A slight issue here concerning the Gaga Strip and West Bank is that Israel claimed them as a buffer after the 6 days war. There was a convention in I think 49 which outlawed the taking of land post war. That's the argument being made against settlements in that area. It's technically illegal for Israel to claim that territory, however, it holds strategic military value.

You're exactly right about the U.N. decree regarding the taking of land after a war. But as well all know, winners get the spoils. The 67 war was essentially started by Egypt, Syria and Jordan. They lost and thus the West Bank was lost. The U.N. considers it occupied territory. I wonder what they consider California?

Frankly, considering how one sided the U.N. is toward Israel, if I were Israel, I wouldn't recognize the U.N. decree making the taking of land illegal. Many, many lands around the world have been conquered and taken many times.
 
The world decided to award the Jewish state of Israel in 48 and recognized it in 49. It obviously pissed off the Arab states.

The Palestinian argument wasn't actually started until the 70s as a means for the surrounding Arab states to try and destabilize the Israeli claim to statehood. In effect, there is no such thing as a Palestinian. The term was used as a pejorative towards Jews in that area prior to the 6 day war.

The world as a whole isn't and never will accept the Jewish state as a solution which is what allowed the holocaust to occur. This is why Country's argument about the vote is a partisan fallacy trying to justify what occurred. On a daily basis Israel is in a constant state of war for its existence. People are kidding themselves if they think a 2-state solution will solve the problem. The surrounding Arab states will never stop pushing Israel even if Palestine is acknowledged.

A slight issue here concerning the Gaga Strip and West Bank is that Israel claimed them as a buffer after the 6 days war. There was a convention in I think 49 which outlawed the taking of land post war. That's the argument being made against settlements in that area. It's technically illegal for Israel to claim that territory, however, it holds strategic military value.

The spoils of war. If the Syrians, Egyptians et al, wanted to keep that land, maybe they should have fought better.
 
You mean like how Jordan took it in 1948?

Jordan couldn't hold onto a cup of coffee. If Israel wanted to, they could wipe out most of the countries that surround it. Maybe they should and make those that want to live in piece negotiate with Israel for their survival. We would never allow a country to fire missles into our back yard. We would fvck up Canada or Mexico if they did it.
 
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kennedy.jpg
 
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This shows you just how far left the libs have gone. JFK wouldn't recognize the party. He was pro American. Pro military. Pro tax cuts. Pro economic growth. Pro capitalism.
 
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