Rich Rod Style Offense > Dana Holgorsen Style Offense

OlegeezEER

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It's been two consecutive weeks that we have witnessed an innovative spread offense take an Air Raid offense to the woodshed. Its looking like a major mistake that we went away from this. The Kansas offense would be a perfect fit for Wvu. We had success with this for many years under RR. The Kansas offense has enough of a passing element to keep opposing D coordinators off balance. You don't need as much NFL talent to run this offense. This type of offense also helps mask the deficiencies of your own talent. Houston D coordinator Doug Belk said he had seen nothing like this. Our D coordinator Jordan Lesley looked lost as well. This type of offense led us to new Heights. We found ways to close out games. We also had more trickeration in the offense. As some have previously mentioned Urban Meyer won a national championship with a spread option. Oregon one of the more successful non blue bloods has played for two national championships with this style of offense. When Neal Brown came to Wvu he stated that he wanted to establish a better running game. He should have installed an innovative rushing attack instead of a more conventional run game. The Problem with the Air Raid is you have to always have a QB that can make all the throws and a good oline that can hold down the fort. We rarely get that. Mike Leach has been the most successful of the Air Raid coaches, but he has never won a major bowl game. People say the Air Raid is exciting but with a few exceptions we haven't really won that much with it over the last decade. When we were running the spread, we talked about what we accomplished. Under the air raid it's been woulda coulda shoulda and a bag of nuts.
 
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deedoubleyou

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I couldn't agree more with that idea. Fk the air raid, its not even fun after you've seen it too much. Sure you can put up big points, but it hasnt won a national championship yet for any team from what I can tell has it? And we only get a QB good enough to do well in it once in every few years, when we luck out with a transfer. We haven't recruited a QB out of high school who has thrived in the spread since Geno Smith. Holgerson's best year of coaching was when he had no choice but to run because Skylar wasnt really cut out for the air raid. We won 10 games that year. Go figure.

The spread option with a running QB, imo, is the way. Run and stop the run has always been the real formula for a championship anyway, at any level of football. I would love to bring it back.
 

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It's not the offense. It's the talent in the offense and lack of execution. That falls back to the coach.
 
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Buckaineer

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Both coaches won at WVU. Holgorsen had a top ten offense for WVU in 2018, not sure how high RRs went. Both were better coaches for WVU than Brown, neither are coming back.
 

OlegeezEER

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I couldn't agree more with that idea. Fk the air raid, its not even fun after you've seen it too much. Sure you can put up big points, but it hasnt won a national championship yet for any team from what I can tell has it? And we only get a QB good enough to do well in it once in every few years, when we luck out with a transfer. We haven't recruited a QB out of high school who has thrived in the spread since Geno Smith. Holgerson's best year of coaching was when he had no choice but to run because Skylar wasnt really cut out for the air raid. We won 10 games that year. Go figure.

The spread option with a running QB, imo, is the way. Run and stop the run has always been the real formula for a championship anyway, at any level of football. I would love to bring it back.
Its also much easier to recruit an elite runner as opposed to an elite passer. Pat White originally committed to LSU as a DB. Rod convinced him to decommit and come play QB at Wvu.
 
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OlegeezEER

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Both coaches won at WVU. Holgorsen had a top ten offense for WVU in 2018, not sure how high RRs went. Both were better coaches for WVU than Brown, neither are coming back.
RR won at Wvu, Holgorsen didn't. He was nothing but average at best. Rod got his shot at the Big time Dana got relegated to G5 status.
 
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OlegeezEER

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Holgs record would dispute your claim.
How many ranked teams that finished the year in the top 25 did Holgorsen beat with a team that he recruited? Where is Holgorsen coaching now? That should tell you what you need to know. The Bulk of his best wins came early in his tenure with Bill Stewarts players.

RR offense > Dana offense not even close
 

Buckaineer

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RR won at Wvu, Holgorsen didn't. He was nothing but average at best. Rod got his shot at the Big time Dana got relegated to G5 status.
Wrong. Holgorsen won more games at WVU than RR did. That DH chose to move to Houston probably speaks to the negative and unappreciative administration at WVU. But guess what, next year he will be back in the P5– making more money Than what WVU paid him. Meanwhile WVU is stuck with Brown and RR coaches an fcs team.
 
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OlegeezEER

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Wrong. Holgorsen won more games at WVU than RR did. That DH chose to move to Houston probably speaks to the negative and unappreciative administration at WVU. But guess what, next year he will be back in the P5– making more money Than what WVU paid him. Meanwhile WVU is stuck with Brown and RR coaches an fcs team.
What was RR''s winning %? What was Dana's winning %? How many ranked teams did RR beat with a team he recruited? How many did Dana beat? Coach's that come to wvu are not looking to parlay that gig into a G5 job. Holgorsen is in Houston because they are the only ones that want him. Maybe if he would have adopted a spread option instead of a crappy Air Raid offense things might have turned out better for him.
 

ThePunish-EER

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Both coaches won at WVU. Holgorsen had a top ten offense for WVU in 2018, not sure how high RRs went. Both were better coaches for WVU than Brown, neither are coming back.

Wrong. Holgorsen won more games at WVU than RR did. That DH chose to move to Houston probably speaks to the negative and unappreciative administration at WVU. But guess what, next year he will be back in the P5– making more money Than what WVU paid him. Meanwhile WVU is stuck with Brown and RR coaches an fcs team.
In case you missed it, Kansas beat Dana’s Houston team like a drum yesterday. Brown did better against Kansas last week. What’s your thoughts on that?
 

OlegeezEER

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In case you missed it, Kansas beat Dana’s Houston team like a drum yesterday. Brown did better against Kansas last week. What’s your thoughts on that?
Don't expect an answer someone else asked him about this in another thread and he did his typical duck and weave Troll act.
 

Buckaineer

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In case you missed it, Kansas beat Dana’s Houston team like a drum yesterday. Brown did better against Kansas last week. What’s your thoughts on that?
Brown coaches a BIG 12 team that recruits in the P5. Holgorsen recruits current G5 Houston which is not yet a P5 team.

Do you understand the difference?

At WVU, Holgorsen performed better than Brown has by a long shot. Do you understand the difference?

Brown is WVUs current HC and has produced some of the worst results ever for a HC at WVU. Holgorsen on the other hand was one of the best ever. Do you comprehend this?
 

Buckaineer

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What was RR''s winning %? What was Dana's winning %? How many ranked teams did RR beat with a team he recruited? How many did Dana beat? Coach's that come to wvu are not looking to parlay that gig into a G5 job. Holgorsen is in Houston because they are the only ones that want him. Maybe if he would have adopted a spread option instead of a crappy Air Raid offense things might have turned out better for him.
You can put out the facts yourself. % is great- who was it against in comparison. In the BE about the same. RR never faced a BIG 12 level schedule. Wins are what matters and DH had more- which is why you want to drum up a meaningless stat to hide from the actual wins. The numbers vs. ranked teams are similar, but Holgorsen faced much more highly ranked teams than RR. RR was beating ranked UConn, Rutgers, Louisville. Holgorsen was winning against top 15 Texas at Texas, Top 15 ISU, Baylor, TCU. A different level of competition.

Holgorsen went to Houston because they wanted him and WVU didn’t.

Meanwhile RR is in the fcs.

unfortunately WVU is stuck with Brown who no one wants.
 

Jason Voorhees

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Brown coaches a BIG 12 team that recruits in the P5. Holgorsen recruits current G5 Houston which is not yet a P5 team.

Do you understand the difference?

At WVU, Holgorsen performed better than Brown has by a long shot. Do you understand the difference?

Brown is WVUs current HC and has produced some of the worst results ever for a HC at WVU. Holgorsen on the other hand was one of the best ever. Do you comprehend this?
Do you understand that Dana's best season was with a team that he didn't recruit? Do you understand that the bulk of Dana's biggest wins happened early in his tenure with Bill Stewarts recruits? Things are not looking good for your messiah in Houston. He is starting to get his own players on the field and hasn't won anything. Kind of like how it was for him at wvu when he got his own team in.
 

Jason Voorhees

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You can put out the facts yourself. % is great- who was it against in comparison. In the BE about the same. RR never faced a BIG 12 level schedule. Wins are what matters and DH had more- which is why you want to drum up a meaningless stat to hide from the actual wins. The numbers vs. ranked teams are similar, but Holgorsen faced much more highly ranked teams than RR. RR was beating ranked UConn, Rutgers, Louisville. Holgorsen was winning against top 15 Texas at Texas, Top 15 ISU, Baylor, TCU. A different level of competition.

Holgorsen went to Houston because they wanted him and WVU didn’t.

Meanwhile RR is in the fcs.

unfortunately WVU is stuck with Brown who no one wants.
Hey buck Holgorsen never beat a ranked ISU team you liar. In 2016 Holgorsen's best season here he only beat 3 teams with a winning record. One was an fcs school the other was a G5 school and only 1 win against a power 5 team with a winning record. 7 of the 10 wins that year were against teams with a losing record which was typical of the Holgorsen era. You shouldn't be knocking the Old Big East teams considering Holgorsen got curb stomped by them. In Year 6 with his best team he got curb stomped by Miami who was coached by retread Mark Richt. In year 7 He lost to Virginia Tech to another air raid reject who has been fired. Then in his last game year 8 he couldn't beat a Syracuse team in a bowl game. He also couldn't neat Syracuse in the pin stripe bowl in year two.
 
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spreadoption

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It really is both. Kneel has addressed the talent issue to some degree.
Really? The talent level on this team has it ticketed for the Big 12’s basement. He has addressed nothing because he has no clue how to fix this dog turd he’s created.
 

Volatility

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It's been two consecutive weeks that we have witnessed an innovative spread offense take an Air Raid offense to the woodshed. Its looking like a major mistake that we went away from this. The Kansas offense would be a perfect fit for Wvu. We had success with this for many years under RR. The Kansas offense has enough of a passing element to keep opposing D coordinators off balance. You don't need as much NFL talent to run this offense. This type of offense also helps mask the deficiencies of your own talent. Houston D coordinator Doug Belk said he had seen nothing like this. Our D coordinator Jordan Lesley looked lost as well. This type of offense led us to new Heights. We found ways to close out games. We also had more trickeration in the offense. As some have previously mentioned Urban Meyer won a national championship with a spread option. Oregon one of the more successful non blue bloods has played for two national championships with this style of offense. When Neal Brown came to Wvu he stated that he wanted to establish a better running game. He should have installed an innovative rushing attack instead of a more conventional run game. The Problem with the Air Raid is you have to always have a QB that can make all the throws and a good oline that can hold down the fort. We rarely get that. Mike Leach has been the most successful of the Air Raid coaches, but he has never won a major bowl game. People say the Air Raid is exciting but with a few exceptions we haven't really won that much with it over the last decade. When we were running the spread, we talked about what we accomplished. Under the air raid it's been woulda coulda shoulda and a bag of nuts.
Been SCREAMING this from the rooftops to anyone thatll listen for the past X Years.... Almost verbatim... Far easier for us to recruit, because we arent competing for the same kids in the same "traditional" pool...

Kansas has found the perfect combination of introducing enough of a balanced & diverse attack to eliminate predictability and keep opposing def honest.

Not just that, but Speed & Shiftiness are the two skillsets that will make a 5 star DB look stupid.... Its terribly difficult to scheme against, and when combined with creative schemes, and a "blue collar" mentality its very hard to beat.

Its the easiest path forward that will allow a non-blueblood to compete at a higher level... WVU will NEVER be able to consistently compete deploy the same concepts, same methods, which require the same types of players as programs who can outplay us in that recruiting pool and by a wide margin...

Once Lance has a few years to increase the overall team talent level, that team will be a real force.... Shit they are close now, with low 3 star players..... The ole "Yeah but kids wont wanna play there because they wont be drafted", which is BS, as the NFL has now adapted and willing to run unique schemes....

Its sad that use to be OUR BRAND...... But in all likelyhood, its probably to late to pursue, because those things cycle in and out of the game and by the time WVU would find the right staff, players, development, etc to deploy it, the game would have already caught up and Kansas would have already held that ticket...

At least, until it cycles down again.... As the leagues are copy-cat, so DC's will mitigate their deficiencies to it...

That doesnt mean we cant make it our own, and put our own spin on it.... While similar philosophically...

Our roster just isnt good enough to compete this year.... We are to damn young at to many positions, and while they may be talented, thats like playing & relying on Sam James when he was a freshmen.... Even tho they are talented, they should not be depended on for another couple years.

The sad part is this is the first loss of the year where WVU was soundly beat.... but because of that youth and inexperience playing together, or absolutely boneheaded mistakes, we are 2-3....

Texas just manhandled us at every phase.

Sam James should switch to DB..... I mean that with every ounce of my soul... He seems like a good kid, but my goodness, Ive never seen a team or a few players have as many drops as WVU the past 3 years.

They need to buy a tennis ball machine, buy about 20 Brown magic markers and paint every tennis ball brown, then have WR's catch brown tennis balls from the machine to help with hand&eye... In addition to the jugs machine.... If they are going to deploy an offense, that relies on and puts the game in WR hands, than those hands need to be consistent. At least not consistently ranked in the top of the league for drops... Ill settle for average after the ridiculousness Ive seen the past few years. I mean, every WR is gonna drop a pass every once in a while, but this is just deviated..... EVERY YEAR.... The part that pisses me off about is Brown was a bit of a smart ass a couple weeks ago when someone asked him about it. He later corrected himself, but fans are tired of seeing the same fkn mistakes, errors, penalties, lack of execution, this team just did not show up tonight. It was a bad, a very bad look....

Ive been far more patient & understanding than most on here, and I know the Big12 is a very strong conference this year, BUT..... at this point in Browns tenure, we should be competitive in every game. I dont like it when we lose, but if its very close and due to a player ding something stupid, I get it.... But the times of being ok of being DOMINATED is OVER.....
 
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Volatility

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True. But it takes a special kind of QB to run RR style offense.
True, BUT..... that talent can be spread out in multiple body parts..... It doesnt All have to be in an arm.... Which is more rare and hard to recruit at WVU....

You can find a dual threat QB with A Legs and B arm, far easier than you can find an A+ Arm.... There may be 4-6 of those types of QBs in every class, and WVU may get one ever so often, I just think it diversifies the manner in which you can attack defenses and doesnt put the entire weight on a single body part of a single player...

Kansas's QB is a really good player, but imagine if the overall team talent around him was 2-3 notches better than what it is now..... They would be a CFP caliber team...
 
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OlegeezEER

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RR has been relegated to FCS status considering he's coaching Jacksonville.
RR had the opportunity to coach 3 power 5 schools and got a shot at coaching a blue blood. Things haven't worked out for him since he left wvu but you can't deny the results he had here. Holgorsen is on his 2nd job and his job status is already being questioned again. Its only a matter of time before he gets kicked to the curb. The guy is nothing but average. The teams that Rich put together embarrassed Blue Bloods in Bowl games. The teams Dana put together were embarrassed by low to mid level Acc and Pac 12 teams in bowl games. Rich may have been a prick but he is much better than Holgorsen.
 

ThePunish-EER

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RR had the opportunity to coach 3 power 5 schools and got a shot at coaching a blue blood. Things haven't worked out for him since he left wvu but you can't deny the results he had here. Holgorsen is on his 2nd job and his job status is already being questioned again. Its only a matter of time before he gets kicked to the curb. The guy is nothing but average. The teams that Rich put together embarrassed Blue Bloods in Bowl games. The teams Dana put together were embarrassed by low to mid level Acc and Pac 12 teams in bowl games. Rich may have been a prick but he is much better than Holgorsen.
Exactly. Dana is an elite OC, but only an Average HC
 
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OlegeezEER

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True, BUT..... that talent can be spread out in multiple body parts..... It doesnt All have to be in an arm.... Which is more rare and hard to recruit at WVU....

You can find a dual threat QB with A Legs and B arm, far easier than you can find an A+ Arm.... There may be 4-6 of those types of QBs in every class, and WVU may get one ever so often, I just think it diversifies the manner in which you can attack defenses and doesnt put the entire weight on a single body part of a single player...

Kansas's QB is a really good player, but imagine if the overall team talent around him was 2-3 notches better than what it is now..... They would be a CFP caliber team...
When you look at every wvu team that has had double digit win totals in football what stands out? They all had mobile qb's. You look at Bulger Grier and soon to be Daniels. They all made it onto an Nfl roster and I am assuming Daniel's will but none of them were able to elevate the wvu program. I don't blame any of these QB's for failing to do this they all put up impressive stats they just played in a system that isn't optimal for success at a school like wvu. Pat White came to wvu after decommitting from LSU. Lsu wanted him as a defensive back and Wvu convinced him to come and be a qb. Its much easier to find an elite runner than it is an elite passer. Your not always gonna have the guy that had the it factor like White but your probably gonna get a guy who can steal a win or two with his feet. I don't think wvu will ever get back to 2007 unless there is a philosophical change in how the qb is utilized
 

OlegeezEER

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Been SCREAMING this from the rooftops to anyone thatll listen for the past X Years.... Almost verbatim... Far easier for us to recruit, because we arent competing for the same kids in the same "traditional" pool...

Kansas has found the perfect combination of introducing enough of a balanced & diverse attack to eliminate predictability and keep opposing def honest.

Not just that, but Speed & Shiftiness are the two skillsets that will make a 5 star DB look stupid.... Its terribly difficult to scheme against, and when combined with creative schemes, and a "blue collar" mentality its very hard to beat.

Its the easiest path forward that will allow a non-blueblood to compete at a higher level... WVU will NEVER be able to consistently compete deploy the same concepts, same methods, which require the same types of players as programs who can outplay us in that recruiting pool and by a wide margin...

Once Lance has a few years to increase the overall team talent level, that team will be a real force.... Shit they are close now, with low 3 star players..... The ole "Yeah but kids wont wanna play there because they wont be drafted", which is BS, as the NFL has now adapted and willing to run unique schemes....

Its sad that use to be OUR BRAND...... But in all likelyhood, its probably to late to pursue, because those things cycle in and out of the game and by the time WVU would find the right staff, players, development, etc to deploy it, the game would have already caught up and Kansas would have already held that ticket...

At least, until it cycles down again.... As the leagues are copy-cat, so DC's will mitigate their deficiencies to it...

That doesnt mean we cant make it our own, and put our own spin on it.... While similar philosophically...

Our roster just isnt good enough to compete this year.... We are to damn young at to many positions, and while they may be talented, thats like playing & relying on Sam James when he was a freshmen.... Even tho they are talented, they should not be depended on for another couple years.

The sad part is this is the first loss of the year where WVU was soundly beat.... but because of that youth and inexperience playing together, or absolutely boneheaded mistakes, we are 2-3....

Texas just manhandled us at every phase.

Sam James should switch to DB..... I mean that with every ounce of my soul... He seems like a good kid, but my goodness, Ive never seen a team or a few players have as many drops as WVU the past 3 years.

They need to buy a tennis ball machine, buy about 20 Brown magic markers and paint every tennis ball brown, then have WR's catch brown tennis balls from the machine to help with hand&eye... In addition to the jugs machine.... If they are going to deploy an offense, that relies on and puts the game in WR hands, than those hands need to be consistent. At least not consistently ranked in the top of the league for drops... Ill settle for average after the ridiculousness Ive seen the past few years. I mean, every WR is gonna drop a pass every once in a while, but this is just deviated..... EVERY YEAR.... The part that pisses me off about is Brown was a bit of a smart ass a couple weeks ago when someone asked him about it. He later corrected himself, but fans are tired of seeing the same fkn mistakes, errors, penalties, lack of execution, this team just did not show up tonight. It was a bad, a very bad look....

Ive been far more patient & understanding than most on here, and I know the Big12 is a very strong conference this year, BUT..... at this point in Browns tenure, we should be competitive in every game. I dont like it when we lose, but if its very close and due to a player ding something stupid, I get it.... But the times of being ok of being DOMINATED is OVER.....
The sad thing about watching Kansas and this version of K State with Martinez is they're running the schemes that Brought wvu fame in the early and mid 2000's. This is what we should be doing. Now that someone is running it I'm sure others in the league will copy. Some version of this offense is what would be best for wvu. The offense doesn't require as much talent. You just need to recruit elite runners which isn't as hard as some might think. It also allows for greater flexibility than the more traditional offenses. Its easier to wear down opposing defenses. Conservative play calls in this offense can end up in explosive plays. The arguments I hear against the spread option is well we can't recruit as much nfl talent blah blah blah. The problem with that argument is we are never going to be able to recruit enough NFL talent to consistently win in a conventional offense. We will never be able to go head to head with a blue blood and beat them on talent. But what we might be able to do is out smart them and out scheme them and that's what spread option type offenses can do for schools like wvu.
 

OlegeezEER

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Exactly. Dana is an elite OC, but only an Average HC
I spend most of the fall and winter in AZ. I know quite a few AZ alumni who feel Rich was poised to have a big year If he hadn't been fired. He was replaced By Sumlin who installed a stupid Air Raid system that flopped. Holgorsen worked under Sumlin at Houston. I think a good many of the accusations that got RR fired turned out to be unfounded. They always told us in school that your innocent until proven guilty but it never plays out that way in the media especially these days.

 
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GetYaNumbersUp

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RR had the opportunity to coach 3 power 5 schools and got a shot at coaching a blue blood. Things haven't worked out for him since he left wvu but you can't deny the results he had here. Holgorsen is on his 2nd job and his job status is already being questioned again. Its only a matter of time before he gets kicked to the curb. The guy is nothing but average. The teams that Rich put together embarrassed Blue Bloods in Bowl games. The teams Dana put together were embarrassed by low to mid level Acc and Pac 12 teams in bowl games. Rich may have been a prick but he is much better than Holgorsen.
I mean Dana and Rich have the exact same winning percentage throughout their careers (58%), both have exactly 1 BCS bowl win and a losing bowl record...Their careers are pretty similar one is just a bit older.

Bottom line is Rich and has teams haven't been relevant in 15 years. His style of play is no longer unique and he has plenty of "character" concerns.

If we want to run a spread option offense, there's plenty of coaching to choose from rather than dusting off a washed up Rich Rodriguez.

I'd gladly take Rich (or Dana) over Neal, but hopefully we can get a younger coach ready to prove himself rather than someone in the twilight of their career.
 
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WVUALLEN

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You mean FBS, as FCS is still D1
Currently a member of the ASUN Conference, JSU will transition all sports into C-USA in the summer of 2023, with the biggest change coming for the Gamecock football program. With the new conference home, JSU will make the jump to the Football Bowl Subdivision (FBS), the highest level of college football.

Next
 

Tylerite

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Currently a member of the ASUN Conference, JSU will transition all sports into C-USA in the summer of 2023, with the biggest change coming for the Gamecock football program. With the new conference home, JSU will make the jump to the Football Bowl Subdivision (FBS), the highest level of college football.

Next
And your point is?
 

Tylerite

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FCS is nowhere near the level of FBS. Don't give a shit if they say D-1 or not.
We’ll I’m sorry how you feel, but it’s still true nonetheless.
Now even though officially there is no distinction by the NCAA, the FBS is broken down by Power5 and Groupof5, which the G5 is also nowhere near the level of the P5. So there you can give a crap.