muslims throw 12 Christians overboard on boat trip to Italy. Looks like

[orlando eer]

time for another harique from 0 about Christians being responsible for the Crusades and their not being real Christians because they do not support his Leftist policies. Of course Muslims go not count as Muslims when they committ atrocities. That part of his foreign policy is a constant.

d

This post was edited on 4/18 9:18 PM by orlando eer

 

[KTeer]

. I watch a video floating around the internet of a speech he made in 1995 about "Dreams of my Father". IMO, it is clear from the speech and the passage he read his intent is to make all whites pay for decades old racial prejudice and insults. He is bitter about his experience growing up as a biracial child raised by white grand parents. Frank Marshall had a horrendous negative impact on him.
If you listen to him there has been no racial progress in the U.S. He really has psychological problems.

 

[MountainBill]

The Crusades were a RESPONSE to the slaughter that proceeded


it by the Islamists...led by Mohammed. I guess that part of the history is just superfluous information as far as the righteous left is concerned.

 

[WhiteTailEER]

As an atheist, these things seem particularly stupid

It's supposed to even be the same God, just a different way of worshipping Him.

It's insane.

 

[MountainBill]

"The religion of peace"? You don't say....

 

[Popeer]

The Crusades were a RESPONSE to the slaughter that proceeded
it by the Islamists...led by Mohammed. I guess that part of the history is just superfluous information as far as the righteous left is concerned.

Where do you get your history? After the Orthodox patriarch surrendered Jerusalem to the Caliph in 637 Jews were allowed to practice their religion there openly for the first time in 600 years. It was the Byzantines, not the Muslims, who persecuted the Jews of Palestine.

 

[eerfan58]

Where do you get your history? After the Orthodox patriarch surrendered Jerusalem to the Caliph in 637 Jews were allowed to practice their religion there openly for the first time in 600 years. It was the Byzantines, not the Muslims, who persecuted the Jews of Palestine.

Your response in no way contradicts his statement. In fact, it supports it. "surrendered Jerusalem" seems to imply that it was taken by force.

 

[Wolf J. Flywheel]

As an atheist, these things seem particularly stupid

It's supposed to even be the same God, just a different way of worshipping Him.

It's insane.

How is it the same?

No relationship with Christ = swing & miss.

As an Atheist you are free to dispute that. That is your right and I will always respect that. But it's not the same God nor have gods been multiple in REALITY. I could care less what mythology conned people into believing ......... no offense to those here who believe in Zeus, Poseidon, or Xenu.

 

[WhiteTailEER]

How is it the same?

No relationship with Christ = swing & miss.

As an Atheist you are free to dispute that. That is your right and I will always respect that. But it's not the same God nor have gods been multiple in REALITY. I could care less what mythology conned people into believing ......... no offense to those here who believe in Zeus, Poseidon, or Xenu.

Jesus isn't God, He is/was the son of God. I understand the "nobody gets to the Father except through me" teachings and this belief by Christians. However, God, the Father, is supposedly the same guy (or whatever He is) for Christians, Jews and Muslims. Islam recognizes Jesus as a prophet, but not as the son of God. But the God is the same.

The Xenu reference cracked me up.

As an Atheist, I don't think that God even exists obviously, so it seems particularly silly all the conflict and strife over the different ways to worship something that isn't even there. (just my belief, I respect the belief's of others that disagree with me, which is the vast majority of people on the planet)

___________________________________

"To be a Muslim in essence means privately and publicly believing in the one, divine, transcendent, omnipotent God, Allah in Arabic. Interestingly, the root of this Arabic word for God is identical to the root of the Jewish word for God. "

"Connected with that faith in the one God is a belief that Muhammad is God's messenger. This prophet is neither the founder of the Muslim religion nor a divine individual. Rather, he is the last of God's many messengers to this world that include Abraham, Moses and Jesus."

"
Followers of Christ accept this teaching of the Hebrew Scriptures and have faith in the one true God. Trinitarian Christians, however, also believe in Jesus' teaching about God the Father, Son and Holy Spirit. That central mystery of the Trinity is problematic for Jewish and Muslim people.
Nevertheless, despite such a significant difference, Christian, Jewish and Muslim believers should be very comfortable together discussing and worshiping the one God they hold in common.

"
"I am who am," God says to Moses, "the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, the God of Jacob" (Exodus 3:14-15). "

 

[Wolf J. Flywheel]

"As an Atheist, I don't think that God even exists obviously, so it seems particularly silly all the conflict and strife over the different ways to worship something that isn't even there. (just my belief, I respect the belief's of others that disagree with me, which is the vast majority of people on the planet)"

Uhhhhhh .......... you think Islam and the Bible's word of God are even remotely the same? The same God? You're as lost as a ball in tall grass.

Compare the teachings of Jesus to the teachings of Mohammad and get back with me on the results. One taught love, personal sacrifice, and forgiveness ..... the other taught the exact opposite. Same God? And the fact Islam references Jesus means nothing. In fact, it is a blasphemous reference because they transform Jesus into a destroyer with the same evil of Mohammad. They pervert who Christ was and I would think since you voluntarily referenced John 14:6 that you'd understand the ramifications of the verse and what it is so pertinent as it pertains to this point you attempted to make. Clearly you don't.

It's all the same God just different ways? Nothing could be further from the truth and kudos on believing the lie.

 

[mule_eer]

The word of God in the OT and in the NT have some notable differences also, yet there is no dispute that the God of Christianity and the God of Judaism is the same entity. The teachings, i.e. the accepted scripture, is different. Shoot, even some folks who are in different sects of the same religion have vastly different interpretations of the same texts.

In short, Jews, Christians, and Muslims all worship the same God. What constitutes worship, accepted prophets and texts, are what separates them.

 

[Wolf J. Flywheel]

I guess the supreme chastisement the Jews have received over the years and will continue to as all countries align against them (Gee, that sure does not sound like today's times, does it?) has nothing to do with the fact that "He came unto his own, and his own received him not." still resonates to this day.

Mere coincidence, huh?

Fact is, you either have Jesus or you have the other choice that leads nowhere. The Jew's "God" is only accessible through Jesus (not the best news report for the overwhelming majority of Jews), the same with the "Christians", and the same with everybody else. You speak of Ecumenialism and I hate to break this to you, but claims that "they all worship the same God" rings exceedingly hollow when they don't all accept Christ ......... and I have no idea what bizarro Bible you dabble with but Jesus is a requirement to meet the father.

So, no ....... it's not the "same God" unless Jesus is savior and guess what ...... he's not for the overwhelming majority of all these sects you reference.

"I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me."

If you want to argue with John 14:6 ....... hey, have at it. That's your dilemma. Not mine.

 

[TarHeelEer]

Jesus isn't God, He is/was the son of God.

That's not what Christianity teaches me. Christianity teaches a Triune God, God the Father, God the Son, God the Holy Spirit, One God, three Persons. Difficult concept. "Jesus isn't God" is incorrect according to Christianity.

I personally believe that Muslims are not worshiping the same god. Others will disagree with me.

 

[TarHeelEer]

The word of God in the OT and in the NT have some notable differences

What notable differences do you mean?

 

[Wolf J. Flywheel]

That's not what Christianity teaches me. Christianity teaches a Triune God, God the Father, God the Son, God the Holy Spirit, One God, three Persons. Difficult concept. "Jesus isn't God" is incorrect according to Christianity.

I personally believe that Muslims are not worshiping the same god. Others will disagree with me.

Jesus answered: “Don’t you know me, Philip, even after I have been among you such a long time? Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, ‘Show us the Father’?

People continuously seek ways to circumvent the unavoidable fact that Christ was God in the flesh AND there are no other ways to the father but through Jesus.

 

[WhiteTailEER]

"You're as lost as a ball in tall grass.

Somebody in this thread is lost, but it isn't me.

You seem to be confused between the teachings and practices of a religion and the God it worships.

John 3:16
For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.

 

[Wolf J. Flywheel]

Somebody in this thread is lost, but it isn't me.

You seem to be confused between the teachings and practices of a religion and the God it worships.

John 3:16
For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.

No, you are saying the 3 major religions are all worshipping the same God. How can they be worshipping the same God when the Bible (Christianity) is the ONLY dogma that reveals that Jesus was God encompassed AND the son is the only way to the father.

Please name me the other ideology that proclaims that. Please show me.

Does Islam?

No ...... and for that reason it cannot be the same God.

Does Judaism?

No ...... and for that reason it cannot be the same God.

Accepting Christ is the only path to the father. That seems to make it infinitely impossible people are worshipping the same God when they refuse to ACKNOWLEDGE God when he revealed himself and his very nature.

Good grief, can you be any more obtuse? Your argument is saying a banana is a actually a vidalia onion. Same God ..... LOL!!!! ........ not even close ..... and it all stems from their rejection of Jesus ..... a rejection of God himself.

 

[WhiteTailEER]

Good grief, can you be any more obtuse? Your argument is saying a banana is a actually a vidalia onion. Same God

Did Jesus create the heavens and the Earth? That's the God that they have in common.

Talk about obtuse.

And you keep referencing that accepting Christ is the only path to the Father ... who is that Father?

 

[Wolf J. Flywheel]

Did Jesus create the heavens and the Earth? That's the God that they have in common.

Talk about obtuse.

And you keep referencing that accepting Christ is the only path to the Father ... who is that Father?

Explain something to me ........... how do you worship a God that you reject?

I'd like to hear how that works.

 

[WhiteTailEER]

Explain something to me ........... how do you worship a God that you reject?

I'd like to hear how that works.

They reject Jesus as God, but they don't reject the God that created the heavens and the Earth. They recognize Jesus as a prophet, not the son of God. "the Father" is the God they worship.

 

[Wolf J. Flywheel]

They reject Jesus as God, but they don't reject the God that created the heavens and the Earth. They recognize Jesus as a prophet, not the son of God. "the Father" is the God they worship.

Now I see why you are an Atheist. You need to stick to that because you are a helluva lot better at it.

With Christ being the only way then how do all those who reject God worship him? Cue John Kerry's "I voted for it before I voted against it."

Very specifically, if you fail to acknowledge Jesus as God then you worship nothing more than gods of the dead. In other words per scripture, you do not acknowledge God. I have never in my life heard of how a person could worship something they fail to even acknowledge. Kinda tough to do.

Yeah, kinda.

 

[TarHeelEer]

John 3:16
For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.

That doesn't change that it is one God in three Persons.

 

[Wolf J. Flywheel]

They reject Jesus as God, but they don't reject the God that created the heavens and the Earth. They recognize Jesus as a prophet, not the son of God. "the Father" is the God they worship.

You clear are ignopra

That doesn't change that it is one God in three Persons.

I think it's safe to say he's never been baptized.

Maybe this will clear things up a tad.

"And when Jesus was baptized, he went up immediately from the water, and behold, the heavens were opened and he saw the spirit of God descending like a dove, and alighting on him; and lo, a voice from heaven, saying, 'This is my beloved Son, with whom I am well pleased.'"[Mt 3:16–17]

This is why Baptism is highlighted by the Trinitarian formula, "In the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit".

Once again ..... for the 3rd time .... the Jews and Muslims (as well as countless others), reject Christ. By doing so, they reject the Father and the Holy Spirit. You cannot worship something you cannot even acknowledge as the Alpha and sustainer. Throwing down a prayer rug and facing Mecca on your knees is not worshipping God any more than an Atheist worships God or those at the Wailing Wall worship God.

Why?

They reject Jesus, they reject God, and they reject the propitiation. It is a physical and spiritual impossibility to worship something you reject as truth.

 

[WhiteTailEER]

That doesn't change that it is one God in three Persons.

I have never in my life heard of how a person could worship something they fail to even acknowledge. Kinda tough to do.

Who created the Heavens and the Earth?

There was a God long before there was Jesus. This is the God the 3 have in common.

 

[TarHeelEer]

Who created the Heavens and the Earth?

There was a God long before there was Jesus. This is the God the 3 have in common.

Then God said, “Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness; "

 

[WhiteTailEER]

Then God said, “Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness; "

26 Then God said, “Let us make man in our image, after our likeness. And let them have dominion over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the heavens and over the livestock and over all the earth and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth.” 27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them. 28 And God blessed them. And God said to them, “Be fruitful and multiply and fill the earth and subdue it and have dominion over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the heavens and over every living thing that moves on the earth.” 29 And God said, “Behold, I have given you every plant yielding seed that is on the face of all the earth, and every tree with seed in its fruit. You shall have them for food. 30 And to every beast of the earth and to every bird of the heavens and to everything that creeps on the earth, everything that has the breath of life, I have given every green plant for food.” And it was so. 31 And God saw everything that he had made, and behold, it was very good. And there was evening and there was morning, the sixth day.

 

[TarHeelEer]

26 Then God said, “Let us make man in our image, after our likeness. And let them have dominion over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the heavens and over the livestock and over all the earth and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth.” 27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them. 28 And God blessed them. And God said to them, “Be fruitful and multiply and fill the earth and subdue it and have dominion over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the heavens and over every living thing that moves on the earth.” 29 And God said, “Behold, I have given you every plant yielding seed that is on the face of all the earth, and every tree with seed in its fruit. You shall have them for food. 30 And to every beast of the earth and to every bird of the heavens and to everything that creeps on the earth, everything that has the breath of life, I have given every green plant for food.” And it was so. 31 And God saw everything that he had made, and behold, it was very good. And there was evening and there was morning, the sixth day.

You can pick out whatever you like to dispute it, but it doesn't change Christianity's teachings. It isn't what you depict.

My next step would be to go through each book and show you the pictures of Jesus, or Jesus Himself making appearances in the Old Testament (THE Angel of God), but I don't have the time nor desire to do so.

 

[WhiteTailEER]

You can pick out whatever you like to dispute it, but it doesn't change Christianity's teachings. It isn't what you depict.

My next step would be to go through each book and show you the pictures of Jesus, or Jesus Himself making appearances in the Old Testament (THE Angel of God), but I don't have the time nor desire to do so.

I know Christianity's teachings ... what I'm saying is that this old testament God is common between the 3.

Does the OT specifically reference Jesus? You are making the assumption that THE Angel of God is Jesus because that's your belief, but it doesn't specifically say that.

Yours and Wolf's entire argument is predicated on the assumption that Christianity is "right". If it's not, that Angel of God could be something else entirely.

Since the "us" only shows up a couple of times and everything else references God creating everything alone, would that plural interpretation simply be a missed translation?

 

[TarHeelEer]

I know Christianity's teachings ... what I'm saying is that this old testament God is common between the 3.

Does the OT specifically reference Jesus? You are making the assumption that THE Angel of God is Jesus because that's your belief, but it doesn't specifically say that.

Yours and Wolf's entire argument is predicated on the assumption that Christianity is "right". If it's not, that Angel of God could be something else entirely.

Since the "us" only shows up a couple of times and everything else references God creating everything alone, would that plural interpretation simply be a missed translation?

Very doubtful that it was error. Scribes from olden days rarely messed up. They took their time. And if an error was created from one copy, comparing it to other's usually removes the error... unless one of your first copies was messed up.

I haven't researched the evolution of the Old Testament scrolls, but the New Testament scrolls are overall 99.5% accurate in all of their known iterations, which numbers in the... 50'000's? I can't remember. Accuracy was considered more desirable than speed.

Logically I can say Christianity is right. Jesus is the atonement for our sins. The Old Testament taught us that a blood sacrifice is required. Temporarily animal sacrifices were used by the Jews, but this wasn't true atonement. Problem is, we can't atone for our own sins, let alone someone else's. If Jesus were merely man, the sacrifice is too small. If an angel... again, too small. It had to be a perfect Being to be the sacrifice. It had to be God.

 

[WhiteTailEER]

Very doubtful that it was error.

Logically I can say Christianity is right. Jesus is the atonement for our sins. The Old Testament taught us that a blood sacrifice is required. It had to be a perfect Being to be the sacrifice. It had to be God.

I agree that it's doubtful that it was an error ... but, the plural is used there and practically noplace else. So, it's at least interesting as a discussion point. And depending on what you believe the Earth was here thousands or millions of years before Jesus appeared. Again, that God is the one that's common.

The rest. Yes, logically speaking I would agree with you.

When Wolf and others attempt to make personal insults, it becomes hard to have this discussion/disagreement without denigrating the beliefs that you guys espouse. Obviously I don't believe in any of it, but I at least try to remain respectful about it.

I do appreciate your approach to the discussion. It provides interesting points and insight.

 

[TarHeelEer]

I do appreciate your approach to the discussion. It provides interesting points and insight.

I teach youth every week and preach on occasion. My approach is to make me small, and God big. Like the Bible tells me to.

 

[AirForceer]

Jesus isn't God, He is/was the son of God. I understand the "nobody gets to the Father except through me" teachings and this belief by Christians. However, God, the Father, is supposedly the same guy (or whatever He is) for Christians, Jews and Muslims. Islam recognizes Jesus as a prophet, but not as the son of God. But the God is the same.

The Xenu reference cracked me up.

As an Atheist, I don't think that God even exists obviously, so it seems particularly silly all the conflict and strife over the different ways to worship something that isn't even there. (just my belief, I respect the belief's of others that disagree with me, which is the vast majority of people on the planet)

___________________________________

"To be a Muslim in essence means privately and publicly believing in the one, divine, transcendent, omnipotent God, Allah in Arabic. Interestingly, the root of this Arabic word for God is identical to the root of the Jewish word for God. "

"Connected with that faith in the one God is a belief that Muhammad is God's messenger. This prophet is neither the founder of the Muslim religion nor a divine individual. Rather, he is the last of God's many messengers to this world that include Abraham, Moses and Jesus."

"
Followers of Christ accept this teaching of the Hebrew Scriptures and have faith in the one true God. Trinitarian Christians, however, also believe in Jesus' teaching about God the Father, Son and Holy Spirit. That central mystery of the Trinity is problematic for Jewish and Muslim people.
Nevertheless, despite such a significant difference, Christian, Jewish and Muslim believers should be very comfortable together discussing and worshiping the one God they hold in common.

"
"I am who am," God says to Moses, "the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, the God of Jacob" (Exodus 3:14-15). "

To help you understand the trinity read John 1:14 and substitute GOD where is reads WORD.

The Word (GOD) became flesh (JESUS) and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the one and only Son, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth.

There is many more references in the bible, but this is one of the ones I like.

 

[WhiteTailEER]

To help you understand the trinity read John 1:14 and substitute GOD where is reads WORD.

The Word (GOD) became flesh (JESUS) and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the one and only Son, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth.

There is many more references in the bible, but this is one of the ones I like.

Thank you for that reference. I understand the trinity, but clearly am not articulating my point very well. There are enough secular references to Jesus that it can't be argued he never existed, where the religions differ is whether or not Jesus is God or son of God.

Maybe I'm thinking of things too linearly or chronologically when trying to say what I'm trying to say. In the quote above, there was God before there was Jesus. "The word became flesh", "the one and only Son, who came from the Father". So, if you think about the God that begat Jesus, that God is common between the 3 religions.

Now, others' points are that if the Muslims (and Jews) don't believe that Jesus was the son of God, or God in the flesh then they don't believe in the same God at all. Jesus came from that OT God, and that OT God is common, i.e. the 3 religions at least originate from the belief in that God. Contrast that to the Hindu's or Buddhists or any other religion that we are aware of.

 

[AirForceer]

Thank you for that reference. I understand the trinity, but clearly am not articulating my point very well. There are enough secular references to Jesus that it can't be argued he never existed, where the religions differ is whether or not Jesus is God or son of God.

Maybe I'm thinking of things too linearly or chronologically when trying to say what I'm trying to say. In the quote above, there was God before there was Jesus. "The word became flesh", "the one and only Son, who came from the Father". So, if you think about the God that begat Jesus, that God is common between the 3 religions.

Now, others' points are that if the Muslims (and Jews) don't believe that Jesus was the son of God, or God in the flesh then they don't believe in the same God at all. Jesus came from that OT God, and that OT God is common, i.e. the 3 religions at least originate from the belief in that God. Contrast that to the Hindu's or Buddhists or any other religion that we are aware of.

If want to read a good article about this issue go to the link.

http://www.answering-islam.org/Shamoun/god.htm

 

[WhiteTailEER]

If want to read a good article about this issue go to the link.

http://www.answering-islam.org/Shamoun/god.htm

Thanks for the link