Isn't this reason enough to expand...

[Rootmaster]

The Big 12 distributed $252 million in revenue last May, which was a league record. However, that pales in comparison to what the SEC ($527.4 million) and Big Ten ($448.8 million) distributed.

And these numbers reflect media impact and media dollars as a result.

The Big 12-2=10 suffers from SMS (Small Market Syndrome) and needs to add a minimum of two or four major markets now or risk becoming the expendable one in the ESPN and Fox stable.

 

[Monroeer]

....leading to a payout of $32.7 million for each of the SEC's 14 universities.....
.....The Big Ten paid its 11 longstanding members about $32.4 million each......
.....Pac-12 ($25.1 million) and Big 12 ($23.3 million)......
(http://sports.yahoo.com/news/big-te...vbG8DYmYxBHBvcwMxBHZ0aWQDQjIwNDRfMQRzZWMDc2M-)

But on the other hand -

...Both the SEC and Big Ten figures include third-tier rights money, while the Big 12 schools handle their own. For instance, West Virginia was scheduled to receive about $6.6 million from its IMG deal this year....

Add that to our regular payout and in conclusion - it is not near as big of a difference as you and others are trying to make it seem to be. Obviously a school like Texas with their third-tier rights money added to their B12 payout will exceed the payouts of those listed above.

 

[michaelwalkerbr]

....leading to a payout of $32.7 million for each of the SEC's 14 universities.....
.....The Big Ten paid its 11 longstanding members about $32.4 million each......
.....Pac-12 ($25.1 million) and Big 12 ($23.3 million)......
(http://sports.yahoo.com/news/big-te...vbG8DYmYxBHBvcwMxBHZ0aWQDQjIwNDRfMQRzZWMDc2M-)

But on the other hand -

...Both the SEC and Big Ten figures include third-tier rights money, while the Big 12 schools handle their own. For instance, West Virginia was scheduled to receive about $6.6 million from its IMG deal this year....

Add that to our regular payout and in conclusion - it is not near as big of a difference as you and others are trying to make it seem to be. Obviously a school like Texas with their third-tier rights money added to their B12 payout will exceed the payouts of those listed above.

It's also about the size of the conference footprint itself. Right now it is very Texas centric and includes exposure to about 35 million people. That limits the conference in several ways. Potential broadcast income, recruiting and exposure of the B12 product to the rest of the nation. Ohio would add a significant portion of 11.5 million people and Florida over 20 million. That nearly doubles the size of the conference in potential viewers. Obviously not everyone in Texas is a B12 fan, nor will they be in any new states.

There is a lot involved in the results of the expansion studies and I trust in the presidents and chancellors of the member institutions to take their time and do whatever is best for the conference. There is a lot of speculation and predictions among fans both ways. We will see the basic results of very comprehensive studies in a matter of weeks. The future of the conference can either be strengthened or weakened with change. But questions regarding expansion, a CCG and possible B12 network have to be explored and resolved.

 

[Monroeer]

My post is not about being for or against expansion - I really don't have an opinion on that because I am not sure how much better (or worse) expansion will do for the B12 with the likely candidates that are available. I'll let the committee figure that out with the information that they have been collecting.

I only posted because there have been a lot of misinformation being dramatized about the difference in payouts of the P5 conferences - to the point that ESPN and others like to post numbers about the amounts without bothering to break the money down to what each team actually gets.

By posting total money numbers for the conferences without elaborating on the fact that the B12 cuts it's pie with fewer members (hence bigger slices of pie per member) and without that darn fact about B12 members getting additional Third-Tier monies while the B10, SEC, ACC doesn't, they tend to skew the differences in a way that sounds major - when it is not.

Once this has been compared more on an apples to apples level, suddenly the B12 is very close to the upper two and quite a bit ahead of the ESPN stepchildren (ACC). But then, that wouldn't fit their agenda of supporting their conferences though.

 

[Buckaineer]

Although rights and licensing is also a bit of a decieving look at things, because things like signage and Nike deals, radio deals and beverage deals are included in those matters, a look at rights and licensing shows that the BIG 12 needs to find a way to boost revenues. The conference is very close to the Pac and really only ahead of the ACC in total rights licensing--and that is only some schools, not all.

Here are the latest numbers from USA for everyone's rights and licensing agreements (private school numbers not listed for any conference) and as is visible from the list, the BIG 12 needs to gain more revenues. The Big Ten's are about to go up even more:

school rights/licensing revenues

1 Texas $62,860,081
2 Michigan $58,080,032
3 Ohio State $57,144,221
4 Alabama $56,574,002
5 Kentucky $56,285,185
6 Florida $55,527,482
7 OU $54,750,980
8 Tennessee $54,496,151
9 Wisconsin $54,364,325
10 LSU $49,867,113

11 Georgia $49,842,044
12 Arkansas $49,755,396
13 FSU $49,576,951
14 PSU $48,596,811
15 MSU $48,173,291
16 Maryland $47,325,265
17 Minnesota $47,260,472
18 A&M $47,023,255
18 Auburn $46,317,251
20 Indiana $46,251,896

21 Washington $45,870,090
22 Iowa $45,114,329
23 Illinois $43,215,144
24 Purdue $43,074,547
25 UCLA $42,457,964
26 Oregon $42,170,326
27 Missouri $42,095,455
28 South Carolina $41,129,812
29 Nebraska $40,746,990
30 Miss State $40,267,330

31 Ole Miss $39,487,822
32 Kansas $38,341,131
33 AZ State $38,018,921
34 Arizona $37,203,848
35 NC State $36,591,714
36 Texas Tech $36,491,370
37 OSU $36,165,660
38 California $35,894,932
39 West Virginia $35,857,157
40 UNC $35,278,904

41 VT $34,984,991
42 Clemson $34,738,786
43 Kansas State $34,482,713
44 Ore State $34,235,884
45 Iowa State $34,126,584
46 GT $33,663,030
47 UVA $33,013,532
48 Louisville $32,739,935
49 Wazzou $30,798,983
50 Colorado $30,601,797

51 Utah $29,664,437
52 Rutgers $20,268,745

 

[Buckaineer]

The BIG 12 comes in third in rights licensing as a conference--the problem is that OU/UT numbers skew the results, as do FSU numbers for the ACC.

Here's how the BIG 12 stacks up in rights/licensing as a CONFERENCE

SEC
school rights/lic
Alabama $56,574,002
Kentucky $56,285,185
Florida $55,527,482
Tennessee $54,496,151
LSU $49,867,113
Georgia $49,842,044
Arkansas $49,755,396
A&M $47,023,255
Auburn $46,317,251
Missouri $42,095,455
South Carolina $41,129,812
Miss State $40,267,330
Ole Miss $39,487,822
Total $48,359,100

Big Ten
school rights/lic
Michigan $58,080,032
Ohio State $57,144,221
Wisconsin $54,364,325
PSU $48,596,811
MSU $48,173,291
Maryland $47,325,265
Minnesota $47,260,472
Indiana $46,251,896
Iowa $45,114,329
Illinois $43,215,144
Purdue $43,074,547
Nebraska $40,746,990
Rutgers $20,268,745
Total $46,124,313

BIG 12
school rights/lic
Texas $62,860,081
OU $54,750,980
Kansas $38,341,131
Texas Tech $36,491,370
OSU $36,165,660
West Virginia $35,857,157
Kansas State $34,482,713
Iowa State $34,126,584
Total $41,634,460

Pac 12
school rights/lic
Washington $45,870,090
UCLA $42,457,964
Oregon $42,170,326
AZ State $38,018,921
Arizona $37,203,848
California $35,894,932
Ore State $34,235,884
Wazzou $30,798,983
Colorado $30,601,797
Utah $29,664,437
Total $36,691,718


ACC
school rights/lic
FSU $49,576,951
NC State $36,591,714
UNC $35,278,904
VT $34,984,991
Clemson $34,738,786
GT $33,663,030
UVA $33,013,532
Louisville $32,739,935
Total $36,323,480

 

[Cuyahoga Falls Eers]

According to Forbes, the Big 12 is 4th in money distributed to each school at $25.3 million. When you factor in 3rd tier rights, including for WVU, it comes out to 30K +


The ACC is at the bottom, at $22.1 million, despite a ton of members and conference title game. So much for that advantage.


Pac-12 is 3rd at $25.5 million, but again the Big 12 does better when you factor in 3rd tier rights.

Big 10 gets $27.6 million, again in Big 12 ballpark with 3rd tier rights.

SEC is #1 at $34 million. I don’t think anyone would say that any conference is as solid financially as the SEC, even if the name isn’t Big 12.

So why so much hue and cry about the Big 12 finances? The pity seems more realistic for the ACC. Even the Pac-12 is not floating on a sea of money, comparatively. Big 10 isn’t all that much better off, and it has to live with having Iowa in a title game because the Hawkeyes didn’t play Ohio State, Michigan or Michigan State.

Reality is a bear, isn’t it?

 

[Buckaineer]

Revenues are a problem in the BIG 12 because the schools in the conference want to remain in the top tier of competitive schools.

You may be ok with being $20 million behind Indiana, Purdue, Vanderbilt and Kentucky, but Texas and Oklahoma and others are not going to accept that. Who knows, maybe FSU, Clemson, VT and others in the ACC do-they certainly haven't seemed to care before, instead bowing to fantasies about the differences not being what they are.

You can't stop others from coveting your schools and if they can offer more revenues then many schools are going to have problems down the road as the haves split off from the have nots. Don't know about you but don't want to see the effect of that on WVU in 10 or less years.

 

[Cuyahoga Falls Eers]

Revenues are a problem in the BIG 12 because the schools in the conference want to remain in the top tier of competitive schools.

You may be ok with being $20 million behind Indiana, Purdue, Vanderbilt and Kentucky, but Texas and Oklahoma and others are not going to accept that. Who knows, maybe FSU, Clemson, VT and others in the ACC do-they certainly haven't seemed to care before, instead bowing to fantasies about the differences not being what they are.

You can't stop others from coveting your schools and if they can offer more revenues then many schools are going to have problems down the road as the haves split off from the have nots. Don't know about you but don't want to see the effect of that on WVU in 10 or less years.

WVU is NOT "$20 million behind Indiana, Purdue, Vanderbilt and Kentucky." Which kind of shoots down your argument. Are you saying that those schools get $50 million a year apiece? Since WVU gets $30 million, that would be the math. Specious argument. False information. Ramshack theories.

 

[Buckaineer]

WVU is NOT "$20 million behind Indiana, Purdue, Vanderbilt and Kentucky." Which kind of shoots down your argument. Are you saying that those schools get $50 million a year apiece? Since WVU gets $30 million, that would be the math. Specious argument. False information. Ramshack theories.

The BIG 12 commissioner and AD Lyons have commented that the BIG 12 is going to fall behind the Big Ten and SEC by $20 million apiece within 12 years if they do not do something--which is why Oklahoma's president is trying to get comprehensive improvements in the form of a conference network, expansion and a CCG. Those things will allow the conference to get back in line with the other conferences (b10 and SEC) financially long term.

None of this is about today--but even today the BIG 12 is behind the Big Ten and SEC.

 

[Buckaineer]

WVU AD Lyons:
excerpt from Statewide Sportsline interview:
"We’re viable now (BIG 12), but in five years, especially from a revenue standpoint, especially with the SEC and their network, the Big Ten and their network… are we going to continue to grow at the same pace as those two conferences and grow from a revenue standpoint?," said Lyons. "And I think the answer to that is probably not, not if we stay at ten."

 

[Buckaineer]

Commissioner Bowlsby:

Bowlsby summed it up this way when asked the financial gap between his league and the SEC, a number that currently stands at about $9 million per year in rights fee revenue.

“If we do nothing, 12 years from now, we'll be $20 million per school behind the SEC and the Big Ten,” he said.

That isn't going to be ok with Texas, or OU or other schools in the conference that can potentially get out. If on the other hand they expand, add a conference network and a CCG there is no reason to get out.

 

[Charleston Mountie]

According to Forbes, the Big 12 is 4th in money distributed to each school at $25.3 million. When you factor in 3rd tier rights, including for WVU, it comes out to 30K +


The ACC is at the bottom, at $22.1 million, despite a ton of members and conference title game. So much for that advantage.


Pac-12 is 3rd at $25.5 million, but again the Big 12 does better when you factor in 3rd tier rights.

Big 10 gets $27.6 million, again in Big 12 ballpark with 3rd tier rights.

SEC is #1 at $34 million. I don’t think anyone would say that any conference is as solid financially as the SEC, even if the name isn’t Big 12.

So why so much hue and cry about the Big 12 finances? The pity seems more realistic for the ACC. Even the Pac-12 is not floating on a sea of money, comparatively. Big 10 isn’t all that much better off, and it has to live with having Iowa in a title game because the Hawkeyes didn’t play Ohio State, Michigan or Michigan State.

Reality is a bear, isn’t it?

Nice work pulling this together and the data speaks for itself but you must also recognize this is a static moment from the 2015 payout for the 2014 year. These numbers are based on contracts that have been renegotiated in the case of the Big Ten and enhanced annually by the SEC. The Big-12 looked very good in this report but the gulf between them and the Big Ten and SEC is widening even as we speak and we will not see that report until the spring of 2017.

You also seem to denigrate the ACC because it has more members and a CCG to bring in extra money and still falls short of the Big-12. The dismissive implication is that the Big-12 would get no added bonus from the same choices - more members and a CCG. What you are not grasping here is that the ACC needs those two elements to offset the atrocious pay out they are contracted into.

The PAC-12 faltering in their media contracts is not news and the future looks dimmer yet for that conference as they cannot get a buyer for their program. This seems odd too when you consider there is no overlap with another conference on FOX Sports or ESPN. Seems no one thinks much of the viewing market in the Mountain and Pacific time zones.

The Big-12 contract is static and the SEC and Big Ten contracts are growing at a fast pace. I for one do not care what the ACC or Pac-12 numbers are as they do not matter in the Big-12 situation. Big-12 schools will make more than members from those conferences. The Pac-12 has hit a glass ceiling because none of the national broadcasters thinks they have anything worth selling and the ACC faces a double whammy:

An inept commissioner tying conferences finances to his sons livelihood

and

An overlap of the Big Ten in the north under FOX and overlap of the SEC in the south under ESPN. The ACC's only hope for a network is a Raycom bastardization something like the Pac-12 has done and we have all seen how well that has worked out for them.

 

[Buckaineer]

The BIG 12s tv contract is not "static"--like the SEC's or other conferences its based on an average that grows over the duration.

The full payouts are determined by an amount from that tv average combined with bowl, Sugar Bowl, playoff, NCAA payouts and then BIG 12 schools each get something for tier 3 tv deals.

This year the schools will get around the $30 million mark from everything from the conference and that will grow into the low $40 million payout by 2025 if they don't do anything.

 

[ThePunish-EER]

Nice work pulling this together and the data speaks for itself but you must also recognize this is a static moment from the 2015 payout for the 2014 year. These numbers are based on contracts that have been renegotiated in the case of the Big Ten and enhanced annually by the SEC. The Big-12 looked very good in this report but the gulf between them and the Big Ten and SEC is widening even as we speak and we will not see that report until the spring of 2017.

You also seem to denigrate the ACC because it has more members and a CCG to bring in extra money and still falls short of the Big-12. The dismissive implication is that the Big-12 would get no added bonus from the same choices - more members and a CCG. What you are not grasping here is that the ACC needs those two elements to offset the atrocious pay out they are contracted into.

The PAC-12 faltering in their media contracts is not news and the future looks dimmer yet for that conference as they cannot get a buyer for their program. This seems odd too when you consider there is no overlap with another conference on FOX Sports or ESPN. Seems no one thinks much of the viewing market in the Mountain and Pacific time zones.

The Big-12 contract is static and the SEC and Big Ten contracts are growing at a fast pace. I for one do not care what the ACC or Pac-12 numbers are as they do not matter in the Big-12 situation. Big-12 schools will make more than members from those conferences. The Pac-12 has hit a glass ceiling because none of the national broadcasters thinks they have anything worth selling and the ACC faces a double whammy:

An inept commissioner tying conferences finances to his sons livelihood

and

An overlap of the Big Ten in the north under FOX and overlap of the SEC in the south under ESPN. The ACC's only hope for a network is a Raycom bastardization something like the Pac-12 has done and we have all seen how well that has worked out for them.

It seems to me, the answer to Big 12 expansion targets should include the ACC and PAC12. If those conferences can't keep up, maybe the Big 12 needs to start thinking about a raid.

 

[Buckaineer]

It seems to me, the answer to Big 12 expansion targets should include the ACC and PAC12. If those conferences can't keep up, maybe the Big 12 needs to start thinking about a raid.

The Pac 12 has a grant of rights through 2024. The ACC has a grant of rights through 2027.

Those conferences also have buyout fees of $50 million or so per school.

You want those schools in the BIG 12--how exactly do you propose the BIG 12 attract any of those schools?

 

[Charleston Mountie]

The BIG 12s tv contract is not "static"--like the SEC's or other conferences its based on an average that grows over the duration.

The full payouts are determined by an amount from that tv average combined with bowl, Sugar Bowl, playoff, NCAA payouts and then BIG 12 schools each get something for tier 3 tv deals.

This year the schools will get around the $30 million mark from everything from the conference and that will grow into the low $40 million payout by 2025 if they don't do anything.

Of course there are "performance" increases, but the "base" is static and the base is what matters most.

 

[Charleston Mountie]

It seems to me, the answer to Big 12 expansion targets should include the ACC and PAC12. If those conferences can't keep up, maybe the Big 12 needs to start thinking about a raid.

This is the conundrum.

Conventional Wisdom says that the glacial trend is to a conference supported playoff system tying CCs to slots in the NCP playoff bowls. If that is correct, the current system allows for no more than 4 major conferences. Obviously there are those that resist this trend: Notre Dame who would be forced to earn its keep in the college football world; the SEC and to a lesser extent the Big Ten who day dream over getting 2 of the current slots in the play off and all of those G5 schools hoping to be Cinderella at least for one year.

But the trend is pretty hard to debate and the direction seems to be rather set as well. It may take many years but we are likely to see the eventual formation of 4 major conferences that feed their champions into a playoff that determines the final game. The problem in part of this is the Sports Writers and Media outlets. All of those polls wont matter one bit in this system since it is 100% based on performance; you win you move on, you lose, try again next year.

This puts the Big Ten and SEC on solid ground and they have made it to the island of stability. The Big-12, Pac-12 and ACC are scrambling on the deck of the sinking ship fighting over the last two seats in the life boat.

This board and others have debated this issue to the point of "ad nauseum". We are all sick of the subject, well 99.9% of us, but none of us can say how we will get to that time when there are only 4 conferences, much less say with any authority on who is going to be where when the dust settles.

Many hold opinions, feeling that they have struck gold and only their opinion is right and everyone else is stupid. We have 1 or 2 on this board and we also have a troll that visits on a regular basis, joining them to form a trio of nitwits. No one has the answer.

Conference realignment is not over but I do not think raids are in the future. I think it is going to be more like the Maryland/Rutgers movement. Universities will become dissatisfied with their current conference and leave in spite of any cost - including challenging a GoR in court, to make their move.

 

[Buckaineer]

Of course there are "performance" increases, but the "base" is static and the base is what matters most.

No the base grows each of the 13 years of the tv contracts w/ FOX and ESPN ending in 2025. Its a $20 million per school average that started under $20 million, hits $20 mil per school at the median, and ends above $20 million per school in 2025.

That is regardless of anything including performance. Everyone's tv contract works that way.

After that the BIG 12 adds all the other revenues they get. Bowls (renogotiated in 2019), the Sugar Bowl ($40 mil per year except when its a playoff), NCAA revenues (changes every year, right now at $19 million), and playoff money per conference -not for participation in it ($51 million every year). On top of that the BIG 12 schools each get some tier 3 revenues for televised or otherwise "broadcast" games such as 1 football and several basketball games.

 

[Charleston Mountie]

No the base grows each of the 13 years of the tv contracts w/ FOX and ESPN ending in 2025. Its a $20 million per school average that started under $20 million, hits $20 mil per school at the median, and ends above $20 million per school in 2025.

That is regardless of anything including performance. Everyone's tv contract works that way.

After that the BIG 12 adds all the other revenues they get. Bowls (renogotiated in 2019), the Sugar Bowl ($40 mil per year except when its a playoff), NCAA revenues (changes every year, right now at $19 million), and playoff money per conference -not for participation in it ($51 million every year). On top of that the BIG 12 schools each get some tier 3 revenues for televised or otherwise "broadcast" games such as 1 football and several basketball games.

I think you are being too technical on this. The contract goes up each year to maintain the buying parity of the first year of the contract, nothing more. Those single digit increases are not an increase in the base , and here is the big stickler for everyone: NO ONE, outside of a few chosen people have seen the media contract. You can FOIA the documents and all you will get is the Appendage where everyone has signed but none of the details.

 

[topdecktiger]

No the base grows each of the 13 years of the tv contracts w/ FOX and ESPN ending in 2025. Its a $20 million per school average that started under $20 million, hits $20 mil per school at the median, and ends above $20 million per school in 2025.

That is regardless of anything including performance. Everyone's tv contract works that way.

After that the BIG 12 adds all the other revenues they get. Bowls (renogotiated in 2019), the Sugar Bowl ($40 mil per year except when its a playoff), NCAA revenues (changes every year, right now at $19 million), and playoff money per conference -not for participation in it ($51 million every year). On top of that the BIG 12 schools each get some tier 3 revenues for televised or otherwise "broadcast" games such as 1 football and several basketball games.

The issue is that the SEC has a network which is subscription based. This is the part that is not "static" for them. The Big Ten also has this with the BTN, plus the Big Ten is about to get a new TV contract.

 

[Charleston Mountie]

The Pac 12 has a grant of rights through 2024. The ACC has a grant of rights through 2027.

Those conferences also have buyout fees of $50 million or so per school.

You want those schools in the BIG 12--how exactly do you propose the BIG 12 attract any of those schools?

The GoR is not all that it is thought to be. At one time it was thought of as an ironclad contract and it was surely intended to be such, but this last year, especially this spring of 2016, several universities have dug into the ramifications of breaching the document and the reviews are mixed. Grants that is not an easy way out of it, but it is also not impossible.

I have always stated, a GoR just makes the exit cost more and significantly messier but it is not impossible. If a university wants to leave and believes doing so is an overall boon to their institution, they will leave and consider the cost and mess of breaching a GoR the cost of doing business.

Maryland is going to make a killing in the Big Ten and has reduced their travel budget in the process. Rutgers came from chump change to winning the lottery. There are bean counters at UNC and UVA that are seeing what the upside has been for UMD.

Right now everything is setup so that one pebble can start the next avalanche.