Is Neal Brown same type of coach vs Ranked Teams

[WVUALLEN]

As other WVU coaches.

Neal Brown 3-15
Holgorsen 10-21
Stewart 2-2
Rodriguez 12-14
Nehlen 14-38-2

Last 5 coaches 41-88-2 (rounded off avg 4-17)

Neal Brown though has never started ranked, been ranked or finished ranked in a season as the other 4 coaches have.

 

[Vernon]

As other WVU coaches.

Neal Brown 3-15
Holgorsen 10-21
Stewart 2-2
Rodriguez 12-14
Nehlen 14-38-2

Last 5 coaches 41-88-2 (rounded off avg 4-17)

Neal Brown though has never started ranked, been ranked or finished ranked in a season as the other 4 coaches have.

Stats are worthless without context. Were they ranked at the time of the game or at the end of the season? Were they ranked top five or just sliding in the top 25? When the percentages are close all of the details matter.

 

[WVUALLEN]

Stats are worthless without context. Were they ranked at the time of the game or at the end of the season? Were they ranked top five or just sliding in the top 25? When the percentages are close all of the details matter.

That sounds too much like coaching analytics. To me it's a win verses a ranked team if you beat them while they are ranked it's a win against ranked opponent. If you want to go into the context of wins losses against teams finished ranked or not then there is probably even less wins against ranked teams in WVU history.

 

[Vernon]

That sounds too much like coaching analytics. To me it's a win verses a ranked team if you beat them while they are ranked it's a win against ranked opponent. If you want to go into the context of wins losses against teams finished ranked or not then there is probably even less wins against ranked teams in WVU history.

I don't care if the stats look good or bad, that wasn't the point. But you don't want to compare two coaches when one was playing top 10 teams at the end of the season and the other played some Indianas who were ranked 24th in the third week of the season after beating three cupcakes. You were the one that wanted to make a point about where Neal is so I think it's fair to look at all of that. Otherwise, I'm not sure it says anything good or bad for him in comparison to the others.

 

[WVUALLEN]

I don't care if the stats look good or bad, that wasn't the point. But you don't want to compare two coaches when one was playing top 10 teams at the end of the season and the other played some Indianas who were ranked 24th in the third week of the season after beating three cupcakes. You were the one that wanted to make a point about where Neal is so I think it's fair to look at all of that. Otherwise, I'm not sure it says anything good or bad for him in comparison to the others.

Comparisons are bad I get it. It's also not fare to compare one coaches overall record versus any team compared to another coaches W/L performance through the years. It's also not fair to claim one season was against tougher opponents than another season as you can't just look at final wins and losses for that determination.

Perhaps a better comment / title would have been this is Neal W/L record against ranked opponents at the time WVU played them and here are some other WVU coaches from the past W/L record vs ranked opponents at time the game was played. I guess I need to be ultra specific in comments.

 

[Vernon]

Comparisons are bad I get it. It's also not fare to compare one coaches overall record versus any team compared to another coaches W/L performance through the years. It's also not fair to claim one season was against tougher opponents than another season as you can't just look at final wins and losses for that determination.

Perhaps a better comment / title would have been this is Neal W/L record against ranked opponents at the time WVU played them and here are some other WVU coaches from the past W/L record vs ranked opponents at time the game was played. I guess I need to be ultra specific in comments.

I'm not picking on you, I just don't like comparisons. It's so difficult without factoring in a boatload of info.

 

[WVUALLEN]

I'm not picking on you, I just don't like comparisons. It's so difficult without factoring in a boatload of info.

I didn't think you were. I understand the comparison issues. You can basically make any comparison seem equal, better or poorer without factoring in all info. Even with all the info it's not going to be 100% accurate. Just closer to being true.

 

[WESTBGVA]

what was Bobby Bowden?... 0-6 vs Penn St...he became really smart once he got top shelf talent at FSU

 

[The Bell Tolls for Thee]

As other WVU coaches.

Neal Brown 3-15
Holgorsen 10-21
Stewart 2-2
Rodriguez 12-14
Nehlen 14-38-2

Last 5 coaches 41-88-2 (rounded off avg 4-17)

Neal Brown though has never started ranked, been ranked or finished ranked in a season as the other 4 coaches have.

I'm not picking on you, I just don't like comparisons. It's so difficult without factoring in a boatload of info.

Comparisons are inevitable and necessary. Before hiring a new coach, we expect the AD to compare various coaches in some way to determine whom to interview and ultimately whom to hire. No reason a coach cannot be compared to current contemporaries or previous coaches even if the comparisons cannot be perfect. I also believe that rankings at the end of the season matter way more than at the time of the game. It is far less likely a team finishes unranked due to something like injury versus the team just being overrated.

Records vs ranked:
-Nehlen 12-48-2 (.200)
-Rodriguez 7-16 (.438)
-Stewart 2-4 (.333)
-Holgorsen 5-22 (.227)
-Brown 0-14 (.000)

Losses by 10 or less vs ranked:
-Nehlen 17-31 (.354)
-Rodriguez 4-12 (.250)
-Stewart 3-1 (.750)
-Holgorsen 10-12 (.455)
-Brown 5-11 (.357)

Records vs top 10:
-Nehlen 1-25 (.038)
-Rodriguez 2-8 (.250)
-Stewart 0-2 (.000)
-Holgorsen 2-10 (.200)
-Brown 0-6 (.000)

Losses by 10 or less vs top 10:
-Nehlen 6-19 (.240)
-Rodriguez 3-5 (.375)
-Stewart 2-0 (1.000)
-Holgorsen 5-5 (.500)
-Brown 2-4 (.333)

Ranked Finishes:
-Nehlen 6-14 (.300)
-Rodriguez 4-3 (.571)
-Stewart 2-1 (.667)
-Holgorsen 2-6 (.250)
-Brown 0-5 (.000)

Top 10 Finishes:
-Nehlen 2-18 (.100)
-Rodriguez 2-5 (.286)
-Stewart 0-3 (.000)
-Holgorsen 0-8 (.000)
-Brown 0-5 (.000)

**Caveats: All data is based upon END OF SEASON rankings. AP rankings were used for reference. Rankings were only top 20 until 1988 before rankings expanding to 25 from 1989 until present.

 

[Vernon]

Comparisons are inevitable and necessary. Before hiring a new coach, we expect the AD to compare various coaches in some way to determine whom to interview and ultimately whom to hire. No reason a coach cannot be compared to current contemporaries or previous coaches even if the comparisons cannot be perfect. I also believe that rankings at the end of the season matter way more than at the time of the game. It is far less likely a team finishes unranked due to something like injury versus the team just being overrated.

Records vs ranked:
-Nehlen 12-48-2 (.200)
-Rodriguez 7-16 (.438)
-Stewart 2-4 (.333)
-Holgorsen 5-22 (.227)
-Brown 0-14 (.000)

Losses by 10 or less vs ranked:
-Nehlen 17-31 (.354)
-Rodriguez 4-12 (.250)
-Stewart 3-1 (.750)
-Holgorsen 10-12 (.455)
-Brown 5-11 (.357)

Records vs top 10:
-Nehlen 1-25 (.038)
-Rodriguez 2-8 (.250)
-Stewart 0-2 (.000)
-Holgorsen 2-10 (.200)
-Brown 0-6 (.000)

Losses by 10 or less vs top 10:
-Nehlen 6-19 (.240)
-Rodriguez 3-5 (.375)
-Stewart 2-0 (1.000)
-Holgorsen 5-5 (.500)
-Brown 2-4 (.333)

Ranked Finishes:
-Nehlen 6-14 (.300)
-Rodriguez 4-3 (.571)
-Stewart 2-1 (.667)
-Holgorsen 2-6 (.250)
-Brown 0-5 (.000)

Top 10 Finishes:
-Nehlen 2-18 (.100)
-Rodriguez 2-5 (.286)
-Stewart 0-3 (.000)
-Holgorsen 0-8 (.000)
-Brown 0-5 (.000)

**Caveats: All data is based upon END OF SEASON rankings. AP rankings were used for reference. Rankings were only top 20 until 1988 before rankings expanding to 25 from 1989 until present.

The difference is they (ADs/schools) actually get all of the details I was referring to. I make comparisons all day long in my job but we try to have all of the numbers to properly do so.

BTW, my comments had nothing to do with Brown in terms of defending him. His numbers are awful. I was thinking more overall about how they all compare.

 

[Vernon]

Comparisons are inevitable and necessary. Before hiring a new coach, we expect the AD to compare various coaches in some way to determine whom to interview and ultimately whom to hire. No reason a coach cannot be compared to current contemporaries or previous coaches even if the comparisons cannot be perfect. I also believe that rankings at the end of the season matter way more than at the time of the game. It is far less likely a team finishes unranked due to something like injury versus the team just being overrated.

Records vs ranked:
-Nehlen 12-48-2 (.200)
-Rodriguez 7-16 (.438)
-Stewart 2-4 (.333)
-Holgorsen 5-22 (.227)
-Brown 0-14 (.000)

Losses by 10 or less vs ranked:
-Nehlen 17-31 (.354)
-Rodriguez 4-12 (.250)
-Stewart 3-1 (.750)
-Holgorsen 10-12 (.455)
-Brown 5-11 (.357)

Records vs top 10:
-Nehlen 1-25 (.038)
-Rodriguez 2-8 (.250)
-Stewart 0-2 (.000)
-Holgorsen 2-10 (.200)
-Brown 0-6 (.000)

Losses by 10 or less vs top 10:
-Nehlen 6-19 (.240)
-Rodriguez 3-5 (.375)
-Stewart 2-0 (1.000)
-Holgorsen 5-5 (.500)
-Brown 2-4 (.333)

Ranked Finishes:
-Nehlen 6-14 (.300)
-Rodriguez 4-3 (.571)
-Stewart 2-1 (.667)
-Holgorsen 2-6 (.250)
-Brown 0-5 (.000)

Top 10 Finishes:
-Nehlen 2-18 (.100)
-Rodriguez 2-5 (.286)
-Stewart 0-3 (.000)
-Holgorsen 0-8 (.000)
-Brown 0-5 (.000)

**Caveats: All data is based upon END OF SEASON rankings. AP rankings were used for reference. Rankings were only top 20 until 1988 before rankings expanding to 25 from 1989 until present.

BTW, I meant to say thanks. We're talking about it now on the Blue Lot as well. Some interesting data. Some care more about the rankings at the time of the game but I prefer post-season rankings.

 

[The Bell Tolls for Thee]

BTW, I meant to say thanks. We're talking about it now on the Blue Lot as well. Some interesting data. Some care more about the rankings at the time of the game but I prefer post-season rankings.

Rankings at the time of the game are next to useless in comparison to end of year rankings. TCU last year was 17 to start the season and finished 5-7 due to being vastly overrated. The majority of teams ranked pre and mid season that finish unranked are similarly overrated teams.

 

[Vernon]

Rankings at the time of the game are next to useless in comparison to end of year rankings. TCU last year was 17 to start the season and finished 5-7 due to being vastly overrated. The majority of teams ranked pre and mid season that finish unranked are similarly overrated teams.

That's how I feel but others feel that a team could be a top 25 team when you play them but later fall from that ranking based on problems like injuries. Also losing to you does contribute to their fall. I get what they're saying but the end of the season ranking makes the most sense.

 

[The Bell Tolls for Thee]

That's how I feel but others feel that a team could be a top 25 team when you play them but later fall from that ranking based on problems like injuries. Also losing to you does contribute to their fall. I get what they're saying but the end of the season ranking makes the most sense.

Neither is perfect, but end of season is clearly the better indicator.

 

[EERs 3:16]

As other WVU coaches.

Neal Brown 3-15
Holgorsen 10-21
Stewart 2-2
Rodriguez 12-14
Nehlen 14-38-2

Last 5 coaches 41-88-2 (rounded off avg 4-17)

Neal Brown though has never started ranked, been ranked or finished ranked in a season as the other 4 coaches have.

When did bulk of those loses occur? at the start of their tenure, towards, the end, or evenly spread out?

And fairness to Rich Rod, by the time he left, the BE was a much stronger conference than when he took the reigns and towards the end of his tenure, we was beating those ranked teams.......sadly, he couldn't beat an unranked sPitt team

 

[WVUALLEN]

When did bulk of those loses occur? at the start of their tenure, towards, the end, or evenly spread out?

And fairness to Rich Rod, by the time he left, the BE was a much stronger conference than when he took the reigns and towards the end of his tenure, we was beating those ranked teams.......sadly, he couldn't beat an unranked sPitt team

Big East was stronger from 1991-2001.

 

[WVU-SE]

BTW, I meant to say thanks. We're talking about it now on the Blue Lot as well. Some interesting data. Some care more about the rankings at the time of the game but I prefer post-season rankings.

100% agree. Perfect recent example is Boston College just got a top 10 win. We all know FSU isn't near the top 10, and will likely finish outside of the top 25...

 

[WVU-SE]

Comparisons are inevitable and necessary. Before hiring a new coach, we expect the AD to compare various coaches in some way to determine whom to interview and ultimately whom to hire. No reason a coach cannot be compared to current contemporaries or previous coaches even if the comparisons cannot be perfect. I also believe that rankings at the end of the season matter way more than at the time of the game. It is far less likely a team finishes unranked due to something like injury versus the team just being overrated.

Records vs ranked:
-Nehlen 12-48-2 (.200)
-Rodriguez 7-16 (.438)
-Stewart 2-4 (.333)
-Holgorsen 5-22 (.227)
-Brown 0-14 (.000)

Losses by 10 or less vs ranked:
-Nehlen 17-31 (.354)
-Rodriguez 4-12 (.250)
-Stewart 3-1 (.750)
-Holgorsen 10-12 (.455)
-Brown 5-11 (.357)

Records vs top 10:
-Nehlen 1-25 (.038)
-Rodriguez 2-8 (.250)
-Stewart 0-2 (.000)
-Holgorsen 2-10 (.200)
-Brown 0-6 (.000)

Losses by 10 or less vs top 10:
-Nehlen 6-19 (.240)
-Rodriguez 3-5 (.375)
-Stewart 2-0 (1.000)
-Holgorsen 5-5 (.500)
-Brown 2-4 (.333)

Ranked Finishes:
-Nehlen 6-14 (.300)
-Rodriguez 4-3 (.571)
-Stewart 2-1 (.667)
-Holgorsen 2-6 (.250)
-Brown 0-5 (.000)

Top 10 Finishes:
-Nehlen 2-18 (.100)
-Rodriguez 2-5 (.286)
-Stewart 0-3 (.000)
-Holgorsen 0-8 (.000)
-Brown 0-5 (.000)

**Caveats: All data is based upon END OF SEASON rankings. AP rankings were used for reference. Rankings were only top 20 until 1988 before rankings expanding to 25 from 1989 until present.

This is pretty telling about the current and in reality overall state of our program... Crazy! Nobody was good vs the top 25 and in reality, the RR era truly was the glory days of WV football.

Agree with V about data and comparisons, however this is no doubt an interesting look...

 

[WVUBRU]

Bill O'Brien is a darn good coach imo. Norvell is ok. But FSU is not as good as the hype and now everyone knows it. But I don't compare that result in any manner to WVU or Brown.

 

[The Bell Tolls for Thee]

This is pretty telling about the current and in reality overall state of our program... Crazy! Nobody was good vs the top 25 and in reality, the RR era truly was the glory days of WV football.

Agree with V about data and comparisons, however this is no doubt an interesting look...

I am not surprised that Brown has no ranked finishes nor any victories against teams finishing the season ranked. I was surprised Brown was on Nehlen's level in terms of keeping the final score close against ranked teams and that RR either beat ranked teams or got beaten handily by them with little in between. I was also surprised at Holgorsen being competitive in half his losses to ranked teams regardless of top 25 or top 10. The biggest take away is that only Nehlen and RR put it all together to create the big season with the top 10 finish. Stewart had a small sample size, but appeared to be similar to Holgorsen in that while he was competitive against ranked teams and had some wins against ranked teams, neither could put it all together in a single season to win the conference and finish top 10.