Inaction by Big12-2=10 Presidents is costing big bucks.

[Rootmaster]

Expansion or no expansion. Conference title game or not. Conference network or not. The endless inaction by the Big 12-2=10 is costing each member (except Texas and its 15 million from LN) a lot.

(Source CBS)"The Big 12's average payout to its full-sharing members in 2014-15 was $23.3 million, which was $9.4 million less than what SEC schools received from their conference"

And, the numbers are projected to get worse. When the Big 10 (or whatever number they are at now) renew their tv rights various sources are saying the rights payout for each school will top 40-45 million. Who knows where the SEC numbers will be at that time.

While our old rivals Maryland and Rutgers ( I mean really!) roll in the cash at nearly double what WVU gets in the Big 12-2=10, the conference Presidents read more reports and projections. Ouch.

Unless Boren and like minded folks drive the bus we could see two power conferences (SEC and BIg 10) and three almost power...Pac, ACC and Big 12.

 

[LowFatMilk]

Oh good.. ..these numbers have not been reasonably disputed in previous threads.

Glad we have another one.

 

[ColoradoMountaineer]

Adding mid majors is really gonna have the conference rolling in the bucks. Its pointless to compare the Big 12 to the Sec and Big 10 in revenue they will always have more

 

[Rootmaster]

Yea...and Rutgers was a "mid major" in the eyes of a lot of forum folks.lol.

 

[ColoradoMountaineer]

writing an article comparing revenue potential of the Big 12 vs SEC and the Big 10 is a laugh in itself

 

[Rootmaster]

Why a laugh? I thought the Big 12-2=10 was a power player too. You seem to believe in your comment...please explain. LOL

 

[VaultHunter]

Yea...and Rutgers was a "mid major" in the eyes of a lot of forum folks.lol.

Absolutely amazing how a school who has not had a ton of success on the football field could get a Big10 invite and actually help the conference.

But that makes no sense because certain people on the WVU message boards keep saying a school like UConn adds nothing.

I don't get it, why would a bunch of University President type of people know more than some person tapping on a keyboard, drinking a beer and eating a hot dog? Crazy how that works huh...

 

[ColoradoMountaineer]

Why a laugh? I thought the Big 12-2=10 was a power player too. You seem to believe in your comment...please explain. LOL

The Sec and Big 10 have larger fan bases and bigger national following than the majority of Big 12 schools the only national brands in the big 12 are Texas and Oklahoma. The population size of Sec states and Big 10 states far exceeds Big 12 country. The Big 12 and Acc will never be able to compete with the revenue potential of those 2 conferences like it or not it is what it is. You can meet all of Oklahoma's demands it still doesn't guarantee that they won't leave for greener pastors once the Gor expires in 2025

 

[Woody in Helvetia]

Expansion or no expansion. Conference title game or not. Conference network or not. The endless inaction by the Big 12-2=10 is costing each member (except Texas and its 15 million from LN) a lot.

(Source CBS)"The Big 12's average payout to its full-sharing members in 2014-15 was $23.3 million, which was $9.4 million less than what SEC schools received from their conference"

And, the numbers are projected to get worse. When the Big 10 (or whatever number they are at now) renew their tv rights various sources are saying the rights payout for each school will top 40-45 million. Who knows where the SEC numbers will be at that time.

While our old rivals Maryland and Rutgers ( I mean really!) roll in the cash at nearly double what WVU gets in the Big 12-2=10, the conference Presidents read more reports and projections. Ouch.

Unless Boren and like minded folks drive the bus we could see two power conferences (SEC and BIg 10) and three almost power...Pac, ACC and Big 12.

The difference is not that much. SEC teams do not have their own Tier 3 rights. So you can cut that 9 million difference to somewhere between 2 and 5 million depending on which school you are talking about. But the difference will continue to grow if we do nothing. I am infavor of expansion and a conference championship game. I find a conference championship game in a 10 member conference a waste of effort.

 

[Rootmaster]

LOL. Colorado...you make a strong case for expansion(not sure whether you meant too though!)...to get more population watching Big 12-2=10 football! Go for four...Cincy, USF, UCF and Connecticut...then there would be more people within the Big 12-2=10 footprint.Add divisions. Hold championship game that doesn't guarantee a rematch. Increase exposure and count the money! Doing nothing is like accepting a public assistance check for your entire life, it gets you by but won't improve your status in life.

 

[ColoradoMountaineer]

LOL. Colorado...you make a strong case for expansion(not sure whether you meant too though!)...to get more population watching Big 12-2=10 football! Go for four...Cincy, USF, UCF and Connecticut...then there would be more people within the Big 12-2=10 footprint.Add divisions. Hold championship game that doesn't guarantee a rematch. Increase exposure and count the money! Doing nothing is like accepting a public assistance check for your entire life, it gets you by but won't improve your status in life.

Nothing this conference does is gonna guarantee long term stability. If your gonna expand add teams that will increase television revenue and there simply aren't any out there. The only way to increase television revenue is to add some of the better teams from the Acc but they have a Gor and aren't going anywhere for at least a decade. This conference has been a cluster ever since its creation and that probably isn't gonna change. There is nothing stopping Oklahoma from walking out the door once the Gor is up. The big 12 will always be vulnerable its the way it is and the way it will always be

 

[Buckaineer]

The Sec and Big 10 have larger fan bases and bigger national following than the majority of Big 12 schools the only national brands in the big 12 are Texas and Oklahoma. The population size of Sec states and Big 10 states far exceeds Big 12 country. The Big 12 and Acc will never be able to compete with the revenue potential of those 2 conferences like it or not it is what it is. You can meet all of Oklahoma's demands it still doesn't guarantee that they won't leave for greener pastors once the Gor expires in 2025

Yeah, the BIG 12 would never be able to compete financially with the Big Ten or SEC, except of course they already do.

From a recent CBS Sports article:
In 2012-13, the Big 12 distributed about $20.9 million to full-sharing members compared to the SEC's $20.8 million payout. The Big 12 distributed slightly more money in 2013-14 ($21.2 million) than the SEC ($21 million).

Now, this past year the SEC got more money per school than most but not all BIG 12 members because of the SEC network payout--but some BIG 12 schools did get as much or more, and some others were just a little behind.

Its the same with what Big Ten schools made --but even closer to their numbers when you add in the revenue BIG 12 schools get for themselves for tv with what the conference pays. The ACC isn't in the same ballpark, but the BIG 12 is.

Where it becomes a problem is beyond 2025 and with the schools that make the least amount for tier 3 tv/internet rights for showing games. A BIG 12 network as Boren proposes will close that gap between the BIG 12 and the other two conferences making the most revenues.

 

[Buckaineer]

Nothing this conference does is gonna guarantee long term stability. If your gonna expand add teams that will increase television revenue and there simply aren't any out there. The only way to increase television revenue is to add some of the better teams from the Acc but they have a Gor and aren't going anywhere for at least a decade. This conference has been a cluster ever since its creation and that probably isn't gonna change. There is nothing stopping Oklahoma from walking out the door once the Gor is up. The big 12 will always be vulnerable its the way it is and the way it will always be

This is just completely baseless. Right now by not having a conference network, the BIG 12 is losing $4 to $6 million per school per year. By not having a CCG the conference is losing $25 to $35 million a year. That means if the conference adopts Boren's plan and adds two of the schools in consideration that each conference member will gain anywhere from $6 to nearly $9 million addional per year. That is if they just get a pro rata share for the new additions and nothing else. If they add good basketball schools there will be more NCAA revenue to go around. If they add a bowl or bowls there will be more bowl revenue. More sponsorships by corporations in the new footprint are possible. Adding "some of the better teams in the ACC" isn't going to necessarily add any more money than adding a G5 school and its also not possible to do, ever, during the current tv contract which is only going to be renewed for more money if the conference expands in the next few years anyway.

The conference is strong and stable now as Boren stated, they can't wait until the end of the current contract to make changes if they want to be successful beyond that--especially since at the end of the current contract nothing is going to be any different than now anyway-except the BIG 12 will go into negotiations with limited football success, revenues beginning to fall behind and no increase in footprint or viewers from today, while everyone else grew. The same sorts of schools will be available for expansion, but the BIG 12s financial situation won't be as strong as it is now.

 

[steeleer]

Once the next GOR is up, there will be changes.

There will either be a reshuffling to make 4 conferences or the BCS programs will leave the NCAA and negotiate as a single entity like the NBA and NFL.

If it's the former, then the weakest of the 5 conferences will be cannibalized to make the other 4 stronger. If it's the later, then you will see some teams shuffled within this large group for more sane scheduling. It won't matter because everyone in that scenario will be swimming in equal amounts of money.

 

[Buckaineer]

Once the next GOR is up, there will be changes.

There will either be a reshuffling to make 4 conferences or the BCS programs will leave the NCAA and negotiate as a single entity like the NBA and NFL.

If it's the former, then the weakest of the 5 conferences will be cannibalized to make the other 4 stronger. If it's the later, then you will see some teams shuffled within this large group for more sane scheduling. It won't matter because everyone in that scenario will be swimming in equal amounts of money.

There is no plan afoot to make four conferences. Schools are not going to withdraw from the P5 and entire conferences aren't going to be cannibalized.

The schools that are in power conferences now will continue to be in power conferences later. The SEC already has a tv contract locked in through the mid 2030's--that isn't going to change.

The Big Ten is about to do something similar and the BIG 12 may follow soon thereafter with some changes.

The BIG 12 isn't the only conference with a grant of rights and the conference doesn't have the first one that will expire either, but it doesn't matter. The only thing that can cause the BIG 12 issues will be if the membership doesn't make changes between now and 2025. If they don't, they won't be able to keep the members that are coveted elsewhere happy beyond the current contracts. If they do make changes, the BIG 12 will bring back some of the Big East schools that were knocked out or perhaps add an additional school that wasn't there before and move on. Beyond that its going to be a long time to get to a point where anyone could make it financially viable to try to move someone out of their existing contracts.

 

[Buster68]

There are a few schools that add good markets - UConn, BYU are the best IMO with Cincinnati, Memphis and/or one of the Florida schools possibly coming into play. Any of these schools are as good a fit as ACC cast offs like Pitt, Lou, WF, Syracuse and BC would be. I do believe that the B12 presidents will act and expand just not on the timeline that a lot of posters think they should. And yes I like the round robin play in FB and BB but it's time may be passing and we need to look at the future.

 

[steeleer]

There is no plan afoot to make four conferences. Schools are not going to withdraw from the P5 and entire conferences aren't going to be cannibalized.

The schools that are in power conferences now will continue to be in power conferences later. The SEC already has a tv contract locked in through the mid 2030's--that isn't going to change.

The Big Ten is about to do something similar and the BIG 12 may follow soon thereafter with some changes.

The BIG 12 isn't the only conference with a grant of rights and the conference doesn't have the first one that will expire either, but it doesn't matter. The only thing that can cause the BIG 12 issues will be if the membership doesn't make changes between now and 2025. If they don't, they won't be able to keep the members that are coveted elsewhere happy beyond the current contracts. If they do make changes, the BIG 12 will bring back some of the Big East schools that were knocked out or perhaps add an additional school that wasn't there before and move on. Beyond that its going to be a long time to get to a point where anyone could make it financially viable to try to move someone out of their existing contracts.

You are partially right. The Big 10, SEC and PAC 12 are already in the clubhouse while the ACC and B12 are still duking it out. One of those 2 conferences will get a significantly worse deal than the other. The lead teams from either conference (FSU, Clemson, UT and OK) will not be happy with that at all and will look at options. Once the midrange teams from that conference hear of any activity then all hell will break loose (just like last time) and then that conference will break up and be partitioned to the remaining conferences. The remaining schools will either be forced to step down to mid-major status (my guess would be KSU and ISU in the B12 or Wake and BC in the ACC) or will see the writing on the wall and voluntarily step down to save face.

 

[Buckaineer]

You are partially right. The Big 10, SEC and PAC 12 are already in the clubhouse while the ACC and B12 are still duking it out. One of those 2 conferences will get a significantly worse deal than the other. The lead teams from either conference (FSU, Clemson, UT and OK) will not be happy with that at all and will look at options. Once the midrange teams from that conference hear of any activity then all hell will break loose (just like last time) and then that conference will break up and be partitioned to the remaining conferences. The remaining schools will either be forced to step down to mid-major status (my guess would be KSU and ISU in the B12 or Wake and BC in the ACC) or will see the writing on the wall and voluntarily step down to save face.

The Pac 12 makes less money than the BIG 12 on a per school basis and writers in Arizona are writing about their schools moving to the BIG 12 down the road.

The BIG 12 is financially competitive with everyone. But that lasts through 2025 and then they have to get a new contract, and by 2025 some schools are going to be falling further behind because their tier 3 deals don't pay enough. But if the conference forms a network now while its possible then all that will change.

The difference that you leave out between the last realignment and now is that conferences have enacted something called a grant of rights whereby schools leave their media rights with the conference they are signed with for the duration of the conference. If they leave their media rights remain where they are. Because of that it doesn't matter if ACC teams get upset or not about revenue disparities. If they leave their existing conference the media rights stay with the ACC. That also doesn't address why they would leave. Even ACC schools are going to be making in the mid $24 mil per year range in 2017. The Big Ten for example may make nearly double that--but all that means is that if an ACC team left their conference, they would leave for less money than they were making before--or a lateral move at best. They'll forfeit everything they would have made in the ACC. Except it wouldn't even be that--they'd still lose money because they'll also forfeit at minimum $30 million in buyout fees--likely more since that fee continues to increase. And the conference they went to wouldn't be able to make money of of that schools media rights--which means the existing Big 10 schools would need to forfeit millions so that the ACC school could make something.

This is not going to happen. Don't know why some can't comprehend this, but no conference makes enough money to lure P5 schools out of their GORs, out of their buyouts, and keep all their existing schools from losing money. And none of that even begins to address the years of legal entanglements that would occur if someone tried.

So in 2025 BIG 12 schools if they haven't done anything in the near term, aren't going to be in position to lure ACC schools or anyone else financially. They are going to be trying to keep their own schools interested in remaining in their conference-- a conference trying to get a tv deal with a decade of lots of missing out on the playoffs, having a smaller footprint and with static or falling tv viewership. Big Ten and SEC schools aren't going to be trying to lure ACC schools at that point-why would they, they can sit back for two years and wait for ACC contracts to expire. They will poach the teams in the BIG 12 they want at that time if anyone will listen.

But, if on the other hand the BIG 12 takes action now--in 2025 everyone will be looking at a bright and secure future with future expansion possibilities if they want any.

 

[Buckaineer]

There are a few schools that add good markets - UConn, BYU are the best IMO with Cincinnati, Memphis and/or one of the Florida schools possibly coming into play. Any of these schools are as good a fit as ACC cast offs like Pitt, Lou, WF, Syracuse and BC would be. I do believe that the B12 presidents will act and expand just not on the timeline that a lot of posters think they should. And yes I like the round robin play in FB and BB but it's time may be passing and we need to look at the future.

At this point the leaders at BIG 12 schools need to be concerned about Oklahoma, not what message board posters say. Oklahoma has made it clear that the time of inaction and sitting back has passed and its time for decisions to be made--this summer.

 

[ColoradoMountaineer]

This is just completely baseless. Right now by not having a conference network, the BIG 12 is losing $4 to $6 million per school per year. By not having a CCG the conference is losing $25 to $35 million a year. That means if the conference adopts Boren's plan and adds two of the schools in consideration that each conference member will gain anywhere from $6 to nearly $9 million addional per year. That is if they just get a pro rata share for the new additions and nothing else. If they add good basketball schools there will be more NCAA revenue to go around. If they add a bowl or bowls there will be more bowl revenue. More sponsorships by corporations in the new footprint are possible. Adding "some of the better teams in the ACC" isn't going to necessarily add any more money than adding a G5 school and its also not possible to do, ever, during the current tv contract which is only going to be renewed for more money if the conference expands in the next few years anyway.

The conference is strong and stable now as Boren stated, they can't wait until the end of the current contract to make changes if they want to be successful beyond that--especially since at the end of the current contract nothing is going to be any different than now anyway-except the BIG 12 will go into negotiations with limited football success, revenues beginning to fall behind and no increase in footprint or viewers from today, while everyone else grew. The same sorts of schools will be available for expansion, but the BIG 12s financial situation won't be as strong as it is now.

The big 12 isn't getting a network and i doubt the suits at espn or fox would have much interest in it anyway. Texas is not gonna relinquish the long horn network any time soon considering there is a gor in place until 2025. This conference has been a cluster since its inception there is a reason why Colorado, Missouri, Nebraska, and Texas am have left. nothing is gonna change anytime soon.

 

[ColoradoMountaineer]

At this point the leaders at BIG 12 schools need to be concerned about Oklahoma, not what message board posters say. Oklahoma has made it clear that the time of inaction and sitting back has passed and its time for decisions to be made--this summer.

Oklahoma signed the gor they are not going anywhere they can huff and puff all they want

 

[Rootmaster]

They will challenge the GOR in court...settle for a fraction...move on and watch the Big12-2=10 implode...if they choose to do it. When it comes to athletics these days there is no honor or binding contracts. So, IMO...don't feel so secure about the Sooners.

 

[ColoradoMountaineer]

They will challenge the GOR in court...settle for a fraction...move on and watch the Big12-2=10 implode...if they choose to do it. When it comes to athletics these days there is no honor or binding contracts. So, IMO...don't feel so secure about the Sooners.

As long as there are lawyers contracts can be broken but they will not settle for a fraction it will be very expensive. Oklahoma will leave someday regardless of whether there demands are met or not if they feel it is in their best interest to do so

 

[topdecktiger]

They will challenge the GOR in court...settle for a fraction...move on and watch the Big12-2=10 implode...if they choose to do it. When it comes to athletics these days there is no honor or binding contracts. So, IMO...don't feel so secure about the Sooners.

You realize that "grant of rights" is a generic term. It's not something unique to sports. A grant of rights exists in all kinds of industries, like music, publishing, etc. It's not going to be as easy as you think to get out of a GOR because it affects a lot more that just sports.

 

[Rootmaster]

Difficult yes. Doable yes.

 

[topdecktiger]

Difficult yes. Doable yes.

Difficult is the whole problem. You are putting too much stock in whether or not it's possible. Just being possible isn't good enough. It has to be likely.

 

[Rootmaster]

If there is enough long term return then it will be likely.