I hear claims talent and depth are improving, but

[Low Mountains Drifter]

I saw this list posted on a different site. In 2011, our roster included the following players. Of them Dana recruited only Millard and Garrison and may have helped close on Buie (all of whom, ironically, left with eligibility remaining while some on that 2011 roster are still big contibutors). Looking at this list which units can you say have more talent now than we had in 2011? Where were we so depleted that 2012, 2013, 2014 and 2015 recruiting (affording opportunity to add about 100 players-- or about twice as many as actually play) could not have been expected to make up for any claimed deficiencies in depth?

QB
Geno Smith
Paul Millard
Coley White

RBs
Dustin Garrison
Andrew Buie
Shawne Alston
Ryan Clarke
Cody Clay
Vernard Roberts

WR/Slot/TE

Tavon Austin
Stedman Bailey
Ivan McCartney
Brad Starks
Tyler Urban
J.D. Woods
Ryan Nehlen
Willie Millhouse
Devon Brown
K.J. Myers
Conner Arlia

O-line

Don Barclay
Joe Madsen
Josh Jenkins
Jeff Braun
Pat Eger
Quinton Spain
Marquis Lucas
Curtis Feigt
John Bassler
Russell Haughton-James
Nick Kindler
Cole Bowers
Tyler Rader

Defense:

D-line

Bruce Irvin
Julian Miller
Will Clarke
Shaq Rowell
Jorge Wright
Kyle Rose
Josh Taylor
Trevor Demko

Line backers

Najeeh Goode
Jerome Snow
Doug Rigg
Isaiah Bruce
Wes Tonkery
Nick Kwiatkoski
Jared Barber
Josh Francis
Shaq Petteway
Tyler Anderson

DBS

Keith Tandy
Darwin Cook
Eain Smith
Terence Garvin
Pat Miller
Ishmael Banks
Brodrick Jenkins
Travis Bell
Terrell Chestnut

Where are we more talented now? Where are we deeper?

 

[wvpaper]

Well played. Win trust with mild support for head coach dh. Then innocently bring out dana condemning facts. You have message board potential.

 

[Low Mountains Drifter]

I have not offered mild support. I've said we should wait until the end of the season and make a reasoned determination. Here, I'm pointing out that if the W-L record disappoints, the claim we should excuse that because of illusory recruiting improvement is easily refuted,

I'll say again. 8-4, and I'm willing to give him another year. 6-6 or worse and he should be fired. 7-5 it should depend on how we look down the stretch. All the excuses about the past and speculation about the future should be ignored. 5 years is more than enough time for a competent coach to prove he is competent.

 

[DubVeeTexan]

I saw this list posted on a different site. In 2011, our roster included the following players. Of them Dana recruited only Millard and Garrison and may have helped close on Buie (all of whom, ironically, left with eligibility remaining while some on that 2011 roster are still big contibutors). Looking at this list which units can you say have more talent now than we had in 2011? Where were we so depleted that 2012, 2013, 2014 and 2015 recruiting (affording opportunity to add about 100 players-- or about twice as many as actually play) could not have been expected to make up for any claimed deficiencies in depth?

QB
Geno Smith
Paul Millard
Coley White

RBs
Dustin Garrison
Andrew Buie
Shawne Alston
Ryan Clarke
Cody Clay
Vernard Roberts

WR/Slot/TE

Tavon Austin
Stedman Bailey
Ivan McCartney
Brad Starks
Tyler Urban
J.D. Woods
Ryan Nehlen
Willie Millhouse
Devon Brown
K.J. Myers
Conner Arlia

O-line

Don Barclay
Joe Madsen
Josh Jenkins
Jeff Braun
Pat Eger
Quinton Spain
Marquis Lucas
Curtis Feigt
John Bassler
Russell Haughton-James
Nick Kindler
Cole Bowers
Tyler Rader

Defense:

D-line

Bruce Irvin
Julian Miller
Will Clarke
Shaq Rowell
Jorge Wright
Kyle Rose
Josh Taylor
Trevor Demko

Line backers

Najeeh Goode
Jerome Snow
Doug Rigg
Isaiah Bruce
Wes Tonkery
Nick Kwiatkoski
Jared Barber
Josh Francis
Shaq Petteway
Tyler Anderson

DBS

Keith Tandy
Darwin Cook
Eain Smith
Terence Garvin
Pat Miller
Ishmael Banks
Brodrick Jenkins
Travis Bell
Terrell Chestnut

Where are we more talented now? Where are we deeper?

I don't know if the 2011 team is necessarily the best "depth" comparison. There are still a good amount of rich rod recruits in that list. No one ever claimed we didn't have depth with rich rod. It was after Stewart's recruits started coming in and left/didn't qualify that we started to lose depth. 50 recruits, 23 make it in Stewart's two classes

 

[wvpaper]

he said "talent" and depth.

you would take that 2011 roster with 12+ pros, many of whom BS recruited, over dana's deepest rosters any day. twice on saturday.

 

[Low Mountains Drifter]

Do you not understand the significance of the fact Stewart was no longer coach in 2011? Those are all players Holgorsen had his first year. Stewart obviously was not responsible for a single thing that happened after he was terminated. And, it should be equally obvious that to the extent the 2011 recruiting class was subpar, blame for that goes 99% to Luck and his stupid decision to go HCIW in the midst of recruiting.

It would be merely really stupid to blame Stewart for things beyond his control if he was alive and able to defend himself. Doing it after he died is stupid and shameful.

 

[Low Mountains Drifter]

Holgorsen defenders might also be well advised to visit the 2012 recruit list page. How many of those guys left? How many didn't develop into contributors? The idea that we are struggling from 2013-15, because of what a guy who had his last fair chance to recruit in 2010 did is nonsensical. That would be true if Holgorsen wasn't seeing many of his recruits leave or not pan out.

 

[DubVeeTexan]

Do you not understand the significance of the fact Stewart was no longer coach in 2011? Those are all players Holgorsen had his first year. Stewart obviously was not responsible for a single thing that happened after he was terminated. And, it should be equally obvious that to the extent the 2011 recruiting class was subpar, blame for that goes 99% to Luck and his stupid decision to go HCIW in the midst of recruiting.

It would be merely really stupid to blame Stewart for things beyond his control if he was alive and able to defend himself. Doing it after he died is stupid and shameful.

Don't shame me for facts when you're out on a witch hunt. 23 out of 50, period. Casazza wrote a great article on it. I never said anything bad about bill Stewart as a person. Just because he died doesn't mean I'm going to back down about what he did on the recruiting trail. It's a domino effect.

 

[irishladdy]

Don't shame me for facts when you're out on a witch hunt. 23 out of 50, period. Casazza wrote a great article on it. I never said anything bad about bill Stewart as a person. Just because he died doesn't mean I'm going to back down about what he did on the recruiting trail. It's a domino effect.

Where are you coming up with the 23 out of 50 figures? Just doing a rough count of the 2008 and 2009 classes, I count way more than 23 of those players on the roster when Holgorsen took over.

On top of that the 2008 class was completely put together in a month with an entirely new staff... with RR trying to destroy that class on his way out. When you take that into consideration, that class probably overachieved.

 

[jlaudiomaster]

I saw this list posted on a different site. In 2011, our roster included the following players. Of them Dana recruited only Millard and Garrison and may have helped close on Buie (all of whom, ironically, left with eligibility remaining while some on that 2011 roster are still big contibutors). Looking at this list which units can you say have more talent now than we had in 2011? Where were we so depleted that 2012, 2013, 2014 and 2015 recruiting (affording opportunity to add about 100 players-- or about twice as many as actually play) could not have been expected to make up for any claimed deficiencies in depth?

QB
Geno Smith
Paul Millard
Coley White

RBs
Dustin Garrison
Andrew Buie
Shawne Alston
Ryan Clarke
Cody Clay
Vernard Roberts

WR/Slot/TE

Tavon Austin
Stedman Bailey
Ivan McCartney
Brad Starks
Tyler Urban
J.D. Woods
Ryan Nehlen
Willie Millhouse
Devon Brown
K.J. Myers
Conner Arlia

O-line

Don Barclay
Joe Madsen
Josh Jenkins
Jeff Braun
Pat Eger
Quinton Spain
Marquis Lucas
Curtis Feigt
John Bassler
Russell Haughton-James
Nick Kindler
Cole Bowers
Tyler Rader

Defense:

D-line

Bruce Irvin
Julian Miller
Will Clarke
Shaq Rowell
Jorge Wright
Kyle Rose
Josh Taylor
Trevor Demko

Line backers

Najeeh Goode
Jerome Snow
Doug Rigg
Isaiah Bruce
Wes Tonkery
Nick Kwiatkoski
Jared Barber
Josh Francis
Shaq Petteway
Tyler Anderson

DBS

Keith Tandy
Darwin Cook
Eain Smith
Terence Garvin
Pat Miller
Ishmael Banks
Brodrick Jenkins
Travis Bell
Terrell Chestnut

Where are we more talented now? Where are we deeper?

Full disclosure, I'm as tired of Dana now as anyone but let's call him out when he deserves it. Is this the full roster? To be fair, they weren't all seniors and we weren't getting production from many of those players at one time. Don't make the mistake of only considering players on our current 2 deep and thinking some of the Freshmen and Sophomores won't be key contributors in the future. In fact, on that list, if Geno went down, do you feel good about the qb situation? Do you feel better if Howard goes down this year, in comparison? Isiah Bruce was the best linebacker we had on that roster, ultimately was replaced as we gained depth at linebacker.

 

[DubVeeTexan]

Where are you coming up with the 23 out of 50 figures? Just doing a rough count of the 2008 and 2009 classes, I count way more than 23 of those players on the roster when Holgorsen took over.

On top of that the 2008 class was completely put together in a month with an entirely new staff... with RR trying to destroy that class on his way out. When you take that into consideration, that class probably overachieved.

I am talking about 09'& 10'. For all intents and purposes I credit RR and his remaining staff for 08'. You're right though the class did have talent and thus the shame of how him leaving went down.

 

[wbgvwbgv]

he said "talent" and depth.

you would take that 2011 roster with 12+ pros, many of whom BS recruited, over dana's deepest rosters any day. twice on saturday.

BS got them to come to WVU, but Holgorsen turned them into NFL players. And you won't know about this roster for several years, but Dana's track record is well established. Does anyone really think the bubble screen pass under Stewart gets Smith or Austin or Bailey into the NFL? Delusional.

 

[Low Mountains Drifter]

Of course, many of our young players will contribute in the future, regardless of who is the coach. My point is many of the players Holgorsen inherited contributed and many of the players he recruited either left or have not.

The whole argument Stewart's tenure was some sort of anomaly that left the program in dire straits is complete and utter BS. We've always suffered attrition or had recruits who never quite made the grade. We had a great deal of it under Rodriguez as well and, to a lesser extent Nehlen.

We have more of this than the truly elite programs (but not many programs that are merely above average as we are) for an obvious reason. Elite programs can look at a kid they think has talent but academic or other issues and pass because they have the luxury of taking a different kid with similar talent without those issues. We don't always have that luxury. The only reason we had somewhat less of it under Nehlen is that while he certainly took some chances like that, he didn't do it as much as hi successors because he was old school and his "gambles" were weighed more heavily toward taking kids who might have appeared less talented in high school but whom he thought would develop with coaching. All three of who followed have tended to take more chances on "stars" and looking good on signing day with the result that attrition ensues.

I'm not blaming any of the 3 for that. I'm saying that the argument that Holgorsen is recruiting better than Stewart is a non-starter. Recruiting (except obviously at QB) is little different than it always was. Attrition is little different. Percentage of players who contribute is little different. Distribution of players may be a bit different in that we have more skill players and DBs and less linemen

In other words, as I said, these facts do not support an argument for keeping Holgorsen if his W-L record disappoints. Talent and depth has not improved; it's about the same just distributed a bit differently. I think it's fairly obvious our lines on both sides of the ball are not as strong and that we have a lot of WRs and DBs now who either are or might be pretty good (It's pretty hard to evaluate the receivers this year)

We aren't likely to get a Saban or Meyer level guy (although it's not impossible Meyer started at Bowling Green and Saban at Toledo) but there is a fairly huge spread between guys like that and guys like Holgorsen within which have a very good shot of finding a better coach. Any coach we have will have to deal with the reality of handling personnel at a program at our level

I think there are coaches who can do that and win consistently. I don't mean winning conference titles and making the playoffs on a semi-regular basis. I mean not having losing conference records more often than not and never really even looking like we should be in the discussion for a conference title.

To finally make a long story short, the bottom line is includes, five years with no improvement, a huge problem at QB in an offense that revolves around the QB, and the prospect of losing 7 starters on the defense. Beyond all that, we need to be honest about whatt we have all seen, literally week in and week out for years-- that we are not a well-prepared, well-disciplined, sound fundamental football team on game days and our coach does not cover himself in glory with his decision-making during games. I find it hard to believe anyone who follows football even slightly has not noticed that.

 

[GoWVU]

I think there are coaches who can do that and win consistently. I don't mean winning conference titles and making the playoffs on a semi-regular basis. I mean not having losing conference records more often than not and never really even looking like we should be in the discussion for a conference title.

Great post again, Drifter.

The part I excerpted above is extremely important, because I share the identical view and it dispels one of the common lies trotted out regularly by the Holgorsen jihadists.

Nobody has ever asked that we roll into the Big 12 and become Oklahoma. However, by the same token it's not asking too much to be Kansas St...especially considering we recruit much better annually and didn't have to rebuild the program from rock bottom as Snyder was forced to do.

I want to be clear on what I mean numerically by that Kansas St comparison. Since the Big 12 began in 1996, Snyder averaged 9 wins per year before his retirement and has averaged 8.5 per season since returning. They've won the Big 12 championship twice--once each before and after his hiatus. In addition to the 2 titles, they also reached the Big 12 title game 2 other times and finished as the runner-up. They're not immune from losing seasons, and may be facing another rocky one this fall, but the Wildcats have been roughly twice as likely to win 10+ under Snyder as they are to finish .500 or worse overall.

Clearly Snyder is a HOF coach and nobody is asking that we have one of those. However, since the WVU program has recruited better than Kansas St for years it shouldn't require one. We're already starting from a better position, so there's no reason a good head coach shouldn't be able to at least approach those results. If Holgorsen were doing that, most here would be happy and his job security wouldn't be an issue. He is not, however, which is why other avenues need to be explored. If Lyons is the AD we need him to be, then he is already doing so behind the scenes as you suggested on another thread.

 

[Low Mountains Drifter]

I agree. I don't expect miracles or even Snyder- level overachieving. He's amazing and maybe the best example ever of whay a great coach can mean to a program. I can't think of any other coach where you can see it as you can with weak before and after AND good again upon return.

It's also very unlkely we could ever find a guy so loyal and committed.

 

[GoWVU]

It's also very unlkely we could ever find a guy so loyal and committed.

Totally agreed on this. Beamer and Snyder may be some of the last of a dying breed. I think the days of the 20-year head coach in sports are about to pass into history, with the exceptions to that getting more and more scarce.

It was probably the most observant thing Theo Epstein said upon his departure from the Boston Red Sox, that maybe 10 years is about as long as you can stay in one place anymore. In other words, there are going to be many more Rich Rodriguez tenures in WVU's future than there will be Don Nehlen tenures...so it's time to recognize that reality and think accordingly.

 

[wvpaper]

BS got them to come to WVU, but Holgorsen turned them into NFL players. And you won't know about this roster for several years, but Dana's track record is well established. Does anyone really think the bubble screen pass under Stewart gets Smith or Austin or Bailey into the NFL? Delusional.

Irrational thoughts like yours come from a dark place..

The NFL is very good at finding talent. No coach makes or breaks NFL talent.

Another, more realistic, way of looking at this is Stewart helped build a talented roster of underclassmen and was fired before the best of them were juniors and seniors. This simply is what it is.

 

[Low Mountains Drifter]

Is no one going to address my original assertion that comparing the 2011 roster to this one shows we have no more talent or depth than we did then and that claims he has improved recruiting are not reality based?

 

[wvpaper]

Is no one going to address my original assertion that comparing the 2011 roster to this one shows we have no more talent or depth than we did then and that claims he has improved recruiting are not reality based?

The problem is your assertion is indisputable. You have their heads spinning, their 'reality' crumbling.

 

[Low Mountains Drifter]

Ya know, I don't exactly figure having you agree helps me get others to take a good hard look at the state of things. Might be more of the opposite effect.

 

[wvpaper]

Ya know, I don't exactly figure having you agree helps me get others to take a good hard look at the state of things. Might be more of the opposite effect.

yeah, you almost had them and i ruined it. this was good for a nice chuckle.

just so you know... you can trot out facts until you're blue in the face, but you will NEVER EVER get someone to change their minds on a wvu message board. have fun with it. but dont think you are making some kind of difference here.

lol.. i'm still laughing at this. thanks.

 

[Low Mountains Drifter]

Damn, I already had these when I read your warning. Ah, what the heck.

From this site, comparing current roster with LOI signees:

13 of 29 from 2012 gone without using up eligibility; 3 transfers used it up. 13 players left

7 of 26 from 2013 gone without using up eligibility; 3 transfers used it up. 16 players left

7 of 21 from 2014 gone without using up eligibility; 1 transfer used it up; 13 players left.

Now there are probably a few scholarship players who are on the roster now who didn't show up on the LOI list (I know Sims and Riddick didn't, but they are gone. ) but how do those numbers translate to increased depth?

The good news is Cole is only the 2nd from this year's class that I can think of, which would mean we have 19 left.

That's a total of 61 scholarship players over the 4 year period still on the roster (again, there may be a few more due to the omission of late signees or whatever).

As we can give 25 scholarships a year and I believe we are losing somewhere around 18 senior scholarship players how does the math work to allow for the argument we are building depth for the future?

Just for discussion's sake let's say we have don't have 61 but 65 players from those recruiting years on this year's team. I believe we have 11 5th year players. That would total up to 76 scholarship players on the roster right now. Now, I don't think having a few vacancies is any big deal myself (no team wins or loses because it has a few more or less players on the bench; it's the people who actually play when it matters that, well, matter.)

I do see people here though trying to claim that we used to have such issues due to incompetence but that we don't anymore. A question arises. Were you wrong about it being a big deal then?




18 will be using up eligibility. 76-18= 58? so, next year's coach will only have 58 returning scholarship players (assuming no one leaves with eligibility left, unlikely but possible) and about 43 with game experience. another question arises. Does that buy only a new coach, if we have one, 7 years to prove himself, or should Dana get 7 more too because it's going to be hard to compete in a big boy conference with those numbers?

 

[wvpaper]

You ever think Dana could recruit better and keep his guys longer if you clowns stopped bashing him on these boards?

Hell yes he could.

It's all your fault, jack wagon.

 

[hancockeer]

great post and u r right thats all we do is bash

 

[Low Mountains Drifter]

• Does it work the other way? If I write posts ignoring or distorting facts in an effort to fabricate good things to say about him, will he become a better coach?

It obviously doesn't work when others do it, but do you think I got dat mojo majik?

 

[Low Mountains Drifter]

Such a clamor for "facts" on this board yet crickets when facts people don't want to acknowledge are offered.

 

[WESTBGVA]

I saw this list posted on a different site. In 2011, our roster included the following players. Of them Dana recruited only Millard and Garrison and may have helped close on Buie (all of whom, ironically, left with eligibility remaining while some on that 2011 roster are still big contibutors). Looking at this list which units can you say have more talent now than we had in 2011? Where were we so depleted that 2012, 2013, 2014 and 2015 recruiting (affording opportunity to add about 100 players-- or about twice as many as actually play) could not have been expected to make up for any claimed deficiencies in depth?

QB
Geno Smith
Paul Millard
Coley White

RBs
Dustin Garrison
Andrew Buie
Shawne Alston
Ryan Clarke
Cody Clay
Vernard Roberts

WR/Slot/TE

Tavon Austin
Stedman Bailey
Ivan McCartney
Brad Starks
Tyler Urban
J.D. Woods
Ryan Nehlen
Willie Millhouse
Devon Brown
K.J. Myers
Conner Arlia

O-line

Don Barclay
Joe Madsen
Josh Jenkins
Jeff Braun
Pat Eger
Quinton Spain
Marquis Lucas
Curtis Feigt
John Bassler
Russell Haughton-James
Nick Kindler
Cole Bowers
Tyler Rader

Defense:

D-line

Bruce Irvin
Julian Miller
Will Clarke
Shaq Rowell
Jorge Wright
Kyle Rose
Josh Taylor
Trevor Demko

Line backers

Najeeh Goode
Jerome Snow
Doug Rigg
Isaiah Bruce
Wes Tonkery
Nick Kwiatkoski
Jared Barber
Josh Francis
Shaq Petteway
Tyler Anderson

DBS

Keith Tandy
Darwin Cook
Eain Smith
Terence Garvin
Pat Miller
Ishmael Banks
Brodrick Jenkins
Travis Bell
Terrell Chestnut

Where are we more talented now? Where are we deeper?

There seems to be a disturbing trend for the past threes seasons..the team just hasn't gotten any better at the end of the year..of course there were injuries..the one to Trickett was especially damaging..in the past three seasons the last five games have gone 2-3,1-4, and 2-3..Iowa St and Kansas were both in those last five games each year.

 

[Low Mountains Drifter]

I really don't think that is depth related. All teams have lost players and have others playing banged up down the stretch. The replacements don't come from the last 10 on the roster. It also hasn't been the case our late season swoons have come for the most part against teams that out recruit us.

 

[Mtman 69]

I really don't care who the coach is or who it will be......Till Holgs gets a QB that can actually play he is not going to win.......

 

[Low Mountains Drifter]

That's, more or less, true for any coach. The bigger issue is how good have we been under him even when we had a QB who could play. Eliminate 2013 and this year from the picture, and we still weren't doing anything much.

In 2011-12 and 2014 we were 15-15 against Power 5 conference teams. 3 of those wins are against Maryland, 4 against Kansas and ISU and 1 against Rutgers. Against decent or better Power 5 teams in those years we were 7-15. And that's calling TTU and Pitt decent; take them out and we were 4-14.

 

[Low Mountains Drifter]

Come on! Doesn't anyone try to put a pro-Dana spin on what I've laid out in this thread?

 

[WarezEER]

There seems to be a disturbing trend for the past threes seasons..the team just hasn't gotten any better at the end of the year..of course there were injuries..the one to Trickett was especially damaging..in the past three seasons the last five games have gone 2-3,1-4, and 2-3..Iowa St and Kansas were both in those last five games each year.

Listen.........................all teams should improve as the season progresses. WV ain't got no lock on this concept. If every team does in fact improve as the season progresses...............then it's a 'wash' at best. Am I over looking something? That being said, judging whether a team has improved or not is impossible to judge. Mr. Warez

 

[Low Mountains Drifter]

So you're saying all the teams we've lost to late season (including Kansas, ISU and Cuse) must have been better than us all season?

That's reassuring. Thanks for the insight.

 

[Low Mountains Drifter]

Still no takers on challenging anything with counter-arguments based on facts?

Funny, some here leap in with such certainty about "facts" such as we would dominate the AAC, or beat Pitt, or there is no chance we could get a good new coach, or that Stewart could not have won the BE in 2011. I guess people tend to prefer the "facts " that are more like pure speculation that reinforces what they want to believe than the kind of facts that involve actual present reality.

 

[dogeered_again]

I don't know if the 2011 team is necessarily the best "depth" comparison. There are still a good amount of rich rod recruits in that list. No one ever claimed we didn't have depth with rich rod. It was after Stewart's recruits started coming in and left/didn't qualify that we started to lose depth. 50 recruits, 23 make it in Stewart's two classes

Yes, in 3 years Stewart with, albeit, 9-3 seasons... emptied the pantry and there was nothing left for a decent meal. It takes time to re-build from that folks. It's more than just a significant "grocery" bill.

 

[Low Mountains Drifter]

Look at the very first post in the thread. We're already way past the point anyone can claim they are not aware of the falsity of that assertion. You can't change the facts, so you need to change the argument.

 

[urlacherfan]

Look at the very first post in the thread. We're already way past the point anyone can claim they are not aware of the falsity of that assertion. You can't change the facts, so you need to change the argument.

If I look at our current roster, I would take our rb, lb, and db position groups over the one you have listed from 2011. I do think our general depth is better now, but what stands out to me is our lack of star power. I would kill to have Geno, Bruce, Tavon, or Sted. While we have some guys who have shown some promise, nobody comes close to being proven threats like those guys. Of course they are 4 of the most productive players we have had at their positions.

 

[Low Mountains Drifter]

All three of our starting linebackers are part of what Holgorsen inherited. I notice you don't mention either line or attempt to specify where the depth is better.

 

[wbgvwbgv]

I saw this list posted on a different site. In 2011, our roster included the following players. Of them Dana recruited only Millard and Garrison and may have helped close on Buie (all of whom, ironically, left with eligibility remaining while some on that 2011 roster are still big contibutors). Looking at this list which units can you say have more talent now than we had in 2011? Where were we so depleted that 2012, 2013, 2014 and 2015 recruiting (affording opportunity to add about 100 players-- or about twice as many as actually play) could not have been expected to make up for any claimed deficiencies in depth?

QB
Geno Smith
Paul Millard
Coley White

RBs
Dustin Garrison
Andrew Buie
Shawne Alston
Ryan Clarke
Cody Clay
Vernard Roberts

WR/Slot/TE

Tavon Austin
Stedman Bailey
Ivan McCartney
Brad Starks
Tyler Urban
J.D. Woods
Ryan Nehlen
Willie Millhouse
Devon Brown
K.J. Myers
Conner Arlia

O-line

Don Barclay
Joe Madsen
Josh Jenkins
Jeff Braun
Pat Eger
Quinton Spain
Marquis Lucas
Curtis Feigt
John Bassler
Russell Haughton-James
Nick Kindler
Cole Bowers
Tyler Rader

Defense:

D-line

Bruce Irvin
Julian Miller
Will Clarke
Shaq Rowell
Jorge Wright
Kyle Rose
Josh Taylor
Trevor Demko

Line backers

Najeeh Goode
Jerome Snow
Doug Rigg
Isaiah Bruce
Wes Tonkery
Nick Kwiatkoski
Jared Barber
Josh Francis
Shaq Petteway
Tyler Anderson

DBS

Keith Tandy
Darwin Cook
Eain Smith
Terence Garvin
Pat Miller
Ishmael Banks
Brodrick Jenkins
Travis Bell
Terrell Chestnut

Where are we more talented now? Where are we deeper?

I am sure that people are really starting to see things your way. LOL.

 

[jpf578]

Do you not understand the significance of the fact Stewart was no longer coach in 2011? Those are all players Holgorsen had his first year. Stewart obviously was not responsible for a single thing that happened after he was terminated. And, it should be equally obvious that to the extent the 2011 recruiting class was subpar, blame for that goes 99% to Luck and his stupid decision to go HCIW in the midst of recruiting.

It would be merely really stupid to blame Stewart for things beyond his control if he was alive and able to defend himself. Doing it after he died is stupid and shameful.

So you have never, ever blamed someone for something after they were dead? By your logic, Hitler can no longer be blamed for the death of 6 million Jews. Thank God Jimmy Carter and Obama are still alive.