in the middle east again. However it looks like there may be negotiations in the works between the white house and congress to get it done. The reason I don't support it is that ,like other times there, we won't "win" or finish the job completely, and I can't see sacrificing lives if we aren't going to. That aside....if the decision is made to send troops, how many is "enough?".....Lindsay Graham said ..".3000 is too many for hostages and not enough to win".......what do you folks think?
I am a conservative, but I am not in favor of "boots on the ground"
- Thread starter Snow Sled Baby
- Start date
We can only win in any ME war by staying and occupying territory forever
and that is a fact. That is why Iraq is so effed up right now. Many, including me, said that the minute we leave, there would be a power struggle because of the void. If the USA is to win any ME war, we have to stay and impose our will on the country we occupy. We can defeat any military force put in front of us. We invaded and defeated Iraq's military in a few weeks. But the real challenge is what happens when the military campaign ends. Apparently Arab/Muslims are incapable of democracy. It seems incompatable with their culture. So, if we want stability, we have to stay. Or prop up another dictator.
and that is a fact. That is why Iraq is so effed up right now. Many, including me, said that the minute we leave, there would be a power struggle because of the void. If the USA is to win any ME war, we have to stay and impose our will on the country we occupy. We can defeat any military force put in front of us. We invaded and defeated Iraq's military in a few weeks. But the real challenge is what happens when the military campaign ends. Apparently Arab/Muslims are incapable of democracy. It seems incompatable with their culture. So, if we want stability, we have to stay. Or prop up another dictator.
Not one American in ground combat. My big question is why the Kurds are not getting all the resources they need. This is nothing new. We have heard for years that they are the bravest and best fighters but there is a reluctance to give them the top notch support they need. My guess is that Turkey must be the reason.
There is another possibility
Bomb them back to the 8th century where they want to live. Arbitrarily wipe out infrastructure and lives when they attack us. Forget this precise bombing campaign. They need to fear us, not like us.
Bomb them back to the 8th century where they want to live. Arbitrarily wipe out infrastructure and lives when they attack us. Forget this precise bombing campaign. They need to fear us, not like us.
The region has never been stable....ever...
And periods of stability only arise when some narcissistic nutcase takes charge through fear tactics.
IMO- A christian nation may be able to overpower their military, but we can not win there. We need multinational effort spearheaded by strong regional leadership. I want us there to help, but we can not to lead this. We've done that already.
And periods of stability only arise when some narcissistic nutcase takes charge through fear tactics.
IMO- A christian nation may be able to overpower their military, but we can not win there. We need multinational effort spearheaded by strong regional leadership. I want us there to help, but we can not to lead this. We've done that already.
Re: The region has never been stable....ever...
The ME leaders that are leading moderate Muslim nations need to get scared...when they get scared, then they'll have reason to act on the radical problem...are we slowly reaching that point?
The ME leaders that are leading moderate Muslim nations need to get scared...when they get scared, then they'll have reason to act on the radical problem...are we slowly reaching that point?
He's right. It would probably work
Nuke the whole region. But that is not who we are-killing millions of innocents (genocide) in the process of killing all the bad guys.
Nuke the whole region. But that is not who we are-killing millions of innocents (genocide) in the process of killing all the bad guys.
Re: My answer is the same now as it was in 2001-2002
I don't pretend to be knowledgeable in foreign policy or military strategy and my comments are always very limited on these subjects. I try to trust that our leaders in the government (regardless of political party) will make the best decision they know in order to keep the country safe and the world as peaceful as possible. Unfortunately, that trust was broken but that is another topic. I supported troops going to Afghanistan but did not support it going to Iraq as the build-up was highly suspect to me and I wanted more known facts before committing on -ground troops. But that is history however lessons should be learned by those that were "wrong" about the Iraq war.
As of now, I see no need for combat troops fighting ISIS. Personally, I have appreciated how the Administration has addressed these conflicts in the ME for the most part. I know that statement will be received by some on this board in a very negative manner, but that is ok. It is only an opinion.
I don't pretend to be knowledgeable in foreign policy or military strategy and my comments are always very limited on these subjects. I try to trust that our leaders in the government (regardless of political party) will make the best decision they know in order to keep the country safe and the world as peaceful as possible. Unfortunately, that trust was broken but that is another topic. I supported troops going to Afghanistan but did not support it going to Iraq as the build-up was highly suspect to me and I wanted more known facts before committing on -ground troops. But that is history however lessons should be learned by those that were "wrong" about the Iraq war.
As of now, I see no need for combat troops fighting ISIS. Personally, I have appreciated how the Administration has addressed these conflicts in the ME for the most part. I know that statement will be received by some on this board in a very negative manner, but that is ok. It is only an opinion.
Problem is that we'd have to keep half the armed forces there to do that
Remember when General Shinseki was asked how many troops it would take to pacify Iraq and when he said several hundred thousand he was ridiculed and forced out?
Between ISIS and the Shiite militias, anything less would just be a waste of lives, property, and money. But Bush, Cheney, and Rumsfeld knew that the American people wouldn't stand for a long-term commitment of that magnitude and that's why they turned the attack dogs loose. Does anyone think the political climate has changed in that regard after 14 years of grinding war in Afghanistan and Iraq?
Remember when General Shinseki was asked how many troops it would take to pacify Iraq and when he said several hundred thousand he was ridiculed and forced out?
Between ISIS and the Shiite militias, anything less would just be a waste of lives, property, and money. But Bush, Cheney, and Rumsfeld knew that the American people wouldn't stand for a long-term commitment of that magnitude and that's why they turned the attack dogs loose. Does anyone think the political climate has changed in that regard after 14 years of grinding war in Afghanistan and Iraq?
My dad used to call it "the parking lot theory"
but he was a WW2 vet who had seen the aftermath of Pearl Harbor...he was pretty much an advocate of total destruction.....I guess so many people who fought before Korea,Viet Nam, and Iraq don't inderstand why we didn't stop until "total victory" was achieved
but he was a WW2 vet who had seen the aftermath of Pearl Harbor...he was pretty much an advocate of total destruction.....I guess so many people who fought before Korea,Viet Nam, and Iraq don't inderstand why we didn't stop until "total victory" was achieved
Your right it is crazy
The sad part is the theology of ISIS and Iran leadership is very similar in that they believe that a Madhi is going to arise out of a catastrophi war that they start. In other words they create Armagedon to bring about world peace, the Caliphate. Very different then the Christian belief that Armagedon will happen but it won't be something that you strive to create. It will be a result of the actions of man but not an action man strives to start. This is different view then most in Islam. Unfortunately the ones currently in power in Iran and Isis have this belief. The ones that have this belief will not hesitate using Nukes on us or our friends and allies. They truly believe it will usher in their Madhi . They really don't care about getting nuked back.
Our best defense is to ensure that the sects with this belief do not get into power by any means necessary. Also not allowing any countries with those beliefs to not get a nuclear weapon is a very important piece of the plan. This will hopefully avoid the use of nuclear weapons by any party in the middle east.
This post was edited on 2/23 10:04 AM by wvpack
The sad part is the theology of ISIS and Iran leadership is very similar in that they believe that a Madhi is going to arise out of a catastrophi war that they start. In other words they create Armagedon to bring about world peace, the Caliphate. Very different then the Christian belief that Armagedon will happen but it won't be something that you strive to create. It will be a result of the actions of man but not an action man strives to start. This is different view then most in Islam. Unfortunately the ones currently in power in Iran and Isis have this belief. The ones that have this belief will not hesitate using Nukes on us or our friends and allies. They truly believe it will usher in their Madhi . They really don't care about getting nuked back.
Our best defense is to ensure that the sects with this belief do not get into power by any means necessary. Also not allowing any countries with those beliefs to not get a nuclear weapon is a very important piece of the plan. This will hopefully avoid the use of nuclear weapons by any party in the middle east.
This post was edited on 2/23 10:04 AM by wvpack
Re: We can only win in any ME war by staying and occupying territory forever
That is the truth, Doc...
Posted from Rivals Mobile
That is the truth, Doc...
Posted from Rivals Mobile
Re: My dad used to call it "the parking lot theory"
Pearl Harbor was all the motivation needed to unite almost the entire population of the United States to support our entry into World War II. Since 1945 only 9/11 has come remotely close to comparing to that, and we quickly lost interest in retaliating against Afghanistan. In Iraq we just created a power vacuum that we weren't prepared to fill, and here we are.
Pearl Harbor was all the motivation needed to unite almost the entire population of the United States to support our entry into World War II. Since 1945 only 9/11 has come remotely close to comparing to that, and we quickly lost interest in retaliating against Afghanistan. In Iraq we just created a power vacuum that we weren't prepared to fill, and here we are.
I disagree...
sort of. There may have been some loss of interest by the American public in Afghanistan but only after we invaded Iraq. We had one legitimate war going and one illegitimate one. Because of Iraq, the country became war-fatigued. It was never going to be easy in Afghanistan. the Soviets proved that. But we had momentum and support-both at home and abroad. Our mission there was to depose the Taliban and kill al qaeda. It never was nation-building. I think Afghanistan was largely a success. And the loss of American lives there was justified. Unlike Iraq. Iraq screwed up all or goodwill. And made the whole region less secure. It was counter to our national interests. All becasue of a bunch of idealistic neocons. Shame on them. They have created a mess.
sort of. There may have been some loss of interest by the American public in Afghanistan but only after we invaded Iraq. We had one legitimate war going and one illegitimate one. Because of Iraq, the country became war-fatigued. It was never going to be easy in Afghanistan. the Soviets proved that. But we had momentum and support-both at home and abroad. Our mission there was to depose the Taliban and kill al qaeda. It never was nation-building. I think Afghanistan was largely a success. And the loss of American lives there was justified. Unlike Iraq. Iraq screwed up all or goodwill. And made the whole region less secure. It was counter to our national interests. All becasue of a bunch of idealistic neocons. Shame on them. They have created a mess.
Re: My dad used to call it "the parking lot theory"
The fact is that Iraq was stable, as even Obama acknowledged. We pulled out all our troops, which was a devastating mistake. We still have troops in Korea for goodness sake. McCain said in 2008 that he wanted to still be in Iraq for 100 years. We made a huge strategic error and the growth of ISIS and the descent into chaos is the result.
I totally agree with the OP. If we are not in it to win it, stay the hell away but provide leadership, training and arms to our Arab friends and let them fight for themselves.
The fact is that Iraq was stable, as even Obama acknowledged. We pulled out all our troops, which was a devastating mistake. We still have troops in Korea for goodness sake. McCain said in 2008 that he wanted to still be in Iraq for 100 years. We made a huge strategic error and the growth of ISIS and the descent into chaos is the result.
I totally agree with the OP. If we are not in it to win it, stay the hell away but provide leadership, training and arms to our Arab friends and let them fight for themselves.
Not millions, wouldn't be necessary
Indiscriminately bomb Raqqa, 100 of them for everyone of our's, and it will slow down. Eers is right, it will never stop, though.
Indiscriminately bomb Raqqa, 100 of them for everyone of our's, and it will slow down. Eers is right, it will never stop, though.
Re: I disagree...
I'm not trying to relitigate Iraq. The fact is that Iraq was stable. Obama pulled out when we should have left a residual force. It's called leadership. The country was tired of war during Korea but our leaders did the right thing. Same as in Germany. Now, we are trying to help recapture land we once controlled. ISIS would never have invaded Iraq with an American force in the country.
I'm not trying to relitigate Iraq. The fact is that Iraq was stable. Obama pulled out when we should have left a residual force. It's called leadership. The country was tired of war during Korea but our leaders did the right thing. Same as in Germany. Now, we are trying to help recapture land we once controlled. ISIS would never have invaded Iraq with an American force in the country.
We will be wasting time and resources by........
training and arming Iraqi forces. We already tried that and it was a complete joke. They will turn and run just like they always have. The Kurds and Iran,(and yes Iran),are the only hope of stopping Isis short of the U.S. going back in. I still say no on that option.
This post was edited on 2/23 12:23 PM by bornaneer
training and arming Iraqi forces. We already tried that and it was a complete joke. They will turn and run just like they always have. The Kurds and Iran,(and yes Iran),are the only hope of stopping Isis short of the U.S. going back in. I still say no on that option.
This post was edited on 2/23 12:23 PM by bornaneer
Re: We will be wasting time and resources by........
I'm actually talking about an Arab coalition of the kind El Sisi is mentioning. The time is ripe. Jordan, Eqypt, Iraq, Lebanon etc. must take care of business but need American leadership, intelligence and arms.
I'm actually talking about an Arab coalition of the kind El Sisi is mentioning. The time is ripe. Jordan, Eqypt, Iraq, Lebanon etc. must take care of business but need American leadership, intelligence and arms.
Re: My dad used to call it "the parking lot theory"
You can't stabilize a country when troops have to constantly be watching their backs for an attack by people who are supposed to be their partners in defense.
For crying out loud, stop comparing Iraq to Korea. We still have troops in Korea because the Koreans want us there -- we didn't invade Korea and overthrow the government, we went in to help the South repel an invasion and we've stayed there to fulfill an agreement, not as an occupying force. I did two full tours and a 90-day deployment in Korea during my 20 years in the Army and not once did any U.S. troop get blown up by an IED planted by a South Korean.
You can't stabilize a country when troops have to constantly be watching their backs for an attack by people who are supposed to be their partners in defense.
Re: My dad used to call it "the parking lot theory"
Stop the "occupying force" nonsense. Obama made a huge, strategic error. We should have had a base in Iraq which Obama acknowledged was safe and stable. Just like we have bases across the globe.
Stop the "occupying force" nonsense. Obama made a huge, strategic error. We should have had a base in Iraq which Obama acknowledged was safe and stable. Just like we have bases across the globe.
Because most wingnuts are hypocrites....
they talk about Jesus claiming they want to be like him. But they don't associate with the poor, they don't want their govt to help the poor, they are pro death penalty, and they are pro war. And they judge, judge, judge....It flies in the face of what Jesus stood for. And they think that if Jesus was here today, he'd be a republican and think democrats are evil.
they talk about Jesus claiming they want to be like him. But they don't associate with the poor, they don't want their govt to help the poor, they are pro death penalty, and they are pro war. And they judge, judge, judge....It flies in the face of what Jesus stood for. And they think that if Jesus was here today, he'd be a republican and think democrats are evil.
Re: My dad used to call it "the parking lot theory"
What's nonsense is comparing Iraq to any country with whom we have a true partnership. A significant number of the population viewed us as occupiers because we didn't come as "liberators," we came in and overthrew their government. We don't have bases in any country that doesn't want us there, with the exception of Cuba where we continue to lease the Guantanamo Bay Naval Base. We withdrew from the Philippines when they asked us to close down Clark AFB and Subic Bay Naval Base, was that less of a "strategic error" than the withdrawal from Iraq given China's growing influence in the Pacific?
Re: "And they judge, judge, judge" Look who's talking....What an Idiot...
if you are a christian do you advocate "Indiscriminately bomb Raqqa, 100 of them for everyone of our's, and it will slow down" as well as think this might be consistent with the life message of Christ?
If you are not do you still advocate for america doing this?
if you are a christian do you advocate "Indiscriminately bomb Raqqa, 100 of them for everyone of our's, and it will slow down" as well as think this might be consistent with the life message of Christ?
If you are not do you still advocate for america doing this?
Re: My dad used to call it "the parking lot theory"
What absolute BS. Iraq was and is in our national security interest. We had a good relationship with Iraqi's and their leaders. If Obama wanted, we would still be there. He blew it and we are paying the price. Now we are back again due to his incompetence. JV team indeed!
What absolute BS. Iraq was and is in our national security interest. We had a good relationship with Iraqi's and their leaders. If Obama wanted, we would still be there. He blew it and we are paying the price. Now we are back again due to his incompetence. JV team indeed!
Re: You are the idiot doing the judging. Perfect defination of a "Hypocrite"...
Iraq deteriorated because of the Malaki government oppressed the Sunnis, enter ex Baathists joining Daesh. This is a proxy war between Saudi Arabia and Iran, we need to stay out of it. You want to put pressure on Iran? Let the Syrian civil war drag on and make them continue to spend blood and treasure there. This fight is beginning to spread into Lebanon and will put more strain on Hezbollah and its resources which are already being used in Syria.
Let them kill each other and protect whatever resources we have in Iraq. ISIS main supply line from Syria to Iraq (Raqqa to Mosul) is in jeopardy and it will be intersting to see what happens with the planned offensive to take Mosul in the spring.
Iraq deteriorated because of the Malaki government oppressed the Sunnis, enter ex Baathists joining Daesh. This is a proxy war between Saudi Arabia and Iran, we need to stay out of it. You want to put pressure on Iran? Let the Syrian civil war drag on and make them continue to spend blood and treasure there. This fight is beginning to spread into Lebanon and will put more strain on Hezbollah and its resources which are already being used in Syria.
Let them kill each other and protect whatever resources we have in Iraq. ISIS main supply line from Syria to Iraq (Raqqa to Mosul) is in jeopardy and it will be intersting to see what happens with the planned offensive to take Mosul in the spring.
I'll try
The only way I can is that it isn't about people. This is ideology vs ideology. One ideology wants to enslave all others. Our's, doesn't want that to happen so much.
The loss of life from their ideology will save countless lives in other areas. They kidnapped 200 Syrian Christian women today to sell into the sex slave industry they've set up. You've heard most of the beheading and burning stories. They're also trafficking the body parts from those they murder. Their ideology must be stopped, for the well being of the rest of the world.
Their ideology is pure evil. I see no way to restore their individual relationships with God from my angle. Perhaps He has a better idea, but I don't.
The only way I can is that it isn't about people. This is ideology vs ideology. One ideology wants to enslave all others. Our's, doesn't want that to happen so much.
The loss of life from their ideology will save countless lives in other areas. They kidnapped 200 Syrian Christian women today to sell into the sex slave industry they've set up. You've heard most of the beheading and burning stories. They're also trafficking the body parts from those they murder. Their ideology must be stopped, for the well being of the rest of the world.
Their ideology is pure evil. I see no way to restore their individual relationships with God from my angle. Perhaps He has a better idea, but I don't.
Re: You are the idiot doing the judging. Perfect defination of a "Hypocrite"...
I think this is the best use of our forces there. ISIS can play pretend bigtime all they want but they are not equipped to maintain supply lines and we need to isolate them and cut off each of their arms and let iraq and syria fight them in their cities.
I think this is the best use of our forces there. ISIS can play pretend bigtime all they want but they are not equipped to maintain supply lines and we need to isolate them and cut off each of their arms and let iraq and syria fight them in their cities.
Judge not, that you be not judged. For with the judgment...
you pronounce you will be judged, and with the measure you use it will be measured to you. Why do you see the speck that is in your brother's eye, but do not notice the log that is in your own eye? Or how can you say to your brother, 'Let me take the speck out of your eye,' when there is the log in your own eye? You hypocrite, first take the log out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to take the speck out of your brother's eye."
That's the problem with taking scripture out of context, you always screw it up. It doesn't say to leave your brother's speck to himself.
you pronounce you will be judged, and with the measure you use it will be measured to you. Why do you see the speck that is in your brother's eye, but do not notice the log that is in your own eye? Or how can you say to your brother, 'Let me take the speck out of your eye,' when there is the log in your own eye? You hypocrite, first take the log out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to take the speck out of your brother's eye."
That's the problem with taking scripture out of context, you always screw it up. It doesn't say to leave your brother's speck to himself.
Jesus: "You serpents, you brood of vipers, how are you to escape being...
sentenced to hell?"
A little judgmental.
sentenced to hell?"
A little judgmental.
John the Baptist: For Herod had seized John and bound him and put him...
in prison for the sake of Herodias, his brother Philip's wife, because John had been saying to him, "It is not lawful for you to have her."
John the Baptist rebuking King Herod. Oops.
in prison for the sake of Herodias, his brother Philip's wife, because John had been saying to him, "It is not lawful for you to have her."
John the Baptist rebuking King Herod. Oops.
Apostle John: Who is the liar but he who denies that Jesus is the Christ?..
This is the antichrist, he who denies the Father and the Son.
He just called you out Doc... errrrr, antichrist.
I think you get the point.
This is the antichrist, he who denies the Father and the Son.
He just called you out Doc... errrrr, antichrist.
I think you get the point.
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