Honest Question Here

[DvlDog4WVU]

The battle cry of "Black Lives Matter". I fully agree. However, my perception is that the community does very little to address the black on black murder and violence that is much more pervasive than questionable policing. If they don't care enough to change from within, then why should I care enough to get involved and be outraged over an issue that pails in comparison to the real problem facing their communities.

I will say, the unreported things happening in Baltimore are amazing. Outpouring of support by the black community for the Police is amazing. I saw a photo yesterday of demonstrators lined up in front of the police forming a human wall to protect them from the hooligans. In my opinion, that is the stuff that needs to be shown and needs to be highlighted by the media. Not the Al Sharptons and Jessis Jacksons of the world.

 

[WhiteTailEER]

I don't know that they do very little to address it. I think there is very little that they CAN do. With the pervasive gangs and everything, I think people are scared to say anything for fear of retaliation.

If they don't care enough to change from within, then why should I care enough to get involved and be outraged over an issue that pails in comparison to the real problem facing their communities.

I saw a photo yesterday of demonstrators lined up in front of the police forming a human wall to protect them from the hooligans.

I think you have two statements in there that are contradictory to each other. First there is the common perception that they don't care enough to change from within, but then you have the line of demonstrators lined up to protect the police. To me that shows a significant number that are willing to change things for the better.

I agree that the Al Sharpton's and Jessie Jackson's don't help. If nothing else, they have simply propogated a victim mentality and how the world is against them. It really breaks my heart that MLK was murdered because I think the message would be entirely different ... but his murder also lends credibility to the "they are out to get us" mentality.

The difference between the black-on-black violence and the police brutality/murders, in my mind, is that the police are supposed to serve and protect. It's not terribly hard to understand the underswelling of emotion when people are victims of crimes (by their own hands if you want to look at it that way) but then also have nowhere to turn when they are consistently shown they can't trust the police either.

It is a mistake, in my opinion, to assume that all in the black community are complicit or contribute to all the crime in the black community. They are victims there too. You're seeing it more and more in "white" communities now too with the pervasiveness of cheap drugs, but the narrative isn't "why don't they stand up against it".

It's a very complicated issue in my mind because it wasn't really all that long ago since the equal rights movement. There are still people alive whose father or grandfather was the victim of a lynching. Also, peoples' parents and grandparents didn't have the same educational opportunities that the white (or any other race really) had, so they were relegated to the lower income housing ... projects ... instead of being able to pull themselves into the suburbs. You see it with white families too. That cycle of poverty is increasingly more difficult to break out of.

 

[mule_eer]

The battle cry of "Black Lives Matter". I fully agree. However, my perception is that the community does very little to address the black on black murder and violence that is much more pervasive than questionable policing. If they don't care enough to change from within, then why should I care enough to get involved and be outraged over an issue that pails in comparison to the real problem facing their communities.

I will say, the unreported things happening in Baltimore are amazing. Outpouring of support by the black community for the Police is amazing. I saw a photo yesterday of demonstrators lined up in front of the police forming a human wall to protect them from the hooligans. In my opinion, that is the stuff that needs to be shown and needs to be highlighted by the media. Not the Al Sharptons and Jessis Jacksons of the world.

Another thing that goes mostly unreported are the things that leaders in the black community do to help fight black on black crime. I'm not saying it's proven to be effective, but Sharpton and Jackson do address it.

In this particular case, Baltimore could have helped itself to a degree. The police have released almost nothing of substance about why Gray was stopped or arrested or what happened in the van. The only real footage I've seen was Gray being dragged to the van. If the police want support from the community, they have to talk to the community. I don't think that makes the looters justified in their actions, but I understand the reason for the rage.

 

[DvlDog4WVU]

Another thing that goes mostly unreported are the things that leaders in the black community do to help fight black on black crime. I'm not saying it's proven to be effective, but Sharpton and Jackson do address it.

In this particular case, Baltimore could have helped itself to a degree. The police have released almost nothing of substance about why Gray was stopped or arrested or what happened in the van. The only real footage I've seen was Gray being dragged to the van. If the police want support from the community, they have to talk to the community. I don't think that makes the looters justified in their actions, but I understand the reason for the rage.

Wouldn't it be irresponsible to release the information before a thorough investigation is conducted?

 

[WhiteTailEER]

Wouldn't it be irresponsible to release the information before a thorough investigation is conducted?

Absolutely it would. If we learned nothing else from the Michael Brown situation is that when bits and pieces get released people latch onto the narrative that fits their viewpoint and it's hard to change that viewpoint with the facts once they are released.

Another thing that goes mostly unreported are the things that leaders in the black community do to help fight black on black crime. I'm not saying it's proven to be effective, but Sharpton and Jackson do address it.

I would like to see this reported more. Addressing the "change from within" if it was more publicized how many people were trying to do just that, it might gradually help in those communities. It would let the people that want ot speak against the violence and crime that they aren't alone.

I would also like to see the Sharpton's and Jackson's of the world talk a lot more about education and the opportunities that are available.

 

[WVPATX]

The battle cry of "Black Lives Matter". I fully agree. However, my perception is that the community does very little to address the black on black murder and violence that is much more pervasive than questionable policing. If they don't care enough to change from within, then why should I care enough to get involved and be outraged over an issue that pails in comparison to the real problem facing their communities.

I will say, the unreported things happening in Baltimore are amazing. Outpouring of support by the black community for the Police is amazing. I saw a photo yesterday of demonstrators lined up in front of the police forming a human wall to protect them from the hooligans. In my opinion, that is the stuff that needs to be shown and needs to be highlighted by the media. Not the Al Sharptons and Jessis Jacksons of the world.

I have actually been pleasantly surprised by the support the police have been given, not by the rioters, but by the rest of the community. Policing in major cities is very, very difficult. Giuliani completely changed the landscape in NYC through very agressive policing actions. Bloomberg continued those policies and NYC has been relatively safe. But agressive policing means that men are stopped in high crime areas (mainly black) and resent it. These policies result in lower crime but also with worse relations with the community.

But I do believe that Sharpton and Jackson are looking for external villains rather than looking inwardly. Old policies of fighting poverty haven't worked. However, their power base comes from black people believing that society is at fault for their woes. So Sharpton and Jackson need external villains. The police are very convenient targets even though the stats don't back up that assertion.

I have actually been heartened with the comments of some community leaders in Baltimore acknowledging that the old policies don't work. Big government coercion won't work. The community, like in Harlem, must come together and create the environment that can attract capital. Take a trip in upper Manhattan to lower Harlem and you will be amazed.

As I've posted many times, the single biggest issue in the black community is out of wedlock births. All communities are impacted but none moreso than the black community. Until the issue is addressed, this battle against poverty and hopelessness will not be solved.

 

[mule_eer]

Wouldn't it be irresponsible to release the information before a thorough investigation is conducted?

You have to do something to show some progress. Instead of talking about how people were going to be given space to destroy stuff, talk about where you are in the investigation. You can release some info without jeopardizing the investigation. Maybe that wouldn't have helped anyway, but at least it's an attempt to appease some of the anger.

 

[DvlDog4WVU]

I don't know that they do very little to address it. I think there is very little that they CAN do. With the pervasive gangs and everything, I think people are scared to say anything for fear of retaliation.



I think you have two statements in there that are contradictory to each other. First there is the common perception that they don't care enough to change from within, but then you have the line of demonstrators lined up to protect the police. To me that shows a significant number that are willing to change things for the better.

I agree that the Al Sharpton's and Jessie Jackson's don't help. If nothing else, they have simply propogated a victim mentality and how the world is against them. It really breaks my heart that MLK was murdered because I think the message would be entirely different ... but his murder also lends credibility to the "they are out to get us" mentality.

The difference between the black-on-black violence and the police brutality/murders, in my mind, is that the police are supposed to serve and protect. It's not terribly hard to understand the underswelling of emotion when people are victims of crimes (by their own hands if you want to look at it that way) but then also have nowhere to turn when they are consistently shown they can't trust the police either.

It is a mistake, in my opinion, to assume that all in the black community are complicit or contribute to all the crime in the black community. They are victims there too. You're seeing it more and more in "white" communities now too with the pervasiveness of cheap drugs, but the narrative isn't "why don't they stand up against it".

It's a very complicated issue in my mind because it wasn't really all that long ago since the equal rights movement. There are still people alive whose father or grandfather was the victim of a lynching. Also, peoples' parents and grandparents didn't have the same educational opportunities that the white (or any other race really) had, so they were relegated to the lower income housing ... projects ... instead of being able to pull themselves into the suburbs. You see it with white families too. That cycle of poverty is increasingly more difficult to break out of.

Very good response. Yes, I did contradict myself in the case of Baltimore, I was speaking more broadly than just the day's recent events. I understand there are issues that don't directly relate to just the black community and are more closely aligned with lower income areas. There are some unique or seemingly unique things to the black community but I freely admit it is spilling over into all aspects of society. I'm more talking about the glorifying of the criminal lifestyle. The difference that I see is that it is loudly condemned by all aspects of white communities for being out of line. It's not glorified in the culture, music, and movies. It almost seems as if there is just a complete disconnect in what is considered acceptable between the two. One can easily make the case as you did that there are contributing factors not shared between the two which which facilitate how each deals with the issue.

 

[WVPATX]

You have to do something to show some progress. Instead of talking about how people were going to be given space to destroy stuff, talk about where you are in the investigation. You can release some info without jeopardizing the investigation. Maybe that wouldn't have helped anyway, but at least it's an attempt to appease some of the anger.

I think you set youself up for more problems by releasing partial information during an investigation. That's a huge can of worms. Besides, only a criminal prosecution would appease the agitators and no amount of spin will keep them on the sidelines, imo.

 

[DvlDog4WVU]

Absolutely it would. If we learned nothing else from the Michael Brown situation is that when bits and pieces get released people latch onto the narrative that fits their viewpoint and it's hard to change that viewpoint with the facts once they are released.



I would like to see this reported more. Addressing the "change from within" if it was more publicized how many people were trying to do just that, it might gradually help in those communities. It would let the people that want ot speak against the violence and crime that they aren't alone.

I would also like to see the Sharpton's and Jackson's of the world talk a lot more about education and the opportunities that are available.

I agree with all of that.

My broader point I guess was that I know this kind of stuff is happening, the perception is that it isn't. The black community has a perception issue they need to continue to try and address. They are fighting an uphill battle because what whitey sees is the glorification of thugging, street soldiers, and criminal behavior.

 

[COOL MAN]

I agree with all of that.

My broader point I guess was that I know this kind of stuff is happening, the perception is that it isn't. The black community has a perception issue they need to continue to try and address. They are fighting an uphill battle because what whitey sees is the glorification of thugging, street soldiers, and criminal behavior.

I think you're absolutely dead right; and I have no clue how to overcome this.

I honestly think.....and you're free to disagree with me.....individuals like Jackson and Sharpton privately realize that continuing civil unrest of this type by their constituents works violently against their cause. But since these two are (apparently) looked upon as public mouthpieces of their constituent's anger.....which both "need" to maintain their own comparative public relevance......they've totally boxed themselves in, both socially and politically.

But what makes Baltimore, to my way of thinking, different than Ferguson and other similar situations is what appears to be the amount of local condemnation of the rioting. I find it surprising, and frankly refreshing. I also appreciated the candid comments I heard the other night from Kweisi Mfume, the former congressman from Maryland and current NAACP President; he said flatly there's no excuse or justification for the violence, period.

 

[mneilmont]

A few things that I would note:

Police get paid to serve and protect. Would you suggest we pay blacks to not kill blacks? Murder is a capital crime totally without regard to parties. Enforce the laws. Stop making excuses for illegal activity in black or white community(different sections of town).

Could the community leaders have stopped the initial violence - show themselves and ask officials to enforce the law. The community and her people are the ones who are going to pay long term with jobs and stores. Give the community something - suspend the officer driving the paddy wagon, potential legal charges pending investigation.

How long do we make excuses. The Civil Rights Act of 1963-64 stopped the separate but equal education and seperations in public places. That was 50 years ago, and there was not a hoodlum that participated in the activities that were affected by substandard education opportunities. Also, poor whites were discriminated against in the past. It is hard to buy the excuse when you see the educated and professional blacks in every vocation. Enough. Opportunities have been available to those who would accept the challenge since the 60s and 70s. Granted, some privileged do have advantages.

Local, state or federal level recognition should be bestowed upon the civic leaders who stepped forward.

 

[Wolf J. Flywheel]

I agree with all of that.

My broader point I guess was that I know this kind of stuff is happening, the perception is that it isn't. The black community has a perception issue they need to continue to try and address. They are fighting an uphill battle because what whitey sees is the glorification of thugging, street soldiers, and criminal behavior.

You don't honestly believe that this astounding uptick in incidents (and riots) are unfolding in the absence of a convoluted, labyrinthine orchestration do you? The illusion of coincidence reels in more fish than Bill Dance could in 5,000 lifetimes. There is not about racism (which has always existed and always will) or PTSD soldiers turned police officers gone wrong. There's an element that WANTS this and STEERS this. It's astounding how many people cannot see that something larger is afoot here.

Say it with me ..... and with feeling ...... DOOOOOOOOOOMED!!!!

 

[TarHeelEer]

individuals like Jackson and Sharpton privately realize that continuing civil unrest of this type by their constituents works violently against their cause.

This doesn't work against their causes. Their causes are themselves.

 

[DvlDog4WVU]

You don't honestly believe that this astounding uptick in incidents (and riots) are unfolding in the absence of a convoluted, labyrinthine orchestration do you? The illusion of coincidence reels in more fish than Bill Dance could in 5,000 lifetimes. There is not about racism (which has always existed and always will) or PTSD soldiers turned police officers gone wrong. There's an element that WANTS this and STEERS this. It's astounding how many people cannot see that something larger is afoot here.

Say it with me ..... and with feeling ...... DOOOOOOOOOOMED!!!!

 

[MountainBill]

If the problem were ever fixed the race baiters like Sharpton and Jackson as well as the democratic party would be out of business.

 

[WhiteTailEER]

I'm more talking about the glorifying of the criminal lifestyle. The difference that I see is that it is loudly condemned by all aspects of white communities for being out of line. It's not glorified in the culture, music, and movies. It almost seems as if there is just a complete disconnect in what is considered acceptable between the two.

Very good point, and I think this is where the "leaders" need to talk about making change. The problem is that it isn't well received. Bill Cosby tried addressing a lot of these kinds of things (before all the rape stuff came out) and he was considered a sell-out.

 

[DvlDog4WVU]

he was considered a sell-out.

That in and of itself is an issue. The ostracizing of the "Uncle Tom" or bowing down to the man.

 

[bornaneer]

That in and of itself is an issue. The ostracizing of the "Uncle Tom" or bowing down to the man.

Good point !!! I also am amazed how many " eye witnesses " come forward with information, as they should, like we saw in Baltimore, Ferguson, New York and other places where police have been the accused. But strangely, prosecutors have a very hard time finding ANY " eye witnesses" who saw anything in regard to the nearly 600, mostly black men who were murdered in Baltimore in the past two years.