Expansion

[Papillion]

He shall henceforth be known in all the kingdom as Duckaineer. Quack, quack. I think there are a few people buying what he is selling, but much of the board remains silent. You want to know what I think about expansion? Leave it to the BIG12 leadership, they have some hard choices but now they also have some new options which I expect them to pursue for a while as they consider the pros and cons of expansion. I will live with whatever they decide. What ever Duck is selling, I'm not buying.

That's just it. I don't care if he's bantering on here for someone's behalf. Just say so and give us the pros and cons. But to come here and act like Cincy and UConn our some kind of saviors is laughable.

Now I wouldn't mind a UConn along with Louisville but since they're not available i feel the whole thing is just moot for now at least.

 

[Buckaineer]

It will be interesting to see how the BIG 12 meetings on February 4th and 5th go. Obviously this is going to be a major meeting in the history of the conference.

Boren is determined to get people off their duffs and to work on a comprehensive plan to strengthen the conference. Will Texas be willing to listen and work with the rest of the conference? Will others?

Boren and the 2 or 3 other supporting members are going to have to present a concise plan to get through the same sort of vitriol that you see here on these boards and others. People don't want to listen to facts or reason when they have agendas after all.

Something that must be "gotten to the bottom of"--what IS UTs agenda in all of this. Just as Boren and company need to explain their position, Texas needs to come to the table and explain their position. What is their goal in doing nothing? How will that benefit the conference as a whole? Because Boren is certainly explaining his side of things.

Hopefully everyone can come to agreement on a path forward because the alternatives aren't going to be good down the road.

 

[Mountaineer Steve]

It will be interesting to see how the BIG 12 meetings on February 4th and 5th go. Obviously this is going to be a major meeting in the history of the conference.

Boren is determined to get people off their duffs and to work on a comprehensive plan to strengthen the conference. Will Texas be willing to listen and work with the rest of the conference? Will others?

Boren and the 2 or 3 other supporting members are going to have to present a concise plan to get through the same sort of vitriol that you see here on these boards and others. People don't want to listen to facts or reason when they have agendas after all.

Something that must be "gotten to the bottom of"--what IS UTs agenda in all of this. Just as Boren and company need to explain their position, Texas needs to come to the table and explain their position. What is their goal in doing nothing? How will that benefit the conference as a whole? Because Boren is certainly explaining his side of things.

Hopefully everyone can come to agreement on a path forward because the alternatives aren't going to be good down the road.

Texas does not need to come to the table and explain their agenda. The fact that they get 15 million for 3rd tier rights is all anyone needs to know. It would take years if ever for Texas to get that type of money from BIG12 network.

And really it does not matter, all the expansion committee needs to do is convince 8 of the other programs. If it really is a slam dunk better options for all but Texas, expansion will happen.

As I stated earlier, the bigger issues is expansion without a network. This is not going to happen if the schools can't agree how to handle existing 3rd tier contracts.

 

[Buckaineer]

Texas does not need to come to the table and explain their agenda. The fact that they get 15 million for 3rd tier rights is all anyone needs to know. It would take years if ever for Texas to get that type of money from BIG12 network.

And really it does not matter, all the expansion committee needs to do is convince 8 of the other programs. If it really is a slam dunk better options for all but Texas, expansion will happen.

As I stated earlier, the bigger issues is expansion without a network. This is not going to happen if the schools can't agree how to handle existing 3rd tier contracts.

No, it's time for everything to be revealed here. OU has made themselves clear. There needs to be concrete comprehensive addressing of the real issues facing the conference and if not, they will need to consider other options. OUs preference is the BIG 12 conference strengthens itself and ends the disadvantages it now faces.

Texas needs to reveal what I it's intentions are. It's long been rumored that they intend to stick it to the current membership at the time of contract renewal in 2025. If they don't want any changes in the conference regardless of how beneficial those moves will be to their conference mates then it's time they explain what and why to the membership in no uncertain terms as OU did. What is the benefit to Texas of stopping growth and success of the BIG 12 if indeed that is what is happening. Most believe that to be the case.

The expansion committee and some others are already in favor of expansion but something is stopping them from making the move. The commissioner is claiming there isn't a desire to expand, but that is clearly only the feelings of a few, so why is he representing it as the entire conference's view? If the reason is a perceived threat, then the membership has a right to know. The bulk of the league needs to know what they are facing in the future or if some members have other intentions so that all can do what's best for them. If UT is content in the conference as recent comments suggest, then they need to lay out directly what they need to help the rest of the conference succeed rather than this vast difference in resources.

There is no issue with determining how to handle existing tier 3 contracts. Boren again, expects the membership to address all issues at the same basic time, beginning with expansion which of course will take time to implement.

 

[skygusty]

The Duckaineer demands answers! Quack, quack and more quack. I'm betting you get at least a dime for every post where you spread a little more hostility between Oklahoma and Texas. Or is it more? How do you find a job like this?

Texas does not need to come to the table and explain their agenda. The fact that they get 15 million for 3rd tier rights is all anyone needs to know. It would take years if ever for Texas to get that type of money from BIG12 network.

And really it does not matter, all the expansion committee needs to do is convince 8 of the other programs. If it really is a slam dunk better options for all but Texas, expansion will happen.

As I stated earlier, the bigger issues is expansion without a network. This is not going to happen if the schools can't agree how to handle existing 3rd tier contracts.

The other problem is that even if they agree on expansion, they could be miles apart on which way to go. Which specific schools they can agree on. This is potentially a huge change, and schools are unexcited about the quality of the candidates and where they are located. It not only obligates them to a long term relationship with schools that will kick up everybody's travel issues but involves schools that are not a great cultural fit. Even though there are problems with WVU from a travel standpoint, we are a GREAT cultural fit with the BIG12. I would not be shocked at all to see them try the CCG for a couple of years. The Big12 was smart to get this option. They are smart to consider expansion, and they are smart to take their time and think this through carefully.

 

[Cuyahoga Falls Eers]

NOTHING favors expanding the Big 12.

The current teams would be giving away a piece of their annual payout of $30 million to expand.

What would they do that?

The $$$ numbers don't add up. $300 million now for 10 teams. $360 million for 12 teams would not bring one cent more to the current members. Is TV going to pony up $200 million more for 12 teams? Get real.

The Big 12 is the model that all the conferences should have set up: 10 teams, 9 games against everybody. Then let the champs play for the national title. It's almost that way now anyway, except one conference gets left out each year.

All the rest is meaningless chatter.

 

[Buckaineer]

Things have already been considered in the BIG 12 for years now. Boren has stated its time for action now, not more waiting. He is correct. Everything will take lots of time to implement. Schools don't generally leave conferences immediately, they gradually move as per conference rules. Also, there must be time for renegotion of contracts.

We'll have a better picture the first week of February exactly what will take place, but if Boren sees no action in his requests for years then major problems are likely going to arise.

 

[Buckaineer]

NOTHING favors expanding the Big 12.

The current teams would be giving away a piece of their annual payout of $30 million to expand.

What would they do that?

The $$$ numbers don't add up. $300 million now for 10 teams. $360 million for 12 teams would not bring one cent more to the current members. Is TV going to pony up $200 million more for 12 teams? Get real.

The Big 12 is the model that all the conferences should have set up: 10 teams, 9 games against everybody. Then let the champs play for the national title. It's almost that way now anyway, except one conference gets left out each year.

All the rest is meaningless chatter.

The current members will be making more revenue when they expand and also put themselves on equal footing with other conferences in making a playoff. the BIG 12 already lost $6 million missing out on the first playoff, and will do the same each time from here on out. Those losses quickly make any splitting of revenues to two more members seem small in comparison anyway if that were to be the case.

TV is going to add to the BIG 12 in various ways. Doesn't really matter if you believe it but the conference leaders have the actual numbers and media consultant estimates to consider rather than imaginary fantasies of what schools are or aren't worth.

 

[eers1foru]

In my opinion the championship being allowed without two divisions has all but killed expansion. You can have the game for the 13th bullet point if the conference decides to do so. The championship game revenue will be divided amongst the same ten teams already sharing in the pie. If two teams that move the needle become available they can add them. If not enjoy your big payday and be in the top two spots at the end of the year.

 

[Buckaineer]

In my opinion the championship being allowed without two divisions has all but killed expansion. You can have the game for the 13th bullet point if the conference decides to do so. The championship game revenue will be divided amongst the same ten teams already sharing in the pie. If two teams that move the needle become available they can add them. If not enjoy your big payday and be in the top two spots at the end of the year.

That might be true if the president of the University of Oklahoma and several other presidents and or chancellors didn't want to expand the conference.

If the conference doesn't expand the clock is ticking on the end of the BIG 12.

 

[Mountaineer Steve]

No, it's time for everything to be revealed here. OU has made themselves clear. There needs to be concrete comprehensive addressing of the real issues facing the conference and if not, they will need to consider other options. OUs preference is the BIG 12 conference strengthens itself and ends the disadvantages it now faces.

Texas needs to reveal what I it's intentions are. It's long been rumored that they intend to stick it to the current membership at the time of contract renewal in 2025. If they don't want any changes in the conference regardless of how beneficial those moves will be to their conference mates then it's time they explain what and why to the membership in no uncertain terms as OU did. What is the benefit to Texas of stopping growth and success of the BIG 12 if indeed that is what is happening. Most believe that to be the case.

The expansion committee and some others are already in favor of expansion but something is stopping them from making the move. The commissioner is claiming there isn't a desire to expand, but that is clearly only the feelings of a few, so why is he representing it as the entire conference's view? If the reason is a perceived threat, then the membership has a right to know. The bulk of the league needs to know what they are facing in the future or if some members have other intentions so that all can do what's best for them. If UT is content in the conference as recent comments suggest, then they need to lay out directly what they need to help the rest of the conference succeed rather than this vast difference in resources.

There is no issue with determining how to handle existing tier 3 contracts. Boren again, expects the membership to address all issues at the same basic time, beginning with expansion which of course will take time to implement.

Let me rephrase what I said. I was't saying meaning Texas shouldn't open up, but saying they are Texas and they probably think they don't have to.

As far as Bowslby is concerned, he is not going to come out in public in say the BIG12 is ready to expand if the votes are not there. It just makes the BIG12 look more dysfunctional (which is is)

Saying there is no issues on how to handle tier 3 contracts is easy, doing it is another issue. There are huge costs involved involved in buying out all the different contracts/ These costs on top of other network startup costs will keep the BIG12 network from being profitable for many years. In addition there is an unequal amount of money being made on these rights with Texas leading the way. Will Texas be compensated more for giving up the LHN? Will WVU be commentated more than ISU, TT, TCU and others since their rights are bringing in more money per year?

The easiest way to handle all of this is to plan for expansion and network to start in 2024 when everything is expiring. All of that assuming the BIG12 is not at a disadvantage for having 10 team CCG game.

 

[Mountaineer Steve]

That might be true if the president of the University of Oklahoma and several other presidents and or chancellors didn't want to expand the conference.

If the conference doesn't expand the clock is ticking on the end of the BIG 12.

That is your opinion. I don't happen to believe it.

 

[Buckaineer]

That is your opinion. I don't happen to believe it.

Its not my opinion, its the statement the president of the University of Oklahoma has made about the situation.

Get it though. You don't believe the conference is at a disadvantage-even though the playoff committee and the commissioner and other conference leaders says it is. You don't believe the conference will get more revenue for expansion even though one of the top leaders in the conference states it will-oh and he also happens to be on the expansion committee. You don't think that expansion would be good for WVU even though the president of WVU is for expansion and wants up to 14 teams. You don't think there are any candidates that can be added even though the committee made up of WVU's president, Baylor's president and Oklahoma's president have researched the matter for well over a year along with media consultants and identified 6 or 7 candidates that would be additive. And now you don't believe that Oklahoma is going to do anything when the president of that school has stated its time or his school will have to consider different options. Oh, but you do believe a conference that has all its rights owned by the primary network for college sports, has a far larger footprint than the BIG 12, has been getting better tv ratings the last couple of years and has won a championship or played for one three years running is going to collapse, and for some reason their schools are going to want to come to a conference that if they do as you want will stand still over the next 9 years and just wait for schools to flock to it (even though they'll still have two years remaining on a grant of rights).

 

[Buckaineer]

Let me rephrase what I said. I was't saying meaning Texas shouldn't open up, but saying they are Texas and they probably think they don't have to.

As far as Bowslby is concerned, he is not going to come out in public in say the BIG12 is ready to expand if the votes are not there. It just makes the BIG12 look more dysfunctional (which is is)

Saying there is no issues on how to handle tier 3 contracts is easy, doing it is another issue. There are huge costs involved involved in buying out all the different contracts/ These costs on top of other network startup costs will keep the BIG12 network from being profitable for many years. In addition there is an unequal amount of money being made on these rights with Texas leading the way. Will Texas be compensated more for giving up the LHN? Will WVU be commentated more than ISU, TT, TCU and others since their rights are bringing in more money per year?

The easiest way to handle all of this is to plan for expansion and network to start in 2024 when everything is expiring. All of that assuming the BIG12 is not at a disadvantage for having 10 team CCG game.

Bowlsby isn't holding a vote until the schools are agreed upon and offers out. That hasn't occurred, some-but again not all-don't want expansion while some are not decided.

The leaders of the schools and conference are not stupid. Ending tier 3 deals is not anymore of an issue for them than it has been for anyone else. That's one reason time is essential here. Some tier 3 contracts will be running out in the next few years--all by 2025 other than the LHN. You don't want schools renewing tier 3 deals if a conference network is on the way. Boren stated in his comments (get the impression you never read his interview?) that Texas would be compensated to guarantee the same money they are promised now. Other schools like WVU, OU and Kansas also have a higher tier 3 payout. All that will be worked out as everyone else has that has a network.

You don't wait until contracts are up to take care of all these issues. It will take a couple of seasons more than likely to extricate any schools, it will take time to get new contracts, create a network and get it up and running and so forth and so on.

It would be foolish to wait until you are under the gun of a contract to take action on securing your future. If they try to wait until then it will already be too late.

 

[Rootmaster]

Buck and Steve...Geez guys this thread is starting to sound like a private argument over a couple cold ones down at the local watering hole.

 

[Mountaineer Steve]

Its not my opinion, its the statement the president of the University of Oklahoma has made about the situation.

Get it though. You don't believe the conference is at a disadvantage-even though the playoff committee and the commissioner and other conference leaders says it is. You don't believe the conference will get more revenue for expansion even though one of the top leaders in the conference states it will-oh and he also happens to be on the expansion committee. You don't think that expansion would be good for WVU even though the president of WVU is for expansion and wants up to 14 teams. You don't think there are any candidates that can be added even though the committee made up of WVU's president, Baylor's president and Oklahoma's president have researched the matter for well over a year along with media consultants and identified 6 or 7 candidates that would be additive. And now you don't believe that Oklahoma is going to do anything when the president of that school has stated its time or his school will have to consider different options. Oh, but you do believe a conference that has all its rights owned by the primary network for college sports, has a far larger footprint than the BIG 12, has been getting better tv ratings the last couple of years and has won a championship or played for one three years running is going to collapse, and for some reason their schools are going to want to come to a conference that if they do as you want will stand still over the next 9 years and just wait for schools to flock to it (even though they'll still have two years remaining on a grant of rights).

OU isn't going anywhere,
Number 1 because of the GOR they can't do anything until 2024.
Number 2, if they went they would want to go to BIG10 and the BIG10 isn't going to take because they are not an AAU school nor will they be for years and years to come.

 

[skygusty]

It's all about pressure on Texas to let go of the LHN. Chess, gamesmanship, politics. Texas could go anywhere they wanted. but they won't take the LHN with them so they aren't leaving either. I hope they can work out a compromise. We need a strong Big12 and it is stronger if these two schools can get on the same page.

 

[Buckaineer]

West Virginia president says Big 12 expansion to 12 schools is 'most likely'

http://www.sbnation.com/college-foo...sident-gordon-gee-big-12-expansion-12-schools

 

[Papillion]

It's all about pressure on Texas to let go of the LHN. Chess, gamesmanship, politics. Texas could go anywhere they wanted. but they won't take the LHN with them so they aren't leaving either. I hope they can work out a compromise. We need a strong Big12 and it is stronger if these two schools can get on the same page.

The thing is the Tier 3 rights were designed for each school to make money on their own after the first two tiers were locked up and settled. Each school could do what they want with the "scraps" or events, etc. that weren't covered under contract by the networks.

Now some schools are crying because UT makes more than the others? Well, so what, it shouldn't have been a surprise. But as far as the LHN clashing with a Big 12n, there's always a way to make things work while still allowing the schools to make what they want on the side, like maybe a Tier 4? But I don't see UT giving up the LHN unless they are compensated just like these conferences where their CCG is lucrative giving that up to create some giant, ridiculous playoff system like the NFL. Not going to happen. The SEC is not going to give that up.

 

[Buckaineer]

The thing is the Tier 3 rights were designed for each school to make money on their own after the first two tiers were locked up and settled. Each school could do what they want with the "scraps" or events, etc. that weren't covered under contract by the networks.

Now some schools are crying because UT makes more than the others? Well, so what, it shouldn't have been a surprise. But as far as the LHN clashing with a Big 12n, there's always a way to make things work while still allowing the schools to make what they want on the side, like maybe a Tier 4? But I don't see UT giving up the LHN unless they are compensated just like these conferences where their CCG is lucrative giving that up to create some giant, ridiculous playoff system like the NFL. Not going to happen. The SEC is not going to give that up.

The issue isn't that UT makes more than others. The issue is having a strong conference top to bottom so that everyone benefits in the arrangement. In other conferences, everyone shares in the media rights of the schools in the conference. In the BIG 12 some are doing fantastic, some are on par or a little better than schools in other leagues. Several though, are beginning to fall behind. This gap is going to continue to grow. Some of the schools now even or slightly better than the other P5s are going to slip some as new media rights deals push other leagues higher in revenues.

This doesn't help the BIG 12 to be a stable league or help all members to be as successful as possible.

Creating a conference network brings everyone up to the financial situation of other conferences and gives them the chance to be as successful as anyone. Texas' financial status is not affected. The question then becomes why would UT be opposed to the rest of their conference having success as well?

 

[Buckaineer]

OU isn't going anywhere,
Number 1 because of the GOR they can't do anything until 2024.
Number 2, if they went they would want to go to BIG10 and the BIG10 isn't going to take because they are not an AAU school nor will they be for years and years to come.

You are naive. If OU leaves in 2024-25 that is devastating to the BIG 12. If unhappy enough then they may very well attempt to leave before that--also devastating to the BIG 12. The Pac 12 and SEC don't require AAU status and both would accept the Sooners. The Big 10 more than likely would as well--its a huge brand.

OU has announced if the conference isn't strengthened they are going to consider other options.

 

[skygusty]

Texas' 20 yr contract with ESPN guarantees them minimum average 15 million payout. They are in their 4th year. They expect to get 70% of revenue once infrastructure is paid for. The money to pay 9 to 11 schools out of the proceeds of a Big12 network either comes out of Texas pocket or out of ESPNs pocket. LHN is already in 65 million homes according to this article. http://www.sbnation.com/college-football/2015/6/5/8733131/texas-longhorn-network-money-revenue

 

[Buckaineer]

Texas' 20 yr contract with ESPN guarantees them minimum average 15 million payout. They are in their 4th year. They expect to get 70% of revenue once infrastructure is paid for. The money to pay 9 to 11 schools out of the proceeds of a Big12 network either comes out of Texas pocket or out of ESPNs pocket. LHN is already in 65 million homes according to this article. http://www.sbnation.com/college-football/2015/6/5/8733131/texas-longhorn-network-money-revenue

Its clear that you are desperate to paint a picture for some reason that there is a problem here for the BIG 12. The leaders of the conference are aware of the LHN contract and believe that they will be able to keep UT "whole" while at the same time converting, merging, blending-whatever the method, the LHN into a BIG 12 network. I'm sure the media will fill you in on what details they can once its happened. There's no reason for you to worry or pretend it can't be done. Okahoma's president has first hand direct knowledge of the situation, its really rather silly to pretend he is "guessing" or just making wild claims without supporting evidence. After all, he meets face to face with the leaders of Texas--pretty sure they'll ask him and the other members "how"-and again face to face. The conference has been studying these issues over five years now after all.

 

[Buckaineer]

Austin American Statesmen's Kirk Bohls on BIG 12 expansion:

excerpt:
1. If you put a gun to my head — and I’m sure many readers would like to — I would bet the Big 12 expands in the next five years. It almost seems inevitable even though many in the league feel content to keep the membership at 10.
http://www.mystatesman.com/news/sports/bohls-big-12-expansion-likely-at-some-point/np7y7/

 

[Mountaineer Steve]

Austin American Statesmen's Kirk Bohls on BIG 12 expansion:

excerpt:
1. If you put a gun to my head — and I’m sure many readers would like to — I would bet the Big 12 expands in the next five years. It almost seems inevitable even though many in the league feel content to keep the membership at 10.
http://www.mystatesman.com/news/sports/bohls-big-12-expansion-likely-at-some-point/np7y7/

His opinion is not relevant.

 

[Mountaineer Steve]

His opinion is not relevant.

TCU AD held a town hall, Not in favor of expansion

Go to the 50 min 50 second mark
http://www.gofrogs.com/collegesportslive/?media=518655

 

[Orlaco]

Austin American Statesmen's Kirk Bohls on BIG 12 expansion:

excerpt:
1. If you put a gun to my head — and I’m sure many readers would like to — I would bet the Big 12 expands in the next five years. It almost seems inevitable even though many in the league feel content to keep the membership at 10.
http://www.mystatesman.com/news/sports/bohls-big-12-expansion-likely-at-some-point/np7y7/

Ummm.... ...so he needs a gun to his head before he can express the opinion that the Big 12 will expand in the next 5 years ?

Guess what ? ....most people would say anything with a gun to their head.

 

[Mountaineer Steve]

The issue isn't that UT makes more than others. The issue is having a strong conference top to bottom so that everyone benefits in the arrangement. In other conferences, everyone shares in the media rights of the schools in the conference. In the BIG 12 some are doing fantastic, some are on par or a little better than schools in other leagues. Several though, are beginning to fall behind. This gap is going to continue to grow. Some of the schools now even or slightly better than the other P5s are going to slip some as new media rights deals push other leagues higher in revenues.

This doesn't help the BIG 12 to be a stable league or help all members to be as successful as possible.

Creating a conference network brings everyone up to the financial situation of other conferences and gives them the chance to be as successful as anyone. Texas' financial status is not affected. The question then becomes why would UT be opposed to the rest of their conference having success as well?

You must be from socialist France, because I guarantee you Texas is from capitalist US and does not think that way. They believe as long as they are the highest earning team in the land, we don't need to expand and start a conference network.

So Texas is going to vote down expansion. They only need to get 2 more programs to vote no, to kill expansion. The expansion committee has an uphill battle because the votes just are not there yet.

 

[skygusty]

I just want to know which one of you guys has such an incredible amount of influence that Buck is working 24-7 to get your head rammed up Borens ass as far as his is? Don't know why he works so hard to shout down anyone with a different opinion but it seems that he is truly desperate. At least 3 threads on expansion started by him and a retort to every post made. Hundreds if not thousands of posts made by him echoing Borens words. If it was so obvious and clear cut, changes would have been done months ago and there would be more widespread support from other presidents. If the Big12 didn't have internal disagreement on this they wouldn't have asked for the deregulation amendment. Aren't you guys aren't curious as to why Buck is doing such a hard sell on this board? Won't the Big12 leadership meet in a couple of weeks and work things out one way or another? If you are a WVU fan you probably have your own personal opinion as to which way you'd like things to go, but in the end, you will probably live with whatever is decided. Buck seems to have a personal financial stake in this. F&ck it dude, I'm going to watch some Mountaineer basketball.

 

[Buckaineer]

You must be from socialist France, because I guarantee you Texas is from capitalist US and does not think that way. They believe as long as they are the highest earning team in the land, we don't need to expand and start a conference network.

So Texas is going to vote down expansion. They only need to get 2 more programs to vote no, to kill expansion. The expansion committee has an uphill battle because the votes just are not there yet.

How can you guarantee anything about Texas? You can't. Texas is interested in being the top revenue generator and they can't do that by holding back the BIG 12 financially. Their best position is to have as strong a league as possible because it gives them the best chance for success. Playing multiple Texas schools and Oklahoma. Playing some good to very good conference mates in other areas such as WVU and Kansas State. Having the BIG 12 able to generate tv $$ that along with a network allow Texas to remain in as high a revenue state as anyone anywhere. Having a strong conference so that Texas sos isn't damaged --and that comes from high revenues for all and strong recruiting from all--and all the recruits can't come from Texas. Exposure is something Texas likes and getting more in more states isn't going to be bad for them in any way shape or form.


There are many reasons to expect Texas to desire BIG 12 expansion and none really why they would oppose it. There's no benefit to seeing multiple conference schools fall down in revenues compared to other conferences. Besides, many reports are that multiple coaches are not all that happy with the LHN and the time demands there anyway.

 

[Buckaineer]

TCU AD held a town hall, Not in favor of expansion

Go to the 50 min 50 second mark
http://www.gofrogs.com/collegesportslive/?media=518655

TCU has always been the most prominent NO vote. Last year their HC said he didn't want to deal with more travel.

 

[Buckaineer]

I just want to know which one of you guys has such an incredible amount of influence that Buck is working 24-7 to get your head rammed up Borens ass as far as his is? Don't know why he works so hard to shout down anyone with a different opinion but it seems that he is truly desperate. At least 3 threads on expansion started by him and a retort to every post made. Hundreds if not thousands of posts made by him echoing Borens words. If it was so obvious and clear cut, changes would have been done months ago and there would be more widespread support from other presidents. If the Big12 didn't have internal disagreement on this they wouldn't have asked for the deregulation amendment. Aren't you guys aren't curious as to why Buck is doing such a hard sell on this board? Won't the Big12 leadership meet in a couple of weeks and work things out one way or another? If you are a WVU fan you probably have your own personal opinion as to which way you'd like things to go, but in the end, you will probably live with whatever is decided. Buck seems to have a personal financial stake in this. F&ck it dude, I'm going to watch some Mountaineer basketball.

Have always found curious the posters that run around on message boards desperate to keep people from discussing a subject. Seriously--what is your agenda? You keep insinuating I have one, yet I'm not trying to stop anyone from discussing anything--you are. Why? Why is it so important to you that no one discuss a very relevant situation to the BIG 12 and WVU? What's in it for you if you get people to not talk about it?

 

[michaelwalkerbr]

B12 making the playoffs extended any move for at least 2 more years.

But since we are opening this debate (again):

UCF is the best choice. I really don't know what happened this year, but they have been successful on a tiny budget. They have a huge student body. Great recruiting area. A great adjacent market (Tampa) to pull from demographically as well (since USF has hit the toilet). Any discussion that doesn't start there is lacking in foresight. They would gladly take a 1/2 share for the next decade to get into a P5.

Cincy is the second best (closer margin from rest of field for #2). Less TVs, but still quite good. Good recruiting. Close for WVU. Again, they would take a 1/2 share for a decade if that's what it would take.

BYU: If they weren't in the opposite direction of where the conference needs to go, then they would be the top choice. They aren't, so they are 3rd. They do remind me of ND-wannabes. High drama and entitlements galore. We don't need that.

Memphis: Good recruiting. OK TV market. Essentially brings a bowl game and FedEx money with them. Lack of track record in football make this hard to place higher than 4. I would flip a coin between them and BYU.

UConn: Awful stadium. Good market. Small school. Great BBall but spotty football. Will they make the moves to be a P5 school? Easily the 5th of this group.

I agree with much of what you are saying, but there are other points to be considered. WVU has made a very impressive number and quality of facility upgrades since joining the Big 12 and others are on the way including a greatly expanded and modernized training room. (for injured players). Some of these facility upgrades were internally driven, but many were Big 12 mandated.

The same will hold true for any school invited to join the conference. USF has great potential, but it is still potential until the school administration decides to join the big boys. Cincinnati has been preparing for a jump to a Power 5 conference to the tune of nearly $100 million dollars.

These schools have been studied and analyzed to death, it's time for the Big 12 to pick two and let them fight their way into competitiveness. We do not need two more top ten teams to compete with, that is ridiculous. We do not need bottom dwellers, either. We need two that can start out where Nebraska and Texas A&M were when they left, middle of the pack teams.

 

[Charleston Mountie]

I agree with much of what you are saying, but there are other points to be considered. WVU has made a very impressive number and quality of facility upgrades since joining the Big 12 and others are on the way including a greatly expanded and modernized training room. (for injured players). Some of these facility upgrades were internally driven, but many were Big 12 mandated.

The same will hold true for any school invited to join the conference. USF has great potential, but it is still potential until the school administration decides to join the big boys. Cincinnati has been preparing for a jump to a Power 5 conference to the tune of nearly $100 million dollars.

These schools have been studied and analyzed to death, it's time for the Big 12 to pick two and let them fight their way into competitiveness. We do not need two more top ten teams to compete with, that is ridiculous. We do not need bottom dwellers, either. We need two that can start out where Nebraska and Texas A&M were when they left, middle of the pack teams.

You echo what I have been putting forth. I am not sure the Big-12 wants to add a third region to its footprint by moving into Florida when it already has one geography gap to handle. Cincinnati would do well to plug that hole and as you say, they have invested 100 million in upgrades to meet this level of commitment and more has been planned.

I think most can accept Cincinnati as a new member, but who the pairing would be is where it gets arguable. Everyone has a 2nd "good" choice and none of those have a consensus.

 

[Mountaineer Steve]

TCU has always been the most prominent NO vote. Last year their HC said he didn't want to deal with more travel.

Yep, and with Texas a no vote all they have need is 1 more vote to kill expansion. And if they fail that, they can wreak havoc during the vote to choose a program.

 

[michaelwalkerbr]

I don't mean to sound redneck, but it seems as though Lyons needs to take the TCU rep aside and have a little 'talk'! Lyons is big enough to do it! The other option would be for the little guy in the bow-tie to talk to him. He seems to have a way with people.

 

[Mountaineer Steve]

Have always found curious the posters that run around on message boards desperate to keep people from discussing a subject. Seriously--what is your agenda? You keep insinuating I have one, yet I'm not trying to stop anyone from discussing anything--you are. Why? Why is it so important to you that no one discuss a very relevant situation to the BIG 12 and WVU? What's in it for you if you get people to not talk about it?

And yet another point you and I agree on. There seems to be a few posters that exert a great deal of effort trying to close down these discussions. I have ask why they care so much. Nobody forces them to read the posts so why do they think they are being harmed?

 

[Mountaineer Steve]

How can you guarantee anything about Texas? You can't. Texas is interested in being the top revenue generator and they can't do that by holding back the BIG 12 financially. Their best position is to have as strong a league as possible because it gives them the best chance for success. Playing multiple Texas schools and Oklahoma. Playing some good to very good conference mates in other areas such as WVU and Kansas State. Having the BIG 12 able to generate tv $$ that along with a network allow Texas to remain in as high a revenue state as anyone anywhere. Having a strong conference so that Texas sos isn't damaged --and that comes from high revenues for all and strong recruiting from all--and all the recruits can't come from Texas. Exposure is something Texas likes and getting more in more states isn't going to be bad for them in any way shape or form.


There are many reasons to expect Texas to desire BIG 12 expansion and none really why they would oppose it. There's no benefit to seeing multiple conference schools fall down in revenues compared to other conferences. Besides, many reports are that multiple coaches are not all that happy with the LHN and the time demands there anyway.

I know we will continue to banter back on forth on this, but it really does not matter what we think. I predict that the BIG12 will not vote for expansion because the votes won't be there, and you will come up with some fanciful reason as to why it was delayed and continue to say it is inevitable which will keep discussions going forward.

I further predict that the BIG12 will expand in time, but will do so at a very methodical pace that will coincide with the next round of TV negations and the expiration of all but LHN 3rd tier contracts.

However, most believe there is a very bleak outlook for money being generated from network TV like ESPN, CBS and FOX. Their costs have exploded while the revenue has shrunk do to millions of cutting the cord. The explosion of dollars paid by the networks they can't afford has expanded to the point of the bubble bursting. As I said in a previous post, even the BIG will be impacted somewhat. Yes the BIG, is going to get a nice bump, but it won't be near what they were originally projecting.

 

[Buckaineer]

I know we will continue to banter back on forth on this, but it really does not matter what we think. I predict that the BIG12 will not vote for expansion because the votes won't be there, and you will come up with some fanciful reason as to why it was delayed and continue to say it is inevitable which will keep discussions going forward.

I further predict that the BIG12 will expand in time, but will do so at a very methodical pace that will coincide with the next round of TV negations and the expiration of all but LHN 3rd tier contracts.

However, most believe there is a very bleak outlook for money being generated from network TV like ESPN, CBS and FOX. Their costs have exploded while the revenue has shrunk do to millions of cutting the cord. The explosion of dollars paid by the networks they can't afford has expanded to the point of the bubble bursting. As I said in a previous post, even the BIG will be impacted somewhat. Yes the BIG, is going to get a nice bump, but it won't be near what they were originally projecting.

I see two possible outcomes. The conference will decide to expand counciding with the Big Tens new contracts. A CCG will be enacted and there will be a significant bump in payouts. A conference network will be arranged that gradually phases in the LHN. Either the networks will renegotiate the Big 12 deal to extend much further out, or in 2025 the conference will redo the existing contracts with a much higher payout than possible now. In 2025-2027 the new BIG 12 will work to add ACC schools as that conference runs out of financial means to keep pace and FSU and others decide to move on.

Or, the conference will not expand, leading to yearly renatches which will knock the BIG 12 out if the playoffs numerous years. Negative press will escalate, recruiting will drop off, the conference will be offered a lowball contract after years of non competitive teams nationally and lower tv ratings than others. OU will have been in the planning stages of departing for years and will do so with OSU to the Pac 12- quickly followed by UT and Texas Tech. Kansas and Iowa State will be absorbed in the Big 10 as they are AAU. Baylor and TCU will make the SEC a 16 team conference. Kansas State and WVU will be left searching for homes as the ACC works to add UConn and Notre Dame to finish off their 16 team league.

You will be claiming all the while this is in the works that the ACC is falling apart any day now so the BIG 12 should hold off doing anything.

 

[Rootmaster]

Fight the good fight Buck. Most don't seem to get that your expansion threads are discussing the most important issue facing WVU athletics. Seems simple: a bigger, stronger media footprint Big 12-2=10 is critical to Mountaineer football's future. But, some are threatened by new folks moving into the neighborhood apparently!