Expansion

[Buckaineer]

2020 is Just a guess on my part. Once you make the move to expand there is no going back.

The BIG12 did not spend all this time and effort getting this amendment changed if they planed to expand all along. If the 10 team 1 vs 2 CCG dereg amendment passes , expansion is dead for the time being to allow CCG to play out several years and determine if conference is still at a disadvantage. If there is a perceived disadvantage the the possibility of expansion is back on the table.

I agree it is not likely the BIG12 will expand during TV contract negotiations assuming the conference is NOT at a disadvantage. However it is the next logical time if anything is to take place. I also agree, current ratings and on field (bowl) success has not been great. If TV per team payout does not keep up with the PAC and ACC, the only other option is creating a real BIG12 network. For this to happen the BIG12 has to expand it's footprint

During tv contract negotiations its too late to begin trying to add teams. Any additions would have to take place prior to that to have any positive effect on the negotiations. In 2024 when the BIG 12 renegotiates again, there won't be any different assortment of teams to pick from and the existing pool is likely to be very diminished in stature by that time. Other than that the next financial gain opportunity is the bowls contracts being redone in 2019. After that end of the Pac 12 grant of rights 2023-2024, and then end of the current BIG 12 grant of rights in 2025.

The BIG 12 has always throughout the entire process stated that they wanted a rules change so they could have options. They didn't want a rules change with amendments--they wanted to be able to have a conference without divisions no matter how large, and to be able to select a champion however they saw fit to do so. Expansion has always been an option and that isn't going to change but becomes less likely if they adopt the CCG at 10 teams.

A couple years of failure with that new model though could quickly spell change. What is most likely to cause change has always been the money issue--and in a year or so they'll know what the Big Ten is going to be getting and if that is going to be a problem.

 

[Mountaineer Steve]

During tv contract negotiations its too late to begin trying to add teams. Any additions would have to take place prior to that to have any positive effect on the negotiations. In 2024 when the BIG 12 renegotiates again, there won't be any different assortment of teams to pick from and the existing pool is likely to be very diminished in stature by that time. Other than that the next financial gain opportunity is the bowls contracts being redone in 2019. After that end of the Pac 12 grant of rights 2023-2024, and then end of the current BIG 12 grant of rights in 2025.

The BIG 12 has always throughout the entire process stated that they wanted a rules change so they could have options. They didn't want a rules change with amendments--they wanted to be able to have a conference without divisions no matter how large, and to be able to select a champion however they saw fit to do so. Expansion has always been an option and that isn't going to change but becomes less likely if they adopt the CCG at 10 teams.

A couple years of failure with that new model though could quickly spell change. What is most likely to cause change has always been the money issue--and in a year or so they'll know what the Big Ten is going to be getting and if that is going to be a problem.

I would buy your 2nd paragraph had the BIG12 and BIG10 not come with and submitted a compromise in the original BIG10 amendment which allows conference with LESS than 10 teams to play 1 vs 2.

As per your 3rd paragraph, from a financial standpoint as things move forward, we will probably see the BIG10 and SEC per team payout outweigh that of PAC, ACC and BIG12. The question is will the 3 conference with a smaller payout be satisfied, or will there be movement to consulate power via expansion.

 

[Mountaineer Steve]

Done deal, expansion is over for foreseeable future.

The following was adopted with the Council's vote:
One conference championship football game conducted in either of the following ways:

i) A game between division champions of a member conference that is divided into two divisions (as equally balanced as possible), each of which conducts round-robin, regular-season competition among the members of that division; or,

ii) A game between the top two teams in the conference standings following a full round-robin regular-season schedule of competition among all members of the conference.”

http://www.big12sports.com/ViewArticle.dbml?DB_OEM_ID=10410&ATCLID=210632683

 

[skygusty]

Done deal, expansion is over for foreseeable future.

The following was adopted with the Council's vote:
One conference championship football game conducted in either of the following ways:

i) A game between division champions of a member conference that is divided into two divisions (as equally balanced as possible), each of which conducts round-robin, regular-season competition among the members of that division; or,

ii) A game between the top two teams in the conference standings following a full round-robin regular-season schedule of competition among all members of the conference.”

http://www.big12sports.com/ViewArticle.dbml?DB_OEM_ID=10410&ATCLID=210632683

I am expecting another 8 pages as to why expansion isn't dead, because they haven't said it is dead, and how they are dumb not to expand and what a great addition Cinncy will be and how TV will do this, and how money will do that, and basically how misinformed the leadership is and how misinformed the fans are and how WVU has to control its destiny by doing god knows what before 2025, and how disadvantaged we are and how data points aren't weighted. Yada Yada. Meanwhile, Baylor is already an early favorite to make the playoffs next year, the BIG12 is kicking butt in basketball and Marshall has been forced off the WVU welfare system.

 

[Charleston Mountie]

Done deal, expansion is over for foreseeable future.

The following was adopted with the Council's vote:
One conference championship football game conducted in either of the following ways:

i) A game between division champions of a member conference that is divided into two divisions (as equally balanced as possible), each of which conducts round-robin, regular-season competition among the members of that division; or,

ii) A game between the top two teams in the conference standings following a full round-robin regular-season schedule of competition among all members of the conference.”

http://www.big12sports.com/ViewArticle.dbml?DB_OEM_ID=10410&ATCLID=210632683

I would be hesitant in drawing that conclusion. Expansion is ongoing in some form at all times, even if just within the P5 membership. The best that can be said, imo, is that the air of desperation has cleared, expansion is still coming. How far into the future is anyone's guess, but again imo, it is less than 18 months away. I fully expect Cincinnati to be in the Big-12 by the summer of 2017 for play in fall of 2018. Who joins them, I do not know, but I do not think it will be BYU or any other western school.

 

[Mountaineer Steve]

I am expecting another 8 pages as to why expansion isn't dead, because they haven't said it is dead, and how they are dumb not to expand and what a great addition Cinncy will be and how TV will do this, and how money will do that, and basically how misinformed the leadership is and how misinformed the fans are and how WVU has to control its destiny by doing god knows what before 2025, and how disadvantaged we are and how data points aren't weighted. Yada Yada. Meanwhile, Baylor is already an early favorite to make the playoffs next year, the BIG12 is kicking butt in basketball and Marshall has been forced off the WVU welfare system.

There is no doubt in my mind that Buck will say expansion isn't dead, and that the vote means nothing, but clearly it does. Bowlsby was to the point when he said the other day, We (as in the BIG12 super majority) does not want to expand to have a CCG.

BIG12 might expand down the road if they want to create their own network, but short of that, I doubt they will make a move

 

[skygusty]

There is no doubt in my mind that Buck will say expansion isn't dead, and that the vote means nothing, but clearly it does. Bowlsby was to the point when he said the other day, We (as in the BIG12 super majority) does not want to expand to have a CCG.

BIG12 might expand down the road if they want to create their own network, but short of that, I doubt they will make a move

You should post this as a new thread. I truly think lots of fans will be truly interested but have given up on this thread as hopelessly long and repetitive.

 

[GetYaNumbersUp]

Maybe Buck will finally shut the hell up. I can't believe someone is so obsessed with a bunch of suits making money off TV contracts and inviting crappy schools to join our conference.

 

[Mountaineer Steve]

I would be hesitant in drawing that conclusion. Expansion is ongoing in some form at all times, even if just within the P5 membership. The best that can be said, imo, is that the air of desperation has cleared, expansion is still coming. How far into the future is anyone's guess, but again imo, it is less than 18 months away. I fully expect Cincinnati to be in the Big-12 by the summer of 2017 for play in fall of 2018. Who joins them, I do not know, but I do not think it will be BYU or any other western school.

Ha, seriously? The BIG12 went through all the time effort and trouble to get this legislation passed only to expand the 1st year after holding the 1st 10 team CCG? I know you state IYO, but what world does YO live in? The BIG12 does not have a super majority (8 votes) to pass expansion and now that they can hold a 10 team championships, they will never get the support, unless it is for BIG12 network.

 

[Charleston Mountie]

Ha, seriously? The BIG12 went through all the time effort and trouble to get this legislation passed only to expand the 1st year after holding the 1st 10 team CCG? I know you state IYO, but what world does YO live in? The BIG12 does not have a super majority (8 votes) to pass expansion and now that they can hold a 10 team championships, they will never get the support, unless it is for BIG12 network.

With all due respect, this was not the legislation they "went through all the time and trouble to get." So, yes, I think there is still more that the Big-12 wants and they have to figure out the best way to get that. Obviously, the path of no expansion is dead. This is as good as it gets and this is not as good as we need - hence the remark, "we got something for our efforts and have a compromise of a sort." There is more to come even if you just consider the Big-12 in a vacuum, which is obviously not the case. The SEC and Big-Ten are not done expanding. Both desire schools in the ACC and when that happens, the dam will break again. The Big Ten is entering into new tv discussions.

 

[Buckaineer]

From ESPN--and some of you should read the bold highlight here:

excerpt:
In essence, the proposal was almost exclusively a vote about the future of the Big 12 and whether the conference would be given the green light to implement a championship game at its own discretion.

A “no” vote would’ve forced the Big 12 to expand by two schools in order to add a title game, pitting the two divisional winners against one another. But in light of the proposal’s adoption, any expansion talk will probably be put back on the back burner for the time being and the debate on whether the Big 12 should re-institute a conference championship game will be propelled to the forefront.

http://espn.go.com/blog/big12/post/...s-big-12-to-decide-if-it-controls-path-to-cfp

As I've stated, the deregulation doesn't END expansion, just pushes it back so that it isn't immediately necessary--which is just what the conference wanted. After they know what the Big Ten is getting, things may change again.

 

[Buckaineer]

Also, just as I have stated:

excerpt:
Of course, there would be drawbacks to adding a championship game with just 10 teams.

After all, a conference championship game in a round-robin format would be an odd fit, and could force some unnatural rematches, as it would have this past season. Oklahoma, which defeated Oklahoma State 58-23 in Stillwater, would’ve had to turn around and play the Cowboys again. That would have done little for Oklahoma except put the Sooners at risk of losing and costing the Big 12 its chance at the playoff.

“I don't think that's productive,” Oklahoma State coach Mike Gundy told ESPN.com last week. “I don't see what you get out of that.”

http://espn.go.com/blog/big12/post/...s-big-12-to-decide-if-it-controls-path-to-cfp

 

[Buckaineer]

Again on the expansion front-from partner FOX Sports:

excerpt:
Had the conference championship measure failed, Big 12 expansion may have become imminent. Now, if that happens at all, it might be several years in the future.

http://www.foxsports.com/college-fo...aylor-bears-tcu-horned-frogs-expansion-011316

Notice that "dead", "will not happen", etc. are not included in ESPN's or FOX's description of BIG 12 expansion.

They are the BIG 12s tv partners btw.

The article goes on further:
excerpt:
But let’s say for hypothetical sake that the conference does go ahead and stage a title game beginning in 2017, thus resolving that issue once and for all. The conference must still deal with its ongoing elephant in the (meeting) room — whether or not to expand.

Wednesday’s vote eliminates any urgency in that direction, but nor does it necessarily assure the league stays at 10 teams for the long haul. Oklahoma president David Boren, an expansion proponent, believes the conference is “psychologically disadvantaged” surrounded by 14-team mega-conferences. And while he’s not believed to hold the majority opinion in the room, he’s not alone, either.

 

[Woody in Helvetia]

There is no doubt in my mind that Buck will say expansion isn't dead, and that the vote means nothing, but clearly it does. Bowlsby was to the point when he said the other day, We (as in the BIG12 super majority) does not want to expand to have a CCG.

BIG12 might expand down the road if they want to create their own network, but short of that, I doubt they will make a move

Bowlsby can talk all he wants to but there are TWO college Presidents that have publicly stated that they are in favor of expansion. And I do believe that there are a few more that feel the same way. And I am not sure that there are enough votes to pass a conference championship game for the current membership. The Big 12 has the smallest television footprint of the 5 Power conferences - that is a problem.

 

[Buckaineer]

And this from ABC News:

The right to hold a title game with 10 schools likely eases the pressure to expand, something a majority of Big 12 schools haven't wanted to do in recent years.

However, Bowlsby wouldn't rule out expansion.


"We are constantly monitoring the landscape," Bowlsby said. "What it does is keep us from being forced to expand."
http://abcnews.go.com/Sports/wireStory/ncaa-votes-big-12-hold-football-title-game-36275151
http://abcnews.go.com/Sports/wireStory/ncaa-votes-big-12-hold-football-title-game-36275151

 

[Buckaineer]

Bowlsby can talk all he wants to but there are TWO college Presidents that have publicly stated that they are in favor of expansion. And I do believe that there are a few more that feel the same way. And I am not sure that there are enough votes to pass a conference championship game for the current membership. The Big 12 has the smallest television footprint of the 5 Power conferences - that is a problem.

You are correct in that a CCG with 10 teams is not a slam dunk:
excerpt:
How the Big 12 would decide who plays the game would still have to be determined. Bowlsby said the new rule only requires the "top two" teams.

Selling the idea to each Big 12 school may not be a slam dunk. Football coaches may not like the guaranteed rematch of a regular-season game.

For example, this past season, Oklahoma and Oklahoma State, the top two teams at the end of the regular season, could have played in a title game just a week or two after the Sooners beat the Cowboys in the Bedlam rivalry showdown.

"That's hard to swallow to say now you gotta go beat them again to be the conference champion. What if they split?" Bowlsby said. "There will be some years we'd be glad to not have a championship game, and some years when we wish we had a 13th game."

At Texas, one of the league's traditional powers hasn't won a title since 2009, President Greg Fenves and new athletic director Mike Perrin issued a joint statement saying the change "opens up a lot of possibilities that we need to look at closely."
http://abcnews.go.com/Sports/wireStory/ncaa-votes-big-12-hold-football-title-game-36275151

 

[Buckaineer]

Oklahoma's president on the CCG deregulation:

In a statement to the Oklahoma Daily student newspaper, Boren indicated that the Big 12 would remain "disadvantaged" relative to the other Power 5 conferences, even if it added a conference championship game without also expanding.

"The Big 12 is disadvantaged when compared to the other conferences in three ways. We do not have at least twelve members, we do not have a conference network, and we do not have a championship game," Boren said in the statement. "I think that all three of these disadvantages need to be addressed at the same time. Addressing only one without addressing all three will not be adequate to improve the strength of the conference."

http://espn.go.com/blog/big12/post/...advantaged-even-after-title-game-deregulation

 

[Buckaineer]

Much like Boren, WVU's AD Lyons sees a BIG 12 network as an important component to the future:

excerpt:
Big 12 expansion:
After Lyons predicted the NCAA vote would provide ”a roadmap as to where we’re the conference is headed,” the Big 12 isn’t compelled to grow in order to stage a title game alongside other leagues.


However, Lyons estimated he discusses expansion “probably once every couple weeks” with WVU president Gordon Gee, a member of the Big 12 expansion committee.


“It’s in the finding stages,” said Lyons, who suggested growth would hinge upon the ability of new members to help establish a network channel.

http://wvmetronews.com/2016/01/13/lyons-talks-big-12-title-game-expansion-coliseum-beer-sales/

 

[Mountaineer Steve]

Bowlsby can talk all he wants to but there are TWO college Presidents that have publicly stated that they are in favor of expansion. And I do believe that there are a few more that feel the same way. And I am not sure that there are enough votes to pass a conference championship game for the current membership. The Big 12 has the smallest television footprint of the 5 Power conferences - that is a problem.

I know you think I am anti expansion, and really I am not. Expansion, especially to the East would be a huge boost to WVU.

I will bolster your point a bit, but go back to the real issue at hand.

Actually 3 not 2 Presidents have come out publicly in favor of expansion. OU, WVU, and Baylor.
For the most part, everything you have posted is still correct. The BIG12, still has too small of a footprint, and will be at a major $ disadvantage to the SEC and BIG without a solid network.

Some years a guaranteed rematch is going to be a disadvantage, and some years it will be an advantage. Last year it would have been an advantage since the winner of a Baylor, TCU would have certainly put the winner into the playoff.

This past would not have hurt assuming OU won, but would have been a huge blow if OSU had won.

The biggest disadvantage I see with the 10 team CCG is it pretty much eliminates the BIG12 from ever getting two teams into the playoff. This will be more prominent if CCG expands to 8 teams, which it probably will.

The real issue at hand
Your argument falls flat because you continue to think that all the BIG12 presidents and programs think rationally or even in the same line with each other. The BIG12 is the most dysfunctional, conference in the history of conferences. It is probably even more dysfunctional than the BIG East was. From a competitive stand point the BIG12 was on par or better than any conference in the nation, yet the dis-functionality and discourse almost brought the conference to an end.

First the conference needs 8 votes to pass expansion even if they could agree on teams, I don't see that happening. Throw in the fact that the conference can't agree on team, and you have a real mess on your hands.

Texas has been and always will be in it for themselves. They know that no matter what happens to the BIG12, they will be in a power conference.

You can't just dismiss Bowlsby comments because 3 presidents have publicly stated the need to expand. He knows the votes are not currently there and is why he keeps saying (We) don't want to expand. The CCG rule makes it even less likely the votes are not going to be there to expand.

 

[Buckaineer]

Oklahoma's president--David Boren wants expansion IMMEDIATELY:

excerpt:
Boren says the best way for the Big 12 to proceed is to first invite two schools and raise membership to 12.

“We have been, as a group, looking at expansion, discussing expansion, and we have had outside consultants helping us look at what schools are the possible best fit,” Boren said. “So there are more than two out there that could be a good fit. There may be six or seven, and we could pick from that group the right two. We have to be very careful. We don’t want to go out and get Okefenokee A&M or something just to have a name.

“We’ll look at the fan base, we’ll look at the size of their programs, we’ll look at the academics of the institutions. We’ll look at them comprehensively as to which is the best fit. And also we’ll consider geography to a certain degree.”

On this matter, Boren wants to be heard. This is a key point.

“You know, I was for adding Louisville (when the Big 12 instead added West Virginia and TCU in 2012),” he said. “I obviously did not prevail, and they have now gone into another conference and they’re not available now. But they’d have been a good fit.

“… Boy, I was very frustrated, for example, that we let Louisville get away and we let other schools get away. We had opportunities at one time several years ago before all these schools gave up their rights, their legal rights and their financial rights, we had a real opportunity, I think back then, to even snag some of the bigger-name programs in the country, and we let the opportunity pass us by -- in spite of some of us expressing our frustrations.”
http://www.tulsaworld.com/sportsext...cle_cd7816c7-5571-5ebe-9392-3911e9337f83.html
http://www.tulsaworld.com/sportsext...cle_cd7816c7-5571-5ebe-9392-3911e9337f83.html

 

[Rootmaster]

As I said in the other similar thread...Boren gets it. WVU should get vocally in support...now.

 

[Buckaineer]

Lots of details on what the conference is looking for in expansion and what they want. Also, Boren goes in depth on what he feels the conference and OU should do--lots of great in depth info:

Q & A with OU president David Boren
http://www.tulsaworld.com/blogs/spo...cle_d5e9b844-5fa0-5f4c-98f6-357abd37e19e.html

 

[Buckaineer]

Gordon Gee's opinions of deregulation-and how this affects his opinion on expansion:

excerpt:
“I’m happy about the fact we have that allowance,” Gee said. “I think it was a good decision by the NCAA.”

He added this puts “a new dimension” on the league’s decision-making process. Gee, though, has long been a proponent for expansion and indicated Thursday this won’t change his thinking. Yet he admits there is “a split between ADs and presidents” over the topic.

The Big 12 presidents, Gee said, will meet at the end of next month and probably address the issue. The WVU president is a member of the expansion committee.

- See more at: http://www.wvgazettemail.com/sports...ange-means-to-big-12-wvu#sthash.HZD0S1Ji.dpuf

 

[Buckaineer]

Here are the schools the BIG 12 is considering--and the order:
excerpt:
The Big 12's expansion wishlist may include UConn, which is less crazy than it sounds

Dave Sittler @DaveSittler


Big 12's apparent current pecking order: Cincy, UConn, Houston, UCF, USF, Memphis, Tulane, BYU. Even though UConn seems closer to Iceland.

1:37 PM - 15 Jan 2016

http://www.sbnation.com/college-foo...ig-12-expansion-candidates-oklahoma-president

 

[Papillion]

The committee would not have been able to justify a BIG 12 school that had played so many top ten schools and beaten a top ten school in a 13th game being left out. They may have wanted Ohio State--but Ohio State's sos and record wouldn't have compared, making their selection nearly impossible over TCU or Baylor. Without a 13th game though, the committee drummed up an excuse that Ohio State's 13th game and "convincing" win made their leap over TCU and Baylor justifiable.

"Drummed up" my my rear end. They won their CCG game 59-0 with 3rd string QB. That's what got them because OSU made it difficult to exclude them with that performance and many agree.

You have an answer for everything. Seriously, you're not even arguing like a fan, or even a coming from a WVU fan perspective. You're selling something so what gives with you? I'm guessing you either work for someone within the conf or one of those schools that wants in that's on the outside looking in.

Your rhetoric is coming off too much like an agenda because I don't buy this business of you being just a casual fan. You're trying too hard considering the lack of quality that is left out there to expand with and there's plenty on this board, and I would guess around the country that agrees.

It's no where near as obvious as you're making it out to be. So what really gives with you?

 

[Papillion]

TV networks look at numbers of viewers in a schools home state and WV was never going to overtake Missouri in that conversation. The population base there is much higher. WVU has done well in certain markets but probably isn't seen as the primary in Pittsburgh -Baltimore-Washington whereas Missouri is arguably the primary St. Louis-KC college team. The SEC was trying to start a network and those tv markets were an easy sell.

How many fans traveled to UConn or South Florida or Syracuse? WVU "fans" don't even attend WVU games in Morgantown so how many travel to games in the BIG 12 is really irrelevant. WVU has a pitiful fan base compared to many other major conference teams. A fickle fan base that believes they deserve something when they don't even support the program they are lucky to have.

The ACC is a non factor. They took Pitt and SU for population bases and basketball. WVU was never going to win that competition. They took UL much later only because Maryland defected and because they had a national championship basketball program. Had WVU been mired in the AAC by that time, it would not have been some slam dunk for WVU to be in the ACC--it would still have been about tv markets and basketball and Louisville and UConn would have had the upper hand. WVU never applied for membership in that conference or the SEC so all the continued ACC love is pointless. Those schools don't even play WVU now, WVU certainly is happy to be a member of a conference where great programs like Oklahoma and Texas make regular visits to Mountaineer field (which by attendance numbers the fans don't even appreciate).

WVU is like Penn State was to the Big Ten when they joined. The easternmost team in a more midwestern conference. One day its likely there will be teams in the conference closer to WVU to bridge things more, but other than having to travel a bit further WVU fits as an institution very well in that conference culturally, academically and athletically--even though the desired success in football isn't quite there yet.

Its very odd though--those wishing WVU would have stayed in the Big East/AAC to be out of major college athletics were quite content to never win the defunct Big East and regularly lose to some mid major like ECU--but now that WVU is playing the toughest schedule its ever faced year in and out, they whine like babies because WVU can't yet beat a slew of top 15 teams on the schedule each year, or lose to similar level programs such as K State or Oklahoma State.

WVU needs to develop in all areas for success to happen. The easiest improvement and growth that should take place is with the small time fanbase. The major conference WVU needed for improvement is there--and its the BIG 12 where WVU will call home for a long long time.

WVU fans don't attend games in Morgantown and have a lousy fan base? Where do you come up with this crap? You sound like WBGVWBGV with just another name.

Name another program with the same population that does as well as WVU. Nebraska right off the top of my head. But they also have a city or two with large populations wtih flat land that helps an awful lot.

WVU has done quite well in its existence with what it's had to work with dealing with down eco times, and a stigma that people like you contribute to. You're no WVU fan, you're some kind of wolf in sheep's clothing coming over here with your bull$hit.

WVU has a "pitiful" fan base compared to what, other major schools who don't live in relatively poor states trying to dig themselves out of decades old stigmas with large populations? Is that it?

Our fan base travels quite well, or did before the Big 12 and is noted around the country as such. Your rhetoric is getting old. You're no Mountaineer fan so just identity yourself and cut the freaking games.

 

[Buckaineer]

WVU fans don't attend games in Morgantown and have a lousy fan base? Where do you come up with this crap? You sound like WBGVWBGV with just another name.

Name another program with the same population that does as well as WVU. Nebraska right off the top of my head. But they also have a city or two with large populations wtih flat land that helps an awful lot.

WVU has done quite well in its existence with what it's had to work with dealing with down eco times, and a stigma that people like you contribute to. You're no WVU fan, you're some kind of wolf in sheep's clothing coming over here with your bull$hit.

WVU has a "pitiful" fan base compared to what, other major schools who don't live in relatively poor states trying to dig themselves out of decades old stigmas with large populations? Is that it?

Our fan base travels quite well, or did before the Big 12 and is noted around the country as such. Your rhetoric is getting old. You're no Mountaineer fan so just identity yourself and cut the freaking games.

What gives with YOU is the question. Why are you so desperate for the BIG 12 to fail? Because there are clear obvious issues that must be addressed now by the conference.

Why are you pretending there aren't expansion candidates available now that meet the needs of the BIG 12 when Oklahomas president- a member of the BIG 12s expansion committee tells you there are?

So what exactly is the problem? Expansion will strengthen the conference. It will put the conference on an even plane in terms of making the playoffs without the desperation band aid of a ten team CCG which has a 50/50 shot of backfiring badly. Expansion will increase the footprint, bring new fans and more viewers. Revenue increases not possible now will come with expansion. The conference's future won't be questionable anymore-- so again, why are you so determined that it not happen? What do you personally get out of that?

If expansion does not happen then multiple schools such as WVU may be in big trouble. Do you want WVU to become a mid major or something? To have revenues reduced, and to be out of major competition? Because that is where doing nothing is going to lead.

It's like some of you are blind or something. Expansion isn't going to make things worse it's going to make the, better. What, are you afraid you won't be able to brag to your office buddy because your schools conference got Cincinnati instead of Louisville? What the hell difference does that make to anyone when adding Cincinnati is going to allow your school to be more successful in every way a conference membership can make an athletic department more successful?

 

[Papillion]

What gives with YOU is the question. Why are you so desperate for the BIG 12 to fail? Because there are clear obvious issues that must be addressed now by the conference.

Why are you pretending there aren't expansion candidates available now that meet the needs of the BIG 12 when Oklahomas president- a member of the BIG 12s expansion committee tells you there are?

So what exactly is the problem? Expansion will strengthen the conference. It will put the conference on an even plane in terms of making the playoffs without the desperation band aid of a ten team CCG which has a 50/50 shot of backfiring badly. Expansion will increase the footprint, bring new fans and more viewers. Revenue increases not possible now will come with expansion. The conference's future won't be questionable anymore-- so again, why are you so determined that it not happen? What do you personally get out of that?

If expansion does not happen then multiple schools such as WVU may be in big trouble. Do you want WVU to become a mid major or something? To have revenues reduced, and to be out of major competition? Because that is where doing nothing is going to lead.

It's like some of you are blind or something. Expansion isn't going to make things worse it's going to make the, better. What, are you afraid you won't be able to brag to your office buddy because your schools conference got Cincinnati instead of Louisville? What the hell difference does that make to anyone when adding Cincinnati is going to allow your school to be more successful in every way a conference membership can make an athletic department more successful?

Interesting that I called you out and all you did was continue with your expansion rhetoric. Also interesting is how you turned my questioning of who you really are and what you're up to here into I want to see the Big 12 fail.

That, and along with the fact that you addressed NOTHING of what I said to you about our fans and what you're up to. You're not for real.

 

[Buckaineer]

WVU fans don't attend games in Morgantown and have a lousy fan base? Where do you come up with this crap? You sound like WBGVWBGV with just another name.

Name another program with the same population that does as well as WVU. Nebraska right off the top of my head. But they also have a city or two with large populations wtih flat land that helps an awful lot.

WVU has done quite well in its existence with what it's had to work with dealing with down eco times, and a stigma that people like you contribute to. You're no WVU fan, you're some kind of wolf in sheep's clothing coming over here with your bull$hit.

WVU has a "pitiful" fan base compared to what, other major schools who don't live in relatively poor states trying to dig themselves out of decades old stigmas with large populations? Is that it?

Our fan base travels quite well, or did before the Big 12 and is noted around the country as such. Your rhetoric is getting old. You're no Mountaineer fan so just identity yourself and cut the freaking games.

There are multiple schools out there with better fan support and attendance than WVU.

WVU fanbase is as fickle as they come, just read these boards and you find many claiming to be fans, yet spending countless amounts of time trying to tear down the program, the coaches, whatever they can attack. You have people trying to keep others from attending games and trumpeting every failure as though it's a good thing.

Mississippi is poor and yet their people support two schools with as many fans as WVU. Nebraska has a huge fanbase compared to WVU. People aren't spending money when they call a radio show or email a paper to rip on WVU programs or visit message boards to gleefully chase off recruits-- then turn around and whine like babies when the coaches miss out on some.

People like you are the worst sort of "fan"- pretending you support something then second guessing everything the school, AD and coaches do. pitiful.

 

[Papillion]

There are multiple schools out there with better fan support and attendance than WVU.

WVU fanbase is as fickle as they come, just read these boards and you find many claiming to be fans, yet spending countless amounts of time trying to tear down the program, the coaches, whatever they can attack. You have people trying to keep others from attending games and trumpeting every failure as though it's a good thing.

Mississippi is poor and yet their people support two schools with as many fans as WVU. Nebraska has a huge fanbase compared to WVU. People aren't spending money when they call a radio show or email a paper to rip on WVU programs or visit message boards to gleefully chase off recruits-- then turn around and whine like babies when the coaches miss out on some.

People like you are the worst sort of "fan"- pretending you support something then second guessing everything the school, AD and coaches do. pitiful.

Okay WBGVWBGV, now you're getting personal. I just told you why Nebraska has a better fan base with comparative population but once again you ignored certain facts. Every school has bad fans that are negative, that's not sports that's human nature.

Now I want you to quote me where I have tried tearing down my school that I GRADUATED FROM and have been going to games since I was a kid in the 60s. I will not let this go. You just made something up by throwing me in with a bunch of other people who can be bad and who are always negative. That is not me just because I don't agree with you.

Look around on this and the other board and you will find SCORES of other people who would not be happy with adding what is left over. That is a FACT.

Keep making stuff up and acting like some programmed robot on here and others are going to start joining in and calling you out. Now find a quote where I have been tearing my beloved school down. Do you even have a degree from WVU? Do you even like WVU or the state of West Virginia?

 

[Buckaineer]

Okay WBGVWBGV, now you're getting personal. I just told you why Nebraska has a better fan base with comparative population but once again you ignored certain facts. Every school has bad fans that are negative, that's not sports that's human nature.

Now I want you to quote me where I have tried tearing down my school that I GRADUATED FROM and have been going to games since I was a kid in the 60s. I will not let this go. You just made something up by throwing me in with a bunch of other people who can be bad and who are always negative. That is not me just because I don't agree with you.

Look around on this and the other board and you will find SCORES of other people who would not be happy with adding what is left over. That is a FACT.

Keep making stuff up and acting like some programmed robot on here and others are going to start joining in and calling you out. Now find a quote where I have been tearing my beloved school down. Do you even have a degree from WVU? Do you even like WVU or the state of West Virginia?

I got personal? I just made something up? You've been doing that in every post you've made towards me.

You have an issue and its you that 's acting like you are working for someone or have an agenda. I've presented facts, provided links, and explained myself when asked and you haven't done any of that--you've simply gotten personal and made b.s. up about me, about the issues being discussed and everything else. You are also doing everything possible to derail the thread.

 

[Buckaineer]

Interesting that I called you out and all you did was continue with your expansion rhetoric. Also interesting is how you turned my questioning of who you really are and what you're up to here into I want to see the Big 12 fail.

That, and along with the fact that you addressed NOTHING of what I said to you about our fans and what you're up to. You're not for real.

In what universe did you "call me out"? This thread isn't about you or me its about expansion and what's happening with that in regards to the BIG 12. Stop trying to press your personal agenda and derail the topic at hand. You are the only one that needs to explain yourself and what is driving your odd behavior here.

 

[Papillion]

I got personal? I just made something up? You've been doing that in every post you've made towards me.

You have an issue and its you that 's acting like you are working for someone or have an agenda. I've presented facts, provided links, and explained myself when asked and you haven't done any of that--you've simply gotten personal and made b.s. up about me, about the issues being discussed and everything else. You are also doing everything possible to derail the thread.

Yes, I did get a little personal because what stuck out to me is the way you're arguing for this expansion thing. It goes beyond just some fan having fun arguing on a message board. You're trying way too hard as if the state of WVA or WVU hangs in the balance and will cease to exist if we don't do something right now.

Also what struck me is I accused you of being someone else with another name and you never denied it.

And another thing, you have a neat little knack of turning things around on people and making it sound like they are saying "it" when it is you. No one on this board is pushing for this expansion like you are. But yet you turn on me just because I asked you to explain yourself and why you care this much, much more than the casual fan.

You still didn't come up with a quote where I was tearing down MY school?

 

[Papillion]

Yes, I did get a little personal because what stuck out to me is the way you're arguing for this expansion thing. It goes beyond just some fan having fun arguing on a message board. You're trying way too hard as if the state of WVA or WVU hangs in the balance and will cease to exist if we don't do something right now.

Also what struck me is I accused you of being someone else with another name and you never denied it.

And another thing, you have a neat little knack of turning things around on people and making it sound like they are saying "it" when it is you. No one on this board is pushing for this expansion like you are. But yet you turn on me just because I asked you to explain yourself and why you care this much, much more than the casual fan.

You still didn't come up with a quote where I was tearing down MY school?

And just to add further Buckaineer, just so you know I'm not trying to pick a fight as much as I'm just trying to figure this out. You're the one that comes up with completely made up rhetoric as opposed to me just asking questions. Maybe I alluded to a few things but I never came out and made something up. I gave my opinions which, lets face it, you don't exactly address things that I've said to you.

 

[skygusty]

Yes, I did get a little personal because what stuck out to me is the way you're arguing for this expansion thing. It goes beyond just some fan having fun arguing on a message board. You're trying way too hard as if the state of WVA or WVU hangs in the balance and will cease to exist if we don't do something right now.

Also what struck me is I accused you of being someone else with another name and you never denied it.

And another thing, you have a neat little knack of turning things around on people and making it sound like they are saying "it" when it is you. No one on this board is pushing for this expansion like you are. But yet you turn on me just because I asked you to explain yourself and why you care this much, much more than the casual fan.

You still didn't come up with a quote where I was tearing down MY school?

You and I know a hard sell when we hear one. You know when you are hearing a high pressure sales pitch, you are the one getting sheared, not the one doing the shearing. We also don't know people who work this hard for nothing. As in all things, follow the money, and there you will find the motivation for just about everything. There is a huge amount of money on the table. Expansion also works for other conferences in that if the BIG12 can be pressured to take two lesser teams, it reduces the odds that two of your teams could go if the environment shifts again. If at the same time you can contribute to sowing discord between Oklahoma and Texas, to the point that one may eventually leave you get double duty out of stirring the pot. The BIG12 has spots open, they have filled up in other conferences to the point that adding more is really unweildy unless you can land a really big fish. There aren't many of those. I think you are on the right track. Of it looks like a duck, walks like a duck, sounds like a duck and smells like a duck, it is probably a duck.

 

[Buckaineer]

You and I know a hard sell when we hear one. You know when you are hearing a high pressure sales pitch, you are the one getting sheared, not the one doing the shearing. We also don't know people who work this hard for nothing. As in all things, follow the money, and there you will find the motivation for just about everything. There is a huge amount of money on the table. Expansion also works for other conferences in that if the BIG12 can be pressured to take two lesser teams, it reduces the odds that two of your teams could go if the environment shifts again. If at the same time you can contribute to sowing discord between Oklahoma and Texas, to the point that one may eventually leave you get double duty out of stirring the pot. The BIG12 has spots open, they have filled up in other conferences to the point that adding more is really unweildy unless you can land a really big fish. There aren't many of those. I think you are on the right track. Of it looks like a duck, walks like a duck, sounds like a duck and smells like a duck, it is probably a duck.

The only one working hard here is you--and you are right--if it looks like a duck, walks like a duck, sounds like a duck and smells like a duck, it is probably a duck. So once again, what is your agenda-who are you working for?

West Virginia's president and Athletic Director are FOR BIG 12 expansion. Gee is on the expansion committee and has studied all the facts about the candidates and is one of those agreeing with OU's president. Why then are you trying to derail that?

The only one needing to answer anything here is you--what do you get out of trying to derail BIG 12 expansion? What's in it for you?

 

[skygusty]

The only one working hard here is you--and you are right--if it looks like a duck, walks like a duck, sounds like a duck and smells like a duck, it is probably a duck. So once again, what is your agenda-who are you working for?

West Virginia's president and Athletic Director are FOR BIG 12 expansion. Gee is on the expansion committee and has studied all the facts about the candidates and is one of those agreeing with OU's president. Why then are you trying to derail that?

The only one needing to answer anything here is you--what do you get out of trying to derail BIG 12 expansion? What's in it for you?

I think I must have struck a nerve. You have been exposed. Count my posts on this, less than 20. Count yours, hundreds if not thousands. You never even post on any other subject. Pretty obvious you are a shill or worse. Quack, quack. Are you working for the ACC or just Boren?

 

[Papillion]

I think I must have struck a nerve. You have been exposed. Count my posts on this, less than 20. Count yours, hundreds if not thousands. You never even post on any other subject. Pretty obvious you are a shill or worse. Quack, quack. Are you working for the ACC or just Boren?

LOL...You know what he, and trying to do an exchange with reminds me of? Trying to argue with someone regarding the JFK Assassination. This is what those non-conspiracy people do when they have an agenda. They just reverse things on you. Call them or accuse them of something, that's what he does.
I even asked him in a nice way to explain himself and he never addressed my questions. All he does is reverse engineer, if you will. This clown actually accused me of tearing down WVU, the AD, the dept., etc. etc. I've been on this board for how long. Can anyone ever remember me talking like on here?

I don't even remember this guy longer than what, a few months? Six months at the most? I don't know but like you said, I don't remember posts from him on any other subject.

 

[skygusty]

LOL...You know what he, and trying to do an exchange with reminds me of? Trying to argue with someone regarding the JFK Assassination. This is what those non-conspiracy people do when they have an agenda. They just reverse things on you. Call them or accuse them of something, that's what he does.
I even asked him in a nice way to explain himself and he never addressed my questions. All he does is reverse engineer, if you will. This clown actually accused me of tearing down WVU, the AD, the dept., etc. etc. I've been on this board for how long. Can anyone ever remember me talking like on here?

I don't even remember this guy longer than what, a few months? Six months at the most? I don't know but like you said, I don't remember posts from him on any other subject.

He shall henceforth be known in all the kingdom as Duckaineer. Quack, quack. I think there are a few people buying what he is selling, but much of the board remains silent. You want to know what I think about expansion? Leave it to the BIG12 leadership, they have some hard choices but now they also have some new options which I expect them to pursue for a while as they consider the pros and cons of expansion. I will live with whatever they decide. What ever Duck is selling, I'm not buying.

 

[Mountaineer Steve]

Interesting that I called you out and all you did was continue with your expansion rhetoric. Also interesting is how you turned my questioning of who you really are and what you're up to here into I want to see the Big 12 fail.

That, and along with the fact that you addressed NOTHING of what I said to you about our fans and what you're up to. You're not for real.

That is the way Buck always plays it. Never answers question, deflects by posting the same expansion points (some of them flat out wrong). Later he will tell you he answered your questions when he hadn't