The Big 12 will implode before it poaches a P5 team, and adding some mid majors that no one else wants isn't the solution, this conferences already has enough dead weight.
Stay put.
Stay put.
Expansion
- Thread starter Buckaineer
- Start date
How in the world do you think the B12 has enough dead weight? But I do agree that we are not getting any P5 teams to leave a current conference. But we need to be a 12.
When all 5 conferences have 13 data points there will still only be four slots for five conferences. Maybe we should play best 2 out of 3 for our conference CC and have 14 or 15 potential data points.
Big 12 should take a hard look at UCONN. IF the B10 thought Rutgers was attractive they screwed up. UCONN has just as much if not more of the TV market in that area as Rutgers has...much better BBall and a better football program. Put them in a real league and their money would push them up a few notches....I'd also look at South Florida. Yea...they dropped when the Big East imploded....they could be a sleeping giant in the right league....we need a Florida team.
Here's Holgorsen's opinion on BIG 12 expansion:
Excerpt:
“I think we need to go get a couple more in this area — whether it’s UConn, Cincinnati, Memphis, Central Florida or South Florida,” said Holgorsen. “I don’t need to be the expert on who, but I think we need to add two.”
Holgorsen likes the idea of bringing in a couple of other East Coast schools so that WVU isn’t always the outlier. But he’s not opposed to other schools like BYU, SMU and Houston, which have been discussed.
“The Big 12 has helped us in recruiting, because we’re selling something on the East Coast that nobody else is,” he explained. “We do want to be able to go into homes on the East Coast and sell something different. But there’s a part of me that would like to get a couple of schools in the Big 12 that are a little closer for travel. It would let everybody get to a couple more games within striking distance.
“I don’t know who the best choices are. I haven’t researched it as much as some of the other ADs and commissioners, and that’s not my expertise. I simply think there needs to be two more to get into two divisions and make it a little more manageable.”
http://www.register-herald.com/spor...fd3-ad0f-58a4-9893-f0ff6f2fed49.html?mode=jqm
Excerpt:
“I think we need to go get a couple more in this area — whether it’s UConn, Cincinnati, Memphis, Central Florida or South Florida,” said Holgorsen. “I don’t need to be the expert on who, but I think we need to add two.”
Holgorsen likes the idea of bringing in a couple of other East Coast schools so that WVU isn’t always the outlier. But he’s not opposed to other schools like BYU, SMU and Houston, which have been discussed.
“The Big 12 has helped us in recruiting, because we’re selling something on the East Coast that nobody else is,” he explained. “We do want to be able to go into homes on the East Coast and sell something different. But there’s a part of me that would like to get a couple of schools in the Big 12 that are a little closer for travel. It would let everybody get to a couple more games within striking distance.
“I don’t know who the best choices are. I haven’t researched it as much as some of the other ADs and commissioners, and that’s not my expertise. I simply think there needs to be two more to get into two divisions and make it a little more manageable.”
http://www.register-herald.com/spor...fd3-ad0f-58a4-9893-f0ff6f2fed49.html?mode=jqm
Can't make link work, but on latest Sportsline Tony Caridi talks with Barry Tramel of the Oklahoman about BIG 12 expansion.
he sees UConn and Cincinnati as strong candidates and makes lots of sound points
he sees UConn and Cincinnati as strong candidates and makes lots of sound points
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Sports Illustrated's take- says BIG 12 meetings over the next few months will determine league future:
Excerpt:
The biggest question facing the league is philosophical: Is a bigger league actually stronger?Expansion is a potential step, and it appears that BYU and Cincinnati would be the favorites to be invited to the conference if it expanded today. However, if there were obvious and lucrative ways to expand the league and enhance revenue, the Big 12 would have taken those steps long ago.
http://www.campusrush.com/big-12-conference-questions-future-expansion-1528668401.html
Excerpt:
The biggest question facing the league is philosophical: Is a bigger league actually stronger?Expansion is a potential step, and it appears that BYU and Cincinnati would be the favorites to be invited to the conference if it expanded today. However, if there were obvious and lucrative ways to expand the league and enhance revenue, the Big 12 would have taken those steps long ago.
http://www.campusrush.com/big-12-conference-questions-future-expansion-1528668401.html
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I am ambivalent. While I like the round robin, the idea of a CC game that is a repeat of a game already played isn't that exciting. If we expand and have two divisions with permanent crossovers, we could also get rematches. I'm not excited at all about adding another Texas team. BYU makes some sense, if it is football only it removes most of the problems with playing on Sundays. All the schools mentioned would probably be as good if not better than Kansas and probably have the potential to be at least as good has WVU has been in the BIG12. I think BYU, Cincy, and UCONN are the top 3, tossup between Memphis and one of the Florida teams for 4th place. I don't think expansion makes the conference stronger unless bigger is stronger and I don't quite buy that. It does nothing to guarantee a slot in a 4 team playoff. Five undefeated conference championship teams, or five 1 loss champions could still happen easily. There are still only 4 slots for 5 conferences. I can't help but think that if there was a serious effort to expand the playoff to 8 teams, that much of the interest in expanding the Big12 would go away. Then the conference could look at new members in terms of expanding footprint, viewership and creating a cable network. Expanding because we think it is going to make it easier to make the 4 team cut just doesn't make much sense to me.
Any conference championship game without expansion is plain stupid. Two divisions of five teams each sets up a host of nightmare championship game scenarios such as a two or three loss team in one division upsetting a one loss or no loss team from the other. No bigger footprint. No additional tv eyeballs. Guaranteed second meeting. Stupid. Why should the Big 12 even think about such a situation? To be viable in the future the conference needs to suck it up and take the best two programs, divide into two six team divisions and move forward. In fact they should seriously look at going to 14 and join the party. All the crap that there just aren't any other teams (schools) worthy of inclusion is just plain...crap. Expand already and join the 21st century.
The BIG12 could be at a huge advantage if they can have a CCG without having to split into 2 division. This will allow BIG12 to pick the 2 best teams with winner getting into NCG.
Steve won't work that way. Will be forced into two five team divisions if it even comes to pass. Does not guarantee winner getting into playoff (have to win there btw to get to NCG.) Second meeting game...dumb.
Ohio offers a much larger television market than the state of Utah does plus it has better football players than Utah does another typical Ill informed mouth breathing post
Dh has gotten increasingly better recruiting classes each year? wrong 2014 was better than 2015 and this years to this point is no different than what he'd had in the past.
another post by the mouth breather. Cinci doesn't deliver the Ohio market. Ohio state does. Nobody there cares about cinci. BYU is the Notre dame of Mormons. Byu has a worldwide following. Byu has their own network. Byu has tradition with a NC. Byu has recruited very well despite a midmajor status over the years. There have been several years in the past they have hauled in highly ranked blue chip talent.
Why the endless personal insults ?
....they add no validity to your opinions and only encourage the person/people you're directing your reply toward to be defensive and close-minded.
....they add no validity to your opinions and only encourage the person/people you're directing your reply toward to be defensive and close-minded.
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Name one State that has a Mormon population greater than 10% outside of the western US. Byu Maybe the Notre dame of Mormons but Catholics have a hugh presence in all 50 states. Comparing the Mormon population to Catholics is like comparing the population of California to West Virginia. Do you think that the big 10 choose Rutgers and Maryland for strength. Cincy brings much more a bigger television market and better football players plus it would create a bigger presence on the eastern sea board where people actually live. inviting Byu would create two outlier programs in different parts of the country. You are redefining the term moron
stop being an idiot. Adding cinci does one thing; it benefits us by proximity. They do not and will not deliver the Ohio state market. Nobody cares about cinci there or anywhere. They will be a doormat. And you obviously fail on your understanding of the Mormon following of byu. You obviously have no clue. Just mouth breathing more nonsense.
For someone who actually lives out west and knows that the reach of the Mormon population isn't what you are claiming it to be. Cincy benefits the big 12 allot more than what byu could ever bring if Byu is what you say it is they would already be a member of the power 5 conference or have the same sweet heart deal that ND enjoyes
sorry son, you're wrong. And from someone who lives on the east coast, cinci is irrelevant. They have more of a CUSA feel. You want to cheapen the perception of the league; add cinci.
Well for someone who lives in the west Byu is irrelevant son. The Denver media was laughing at Byu when they made the claim Notre dame of the west
lol people are laughing at you. Not byu. Anyone with a clue has respect for the byu program from lavell Edwards to bronco mendenhall. I guess Steve young, Jim McMahon, and ty detmer didn't get the memo.
Nobody said Byu wasn't respected they just don't have a big enough following to be relevant as a power Broker in college football if they did they would either be in a power 5 conference or have the same Sweet heart deal ND has but they have neither and the Pac 12 doesn't want them and the Big 12 would only take them if they where desperate but any smart executive in the big 12 would expand east its where the people live and its where your gonna get the biggest bang for you buck in television money. If you where a bean counter instead of an ass wiper you would understand this
I do not think that anyone thinks Cincy will deliver the Ohio Market. But it will give us another foothold in the Ohio market. WVU also had a bit of foothold on a section of Ohio.
The linked article spelled out the options pretty well. FWIW Kansas is the doormat. Cincy is probably better than Iowa State. They might turn out to have as good a record in the Big12 as WVU or Texas Tech - even as good as Texas has been lately. Probably not as good as the rest of the conference, for now. I'm no big fan of expansion because the options are limited. And I don't think it is a choice between BYU or Cincy, it may be BYU and some other eastern team. It may be two eastern teams or even 3 or 4 eastern teams. We know who is on the list. The presidents will decide if Cincy brings a little more "nothing" than other teams on the list.
The big problem with expansion is there are no teams that could be added that would increase revenue. Anybody that would be added would be a geographic outlier unless they choose someone like Houston which really wouldn't make allot of sense considering the market is already served by Texas. It would make more sense to go east if your gonna have outlier programs. The population is bigger and in the case of wvu there would be someone relatively close and probably former rival. Going west and adding a Byu or Boise state would create another outlier in less dense populated area and another geographic region
thats why you don't expand right now. It's common sense. Until there is another viable candidate to pair up with byu, it makes no sense. They missed the boat letting Louisville pass by.
If it really did boost our chances significantly to have a conference representative in the playoffs it would be worth it to expand. But it won't. Even if we could add BYU and ND, there would still be 4 slots for 5 conferences. Go to 8 teams. 4 more bowl games get to be part of the playoff picture and actually mean something. More revenue, better programming. Bowl season already spans almost 4 weeks. Too many games in a season? Drop one of the patsies everybody warms up with. Only 8 teams would have to play an additional game anyway. #4 gets to play #5 #3 gets to play #6 #2 against #7 and #1 vs #8.
Cincy adds a large top 40 tv market, an area with many millions of people advertisers can advertise too, solid athletic programs, a good academic institution. They have nice facilities the two primaries either recently renovated or being renovated. They have a great recruiting territory which will benefit everyone in the conference. They have been better than many P5 programs.
They also help to bridge the conference between WVU and the rest.
The idea that the BIG 12 needs Ohio State is just wrong. Hey it would be great, but how do you explain Indiana, Purdue, Northwestern, Minnesota, etc.? Ohio State and Michigan State seem to do just fine with those schools in their conference.
The BIG 12 needs more schools and there isn't anyone out there that is going to be a better fit than UC-which used to be in conference with WVU and beat WVU a few times then if I recall.
TV market rankings have #10 Houston, 13 Tampa (USF), 19 Orlando (UCF), 30 Hartford (UConn), 33 Salt Lake City (BYU), 34 Cincinnati, 48 Memphis.
Based just on TV markets, USF and UCF may be most attractive, given an aversion by the Texas schools to add Houston. Plus, these two bring in Florida as a viable Big 12 recruiting area.
Based just on TV markets, USF and UCF may be most attractive, given an aversion by the Texas schools to add Houston. Plus, these two bring in Florida as a viable Big 12 recruiting area.
B12 making the playoffs extended any move for at least 2 more years.
But since we are opening this debate (again):
UCF is the best choice. I really don't know what happened this year, but they have been successful on a tiny budget. They have a huge student body. Great recruiting area. A great adjacent market (Tampa) to pull from demographically as well (since USF has hit the toilet). Any discussion that doesn't start there is lacking in foresight. They would gladly take a 1/2 share for the next decade to get into a P5.
Cincy is the second best (closer margin from rest of field for #2). Less TVs, but still quite good. Good recruiting. Close for WVU. Again, they would take a 1/2 share for a decade if that's what it would take.
BYU: If they weren't in the opposite direction of where the conference needs to go, then they would be the top choice. They aren't, so they are 3rd. They do remind me of ND-wannabes. High drama and entitlements galore. We don't need that.
Memphis: Good recruiting. OK TV market. Essentially brings a bowl game and FedEx money with them. Lack of track record in football make this hard to place higher than 4. I would flip a coin between them and BYU.
UConn: Awful stadium. Good market. Small school. Great BBall but spotty football. Will they make the moves to be a P5 school? Easily the 5th of this group.
But since we are opening this debate (again):
UCF is the best choice. I really don't know what happened this year, but they have been successful on a tiny budget. They have a huge student body. Great recruiting area. A great adjacent market (Tampa) to pull from demographically as well (since USF has hit the toilet). Any discussion that doesn't start there is lacking in foresight. They would gladly take a 1/2 share for the next decade to get into a P5.
Cincy is the second best (closer margin from rest of field for #2). Less TVs, but still quite good. Good recruiting. Close for WVU. Again, they would take a 1/2 share for a decade if that's what it would take.
BYU: If they weren't in the opposite direction of where the conference needs to go, then they would be the top choice. They aren't, so they are 3rd. They do remind me of ND-wannabes. High drama and entitlements galore. We don't need that.
Memphis: Good recruiting. OK TV market. Essentially brings a bowl game and FedEx money with them. Lack of track record in football make this hard to place higher than 4. I would flip a coin between them and BYU.
UConn: Awful stadium. Good market. Small school. Great BBall but spotty football. Will they make the moves to be a P5 school? Easily the 5th of this group.
BYU isn't high on anybody list if they where they would already be in the power 5 something your intellectually deficient mind hasn't figured out
If you add teams that usually finish below only 5 of the current 10, you are, by definition, making the league weaker on the field. If they usually finish below 7-8 of the teams you are making the league a good bit weaker. There are no teams anyone would consider even a close to even money bet to make it a better football league on the field.
If we must expand, the consideration has to be which teams bring the most to the table "off the field" while doing the least damage to the on the field quality.
Yeah, there are MANY teams that could do better than Kansas consistently and maybe a few that could do better than ISU consistently, but they would still make the league weaker on the field.
I look at it in reverse. I think UConn and Memphis would be perpetual doormats capable of only competing with ISU to finish more than 1 spot above Kansas on a regular basis. A lot of people live in the NE but very very few of them give a damn about UConn football. Memphis had its best year in eons and averaged in the low 40s attendance and that includes a 60K crowd against Ole Miss that is sort of like when we play Pitt and fill half the seats; historically Memphis has been a very weak program.
Adding UCF right now would do harm to the league's reputation. Either it would suck at a Kansas level or if it did better it would diminish the rep of any other team it beat. Over time UCF might rise to the 4th school in Florida. It isn't right now. It went 0-12, for God's sake. USF destroyed them in Orlando and even FIU of CUSA beat them in Orlando (Marshall trounced FIU 45-13). It didn't play Florida Atlantic which also sucks so maybe it's currently 6th in Florida. Its attendance averages in the 20s. The 4th school in Texas doesn't suck so maybe UCF might eventually be able to compete for the middle of the pack and occasionally a little better if it gets a great coach, but in the short term it would be a PR disaster and it brings almost nothing to the table. A large student body of commuters and alums who mostly have other teams as their favorites and a tiny footprint in a mid-sized market doesn't amount to much. Finally, since we complain that we can't recruit Texas on a par with the likes of Baylor, TCU and TTU why would we want to add a school that we would compete with in FLA for recruits?
Cincinnati has shown the ability to get, if not keep, good coaches and being second fiddle in Ohio still leaves you with at least a potential base larger than some of the current Big 12 teams.
BYU is the best football program not in the Power 5. Is it willing to accept that the Big 12 is more important to it than it is to the league and make the necessary concessions to join? If it is and we must expand, it would be better mostly by default because the pickings are so slim.
If we must expand, the consideration has to be which teams bring the most to the table "off the field" while doing the least damage to the on the field quality.
Yeah, there are MANY teams that could do better than Kansas consistently and maybe a few that could do better than ISU consistently, but they would still make the league weaker on the field.
I look at it in reverse. I think UConn and Memphis would be perpetual doormats capable of only competing with ISU to finish more than 1 spot above Kansas on a regular basis. A lot of people live in the NE but very very few of them give a damn about UConn football. Memphis had its best year in eons and averaged in the low 40s attendance and that includes a 60K crowd against Ole Miss that is sort of like when we play Pitt and fill half the seats; historically Memphis has been a very weak program.
Adding UCF right now would do harm to the league's reputation. Either it would suck at a Kansas level or if it did better it would diminish the rep of any other team it beat. Over time UCF might rise to the 4th school in Florida. It isn't right now. It went 0-12, for God's sake. USF destroyed them in Orlando and even FIU of CUSA beat them in Orlando (Marshall trounced FIU 45-13). It didn't play Florida Atlantic which also sucks so maybe it's currently 6th in Florida. Its attendance averages in the 20s. The 4th school in Texas doesn't suck so maybe UCF might eventually be able to compete for the middle of the pack and occasionally a little better if it gets a great coach, but in the short term it would be a PR disaster and it brings almost nothing to the table. A large student body of commuters and alums who mostly have other teams as their favorites and a tiny footprint in a mid-sized market doesn't amount to much. Finally, since we complain that we can't recruit Texas on a par with the likes of Baylor, TCU and TTU why would we want to add a school that we would compete with in FLA for recruits?
Cincinnati has shown the ability to get, if not keep, good coaches and being second fiddle in Ohio still leaves you with at least a potential base larger than some of the current Big 12 teams.
BYU is the best football program not in the Power 5. Is it willing to accept that the Big 12 is more important to it than it is to the league and make the necessary concessions to join? If it is and we must expand, it would be better mostly by default because the pickings are so slim.
the only school not in a p5 worth adding is byu. If you expand it must increase the tv contract. Otherwise every big 12 school takes a paycut due to sharing the pie 12 ways versus 10.
Byu isn't gonna add to the Tv money either if they did they would already be a member. The Pac 12 took Utah over Byu so much for the Notre dame of the west
This has been debunked endless times...at least with our current contract (regarding TV revenue).
with existing tv contract no one takes a pay cut by adding two teams. estimated 20 million for conference game gets split 12 ways. with teams from media heavy markets look for Big 12 network to become a reality absorbing the heavy money losing Longhorn...ESPN is looking for an exit strategy.
I have to laugh when I see opinions on USF and UCF since I live near both. the addition of either one and their markets would be a plus. btw: USF doesn't know its program is in the toilet lol. would negatively affect WVU Florida recruiting IMO.
Come on in Cincy and any one of the other candidates.
I have to laugh when I see opinions on USF and UCF since I live near both. the addition of either one and their markets would be a plus. btw: USF doesn't know its program is in the toilet lol. would negatively affect WVU Florida recruiting IMO.
Come on in Cincy and any one of the other candidates.
The BIG 12 is going to need to expand to increase revenues down the road and give themselves the best shot at succesful playoff runs throughout the playoffs.
There aren't going to be P5 schools available for a long long time if ever--certainly not before having to reup their tv contracts.
Expansion will be needed to develop a conference network down the road-whatever form that may take.
Most of the people in the country live in the east, and the BIG 12 needs to grow its presence there.
There aren't going to be P5 schools available for a long long time if ever--certainly not before having to reup their tv contracts.
Expansion will be needed to develop a conference network down the road-whatever form that may take.
Most of the people in the country live in the east, and the BIG 12 needs to grow its presence there.
I hate it. We play Oklahoma and Texas every year, one home one away. We also have several other schools that are of our caliber, making the regular season worthwhile. That will be taken from us with any expansion, and won't be matched. It will end up a watered down schedule.
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