Coal threatened by low natural gas prices

[moe]

“Natural gas is really the critical driver for the demise of the coal industry,” said Hans Daniels, executive vice president at Doyle Trading Consultants, a Grand Junction, Colorado-based coal analytics company. “Cheap, abundant natural gas is crushing coal and there is no letup.”

Gas on the line cost $1.45 per million Btu as of June 8, about 21 percent cheaper than Central Appalachia coal at the equivalent of $1.842 per million Btu. A power plant there can make $25.13 a megawatt hour by burning gas instead of coal, data compiled by Bloomberg show.http://www.charlestondailymail.com/article/20150610/ARTICLE/150619903/1420

 

[DvlDog4WVU]

“Natural gas is really the critical driver for the demise of the coal industry,” said Hans Daniels, executive vice president at Doyle Trading Consultants, a Grand Junction, Colorado-based coal analytics company. “Cheap, abundant natural gas is crushing coal and there is no letup.”

Gas on the line cost $1.45 per million Btu as of June 8, about 21 percent cheaper than Central Appalachia coal at the equivalent of $1.842 per million Btu. A power plant there can make $25.13 a megawatt hour by burning gas instead of coal, data compiled by Bloomberg show.http://www.charlestondailymail.com/article/20150610/ARTICLE/150619903/1420

I'm sure it has nothing to do with the increased cost to extract either.

 

[moe]

I put this up here for Dave who doesn't believe in the premiss of the article but Dave's not too sharp.

 

[dave]

“Natural gas is really the critical driver for the demise of the coal industry,” said Hans Daniels, executive vice president at Doyle Trading Consultants, a Grand Junction, Colorado-based coal analytics company. “Cheap, abundant natural gas is crushing coal and there is no letup.”

Gas on the line cost $1.45 per million Btu as of June 8, about 21 percent cheaper than Central Appalachia coal at the equivalent of $1.842 per million Btu. A power plant there can make $25.13 a megawatt hour by burning gas instead of coal, data compiled by Bloomberg show.http://www.charlestondailymail.com/article/20150610/ARTICLE/150619903/1420

I didn't see where Hans addressed the location of all these plants in Central Appalachia who burn gas and coal and who are choosing to burn gas rather than coal. The article did address how closing coal plants will affect the demand for coal and how the price of extraction affects the supply of coal, but the part that moe quoted suggests that power plants have the option and that isn't true. Coal companies in Central Appalachia already have contracts with utilities to supply coal at certain price points and the reason they can't make money some mines and thus close those mines is because the extraction price is much higher now.

 

[WVPATX]

I didn't see where Hans addressed the location of all these plants in Central Appalachia who burn gas and coal and who are choosing to burn gas rather than coal. The article did address how closing coal plants will affect the demand for coal and how the price of extraction affects the supply of coal, but the part that moe quoted suggests that power plants have the option and that isn't true. Coal companies in Central Appalachia already have contracts with utilities to supply coal at certain price points and the reason they can't make money some mines and thus close those mines is because the extraction price is much higher now.

I love how libs try to protect Obama by claiming he is not responsible for the destruction of the coal industry. It's not called a "war on coal" without a reason. It's as if the EPA has no impact on the shuttering of coal fired plants, lol.

 

[mneilmont]

I put this up here for Dave who doesn't believe in the premiss of the article but Dave's not too sharp.

I would question the integrity of Moe who conveniently forgets, "coal will be bankrupt". The intelligent person that was put into the White House was so smart. "Create a new economy in Green Energy" was so often referred to. Power plant across the lake from me was Nuke and coal. They were burning a 1000 ton of coal per day. The coal section has been disassembled since Obama took office. Price of energy has increased and predicted to go higher. Moe obviously likes to get screwed as long as it is liberal.

 

[Keyser76]

Lol, The mean girls club to the rescue! Of course Obama is the General in the war on coal! Christmas too!

 

[moe]

I would question the integrity of Moe who conveniently forgets, "coal will be bankrupt". The intelligent person that was put into the White House was so smart. "Create a new economy in Green Energy" was so often referred to. Power plant across the lake from me was Nuke and coal. They were burning a 1000 ton of coal per day. The coal section has been disassembled since Obama took office. Price of energy has increased and predicted to go higher. Moe obviously likes to get screwed as long as it is liberal.

That's ok, I question your intelligence and ability to comprehend the english language. I posted above why I created this thread which is because Dave refused to acknowledge in another thread that the price of nat gas had anything to do with some power plants switching to nat gas. Obviously regulatory decisions made by this admin have negatively affected the coal industry but the price of nat gas is a signifcant contributing factor as well. Switching to nat gas helps to hold down energy costs for many electicity producers while being less polluting and causing less environmental damage overall. Of course, WV is benefiting from the surge in nat gas activity while its coal industry is being hit hard. That's just how things are right now until change comes from DC.

 

[mneilmont]

That's ok, I question your intelligence and ability to comprehend the english language. I posted above why I created this thread which is because Dave refused to acknowledge in another thread that the price of nat gas had anything to do with some power plants switching to nat gas. Obviously regulatory decisions made by this admin have negatively affected the coal industry but the price of nat gas is a signifcant contributing factor as well. Switching to nat gas helps to hold down energy costs for many electicity producers while being less polluting and causing less environmental damage overall. Of course, WV is benefiting from the surge in nat gas activity while its coal industry is being hit hard. That's just how things are right now until change comes from DC.

What do you question, and I will attempt to address. I have not been following your exchanges with Dave, so I have no way in hell of knowing what I am missing in the conversation. DC and Whitehouse and use of EPA started the war on coal with the bankrupt comment. It was an open threat that coal was going to lose during this administration. Via regs, the administration appointees have made the threat a reality.

 

[dave]

Still waiting for the list of all these plants who have switched from coal to gas because of gas prices. If you are stupid enough to debate me at least dont be dishonest. I didnt say the price of gas had nothing to do with it. I said the main reason coal mines are shutting down is because the price of mining coal under current regulation is too high form many mines with coal prices being so low. Its simple economics. The price of gas would be a bigger factor if there were a lot more natural gas plants and plants ahifting fro coal to gas but that isnt the case tight now. In fact that plays a big part in the price of natural gas. The price of gas is why gas operators are focusing more on midstream operations instead of new exploration this year.

 

[moe]

Still waiting for the list of all these plants who have switched from coal to gas because of gas prices. If you are stupid enough to debate me at least dont be dishonest. I didnt say the price of gas had nothing to do with it. I said the main reason coal mines are shutting down is because the price of mining coal under current regulation is too high form many mines with coal prices being so low. Its simple economics. The price of gas would be a bigger factor if there were a lot more natural gas plants and plants ahifting fro coal to gas but that isnt the case tight now. In fact that plays a big part in the price of natural gas. The price of gas is why gas operators are focusing more on midstream operations instead of new exploration this year.

Keep waiting and few know all the details as to why each coal plant switches over from coal to gas but obviously the price of nat gas is a big factor as the linked article points out. Coal is getting priced out of the market as you say or at least it is in Appalachia. Go talk to the plant managers as I'm not going to do a research paper for you.

 

[moe]

What do you question, and I will attempt to address. I have not been following your exchanges with Dave, so I have no way in hell of knowing what I am missing in the conversation. DC and Whitehouse and use of EPA started the war on coal with the bankrupt comment. It was an open threat that coal was going to lose during this administration. Via regs, the administration appointees have made the threat a reality.

New regulations play a role but go tell that to the folks in Illinois and the Power River Basin and they might shrug their shoulders. Midwest and west coal mining may be more negatively affected in the future but they seem to be doing well now and for the time being, price is king.

 

[dave]

Keep waiting and few know all the details as to why each coal plant switches over from coal to gas but obviously the price of nat gas is a big factor as the linked article points out. Coal is getting priced out of the market as you say or at least it is in Appalachia. Go talk to the plant managers as I'm not going to do a research paper for you.

Which plans have switched?

I understand moe. You don't know what you are talking about so you cherry pick a couple paragraphs out of an article and let those speak for you. If I was clueless and talking out my ass, I might do that very thing.

 

[moe]

Which plans have switched?

I understand moe. You don't know what you are talking about so you cherry pick a couple paragraphs out of an article and let those speak for you. If I was clueless and talking out my ass, I might do that very thing.

Just go read the linked article if you don't think that the price of gas plays a large role (which was my initial contention) in power plants switching from coal to gas. If you take issue with the material presented in the article, take it up with the author. I'm sorry if the information in the article is upsetting to you. You want specific details on every power plant in the country and that's wonderful. You should spend the weekend doing research on that topic.

 

[dave]

Just go read the linked article if you don't think that the price of gas plays a large role (which was my initial contention) in power plants switching from coal to gas. If you take issue with the material presented in the article, take it up with the author. I'm sorry if the information in the article is upsetting to you. You want specific details on every power plant in the country and that's wonderful. You should spend the weekend doing research on that topic.

I don't take issue with the article. I take issue with the fool who keeps pointing to it suggesting that it says something that it doesn't say.

 

[moe]

I don't take issue with the article. I take issue with the fool who keeps pointing to it suggesting that it says something that it doesn't say.

You're so stupid it makes my head hurt. Here's the same quote again. “Natural gas is really the critical driver for the demise of the coal industry,” said Hans Daniels, executive vice president at Doyle Trading Consultants, a Grand Junction, Colorado-based coal analytics company. “Cheap, abundant natural gas is crushing coal and there is no letup.” Let's just say that I agree with the author.

 

[dave]

You're so stupid it makes my head hurt. Here's the same quote again. “Natural gas is really the critical driver for the demise of the coal industry,” said Hans Daniels, executive vice president at Doyle Trading Consultants, a Grand Junction, Colorado-based coal analytics company. “Cheap, abundant natural gas is crushing coal and there is no letup.” Let's just say that I agree with the author.

I am stupid because Hans makes ridiculous statements in an article that he doesn't back up with real world data? The author just quotes the trader guy Hans. Hans knows the price of coal and the price of gas. It would also be cheaper for OTR truck drivers to fuel their trucks with gasoline instead of diesel. That is the same argument. Natural Gas prices only affect the coal market when both coal and gas are an option and power plants are not an option where there is a choice between both. Coal plants can't just decide well shit gomer Moe thinks gas is cheaper so blow some gas in the boiler and turn that bad boy up.

Maybe gas hurts coal in some other industry but not in the power generation industry, or at least not until there are a large supply of gas plants or hybrid plants and over 90% of the non met coal mined in central appalachia is going to power plants. The price of NG is not the reason coal mines are closing. The reason they are closing is because it is too expensive to mine coal at those plants for the price that they can sell the coal.

 

[moe]

I am stupid because Hans makes ridiculous statements in an article that he doesn't back up with real world data? The author just quotes the trader guy Hans. Hans knows the price of coal and the price of gas. It would also be cheaper for OTR truck drivers to fuel their trucks with gasoline instead of diesel. That is the same argument. Natural Gas prices only affect the coal market when both coal and gas are an option and power plants are not an option where there is a choice between both. Coal plants can't just decide well shit gomer Moe thinks gas is cheaper so blow some gas in the boiler and turn that bad boy up.

Maybe gas hurts coal in some other industry but not in the power generation industry, or at least not until there are a large supply of gas plants or hybrid plants and over 90% of the non met coal mined in central appalachia is going to power plants. The price of NG is not the reason coal mines are closing. The reason they are closing is because it is too expensive to mine coal at those plants for the price that they can sell the coal.

The reason they are closing is because it is too expensive to mine coal at those plants for the price that they can sell the coal. Soooo, if the coal is too expensive for the power plants to buy, they buy a cheaper fuel which is nat gas. It's good to see that we're all in agreement now.

 

[DvlDog4WVU]

The reason they are closing is because it is too expensive to mine coal at those plants for the price that they can sell the coal. Soooo, if the coal is too expensive for the power plants to buy, they buy a cheaper fuel which is nat gas. It's good to see that we're all in agreement now.

You are really proving your inability to follow along. THEY ARENT COVERTING which is what you keep suggesting. Some might be, but not at the levels you are suggesting. They aren't building new coal power plants, they are building new NG power plants. The speculation which aids in driving the prices is due to reduced reliance on coal and the rising costs to mine coal.

They aren't building new coal plants because they can't get approval. Coal is costing so much to mine because of the change in regulations by the EPA.

It's frightening you take such a hard liner stance in support of the administration when you lack such a fundamental understanding of economics. It is an absolute fact that Obama declared war on coal. His weapon was the EPA.

Don't try to make excuses on this one.

 

[moe]

I follow fine but you seem to struggle to do so. Show me where I support the admin on what they've done and when I say switch, that's just a general term for their energy source balance tipping from coal towards gas and it could be switching a coal plant over but it would apply to building nat gas plants as well. Regarding your comment about coal costing so much to mine, that would depend on where the mining is being done since the fed regulations would apply to all coal mining regardless of location. The least profitable location to mine coal seems to be in Appalachia. Obviously regulations are hurting coal production and I've said so in this thread more than once.

 

[dave]

The reason they are closing is because it is too expensive to mine coal at those plants for the price that they can sell the coal. Soooo, if the coal is too expensive for the power plants to buy, they buy a cheaper fuel which is nat gas. It's good to see that we're all in agreement now.

You do understand that if you run natural gas through a coal boiler that you would cause a rather large explosion?

Do you run gas through your diesel engine?

 

[moe]

You do understand that if you run natural gas through a coal boiler that you would cause a rather large explosion?

Do you run gas through your diesel engine?

http://www.powermag.com/natural-gas-conversions-of-existing-coal-fired-boilers/
http://news.nationalgeographic.com/...41120-coal-plants-repowered-with-natural-gas/
smh

 

[dave]

http://www.powermag.com/natural-gas-conversions-of-existing-coal-fired-boilers/
http://news.nationalgeographic.com/...41120-coal-plants-repowered-with-natural-gas/
smh

WOWSA. 29 Whole plants in 4 years? Better be careful shaking your head moron because you might lose whats left.

 

[mneilmont]

New regulations play a role but go tell that to the folks in Illinois and the Power River Basin and they might shrug their shoulders. Midwest and west coal mining may be more negatively affected in the future but they seem to be doing well now and for the time being, price is king.

I am not sure where you are going with the Illinois and Powder River Basin comment, but I don't there is a reasonable comparison in the quality of that coal vs. Appy coal. There was an attempt to sub Western and Columbia coal for Appalachian coal back in the 70s and there resulted in to comparison in cost. Plants East of Mississippi River found the quality of coal and difference in shipping cost(total cost) and the refuse from lower quality coal to make Appy coal a better buy for the plants steam coal. Met coal for steel is beyond question. Doubt that even Obama can make WV coal subordinate to Western coal.

 

[moe]

I am not sure where you are going with the Illinois and Powder River Basin comment, but I don't there is a reasonable comparison in the quality of that coal vs. Appy coal. There was an attempt to sub Western and Columbia coal for Appalachian coal back in the 70s and there resulted in to comparison in cost. Plants East of Mississippi River found the quality of coal and difference in shipping cost(total cost) and the refuse from lower quality coal to make Appy coal a better buy for the plants steam coal. Met coal for steel is beyond question. Doubt that even Obama can make WV coal subordinate to Western coal.

Coal quality is an important consideration for electric companies as is price.
https://www.americanprogress.org/is...rces-are-challenging-appalachian-coal-mining/

 

[PWRLFT_EER]

You are really proving your inability to follow along. THEY ARENT COVERTING which is what you keep suggesting. Some might be, but not at the levels you are suggesting. They aren't building new coal power plants, they are building new NG power plants. The speculation which aids in driving the prices is due to reduced reliance on coal and the rising costs to mine coal.

They aren't building new coal plants because they can't get approval. Coal is costing so much to mine because of the change in regulations by the EPA.

It's frightening you take such a hard liner stance in support of the administration when you lack such a fundamental understanding of economics. It is an absolute fact that Obama declared war on coal. His weapon was the EPA.

Don't try to make excuses on this one.

DD I wouldn't put all of the blame on rising extraction costs at the EPA's door-step, or other government agencies like MSHA or OSMRE. They matter, of course, and those who would argue otherwise are misguided at best. However, simple geology is a big part of the steepening cost curve for U.S. coal basins, especially in Central Appalachia. Seams in Southern WV have been so heavily mined for decades that they are so thin and/or fragmented that mining companies can't generate the economies of scale to make extraction worthwhile unless market prices are extremely high.

 

[moe]

DD I wouldn't put all of the blame on rising extraction costs at the EPA's door-step, or other government agencies like MSHA or OSMRE. They matter, of course, and those who would argue otherwise are misguided at best. However, simple geology is a big part of the steepening cost curve for U.S. coal basins, especially in Central Appalachia. Seams in Southern WV have been so heavily mined for decades that they are so thin and/or fragmented that mining companies can't generate the economies of scale to make extraction worthwhile unless market prices are extremely high.

Very true.

 

[mneilmont]

Coal quality is an important consideration for electric companies as is price.
https://www.americanprogress.org/is...rces-are-challenging-appalachian-coal-mining/

Using your method of comparison, you would have to assume that all operations that consume coal are run by total idiots with a desire to spend money. But, the actuality is the Western coal, per ton FOB shipping point, has always been much cheaper than Appalachian Coal. May I suggest you do a little deeper research to see why consumers have always been willing to pay much higher price for Appy coal instead of the cheaper, per short ton, Western coal. A little research will definitely be enlightening to you.

 

[moe]

Using your method of comparison, you would have to assume that all operations that consume coal are run by total idiots with a desire to spend money. But, the actuality is the Western coal, per ton FOB shipping point, has always been much cheaper than Appalachian Coal. May I suggest you do a little deeper research to see why consumers have always been willing to pay much higher price for Appy coal instead of the cheaper, per short ton, Western coal. A little research will definitely be enlightening to you.

Using your method of comparison, you would have to assume that all operations that consume coal are run by total idiots with a desire to spend money. Posting tables and an article is not doing a comparison for you, the author provided that info. I don't know what you're talking about. Also I understand the differences between the regional coals, I work in the industry, maybe you do too, that's great.

 

[dave]

DD I wouldn't put all of the blame on rising extraction costs at the EPA's door-step, or other government agencies like MSHA or OSMRE. They matter, of course, and those who would argue otherwise are misguided at best. However, simple geology is a big part of the steepening cost curve for U.S. coal basins, especially in Central Appalachia. Seams in Southern WV have been so heavily mined for decades that they are so thin and/or fragmented that mining companies can't generate the economies of scale to make extraction worthwhile unless market prices are extremely high.

Plus in addition to this, getting a permit extended on a mine where there is something left is basically impossible. Coal companies mine what they can mine and when it becomes cost ineffective they close up or mothball.

 

[dave]

Coal quality is an important consideration for electric companies as is price.
https://www.americanprogress.org/is...rces-are-challenging-appalachian-coal-mining/

Western coal has larger seams that are more efficiently mined. Scrubbers on power plants are so good now that they don't need low sulpher coal for power generation which hurts coal operations in the southern coal fields.

 

[moe]

Western coal has larger seams that are more efficiently mined. Scrubbers on power plants are so good now that they don't need low sulpher coal for power generation which hurts coal operations in the southern coal fields.

Duh.

 

[dave]

Says the guy who thinks that coal plants just decided to start burning natural gas because it is cheaper.

If you need to learn anything else on the subject just ask. I guess teaching you is one of my God given burdens.

 

[moe]

Plus in addition to this, getting a permit extended on a mine where there is something left is basically impossible. .

Really? in what state? county? got a permit #?

 

[moe]

Says the guy who thinks that coal plants just decided to start burning natural gas because it is cheaper.

If you need to learn anything else on the subject just ask. I guess teaching you is one of my God given burdens.

lol I've read your posts, that won't be happening.

 

[dave]

Really? in what state? county? got a permit #?

You want a permit number for permits that were rejected? Cool story.

 

[dave]

lol I've read your posts, that won't be happening.

Im sure you can find an article somewhere to refute that too.

 

[moe]

You want a permit number for permits that were rejected? Cool story.

You could answer any or all of those questions. You're the one making the claim. Sure, give me a WV permit # where that has happened. I'd be curious to see what was the issue.

 

[moe]

Im sure you can find an article somewhere to refute that too.

You're like WVPATX, you don't like it when facts are posted.

 

[countryroads89]

Says the guy who thinks that coal plants just decided to start burning natural gas because it is cheaper.

If you need to learn anything else on the subject just ask. I guess teaching you is one of my God given burdens.

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA. Dave, you're precious!