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I have some ancestors that

EERs 3:16

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Oct 17, 2001
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fought for the South and others that fought for the North; according to the left I can only pay homage to those that fought for the North. How exactly does that work? And why am I to act is if one whole branch of my tree never existed? Or should I take the German approach and act as if everyone was on vacation....during those years.
 
fought for the South and others that fought for the North; according to the left I can only pay homage to those that fought for the North. How exactly does that work? And why am I to act is if one whole branch of my tree never existed? Or should I take the German approach and act as if everyone was on vacation....during those years.

Honor your ancestors if you like but take the German approach and disavow the Nazi flag.

ETA: If you're from SC here is a flag to honor your ancestors. It wasn't used specifically as a battle flag for the army that tried to break the country in two nor was it used as an explicit symbol of racism. You're honoring your ancestors if you use this flag. You're disgracing them if you use the Confederate flag.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flag_of_South_Carolina#/media/File:Fort_Moultrie_flag.svg
 
fought for the South and others that fought for the North; according to the left I can only pay homage to those that fought for the North. How exactly does that work? And why am I to act is if one whole branch of my tree never existed? Or should I take the German approach and act as if everyone was on vacation....during those years.
There are families in the South who wouldn't talk about ancestors who fought for the Union. My great-great-grandfather fought for the South and died in a Union prison camp. He chose ... poorly. But he's still my ancestor. You don't get to choose your relatives unless you're adopted.
 
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There are families in the South who wouldn't talk about ancestors who fought for the Union. My great-great-grandfather fought for the South and died in a Union prison camp. He chose ... poorly. But he's still my ancestor. You don't get to choose your relatives unless you're adopted.
Or Ben Affleck.
 
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fought for the South and others that fought for the North; according to the left I can only pay homage to those that fought for the North. How exactly does that work? And why am I to act is if one whole branch of my tree never existed? Or should I take the German approach and act as if everyone was on vacation....during those years.

If you want to honor a bunch of ignorant traitors fighting for the southern way of life (ie free labor via slavery), have at it. Having lived in the South for most of my life now, it continues to amuse me the way these folks think the south fought for a noble cause. They actually talked themselves into thinking that the Civil War was not about slavery. Idiotic.
 
If you want to honor a bunch of ignorant traitors fighting for the southern way of life (ie free labor via slavery), have at it. Having lived in the South for most of my life now, it continues to amuse me the way these folks think the south fought for a noble cause. They actually talked themselves into thinking that the Civil War was not about slavery. Idiotic.

What if I also have ancestors that fought for the British (who btw built their empire on slavery)? After all, those that fought for the revolution were also a bunch of traitors?

Also how does or should the north deal with their slavery issues?
 
What if I also have ancestors that fought for the British (who btw built their empire on slavery)? After all, those that fought for the revolution were also a bunch of traitors?

Also how does or should the north deal with their slavery issues?
Comparing the South to the Colonists? Really? Hilarious. Many Founders did have slaves. Certainly not a proud moment in our history. But it was corrected. And if your esteemed relatives had won, it wouldn't have been.
 
Honor your ancestors if you like but take the German approach and disavow the Nazi flag.

ETA: If you're from SC here is a flag to honor your ancestors. It wasn't used specifically as a battle flag for the army that tried to break the country in two nor was it used as an explicit symbol of racism. You're honoring your ancestors if you use this flag. You're disgracing them if you use the Confederate flag.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flag_of_South_Carolina#/media/File:Fort_Moultrie_flag.svg
They didn't disavow the NAZI flag. They created laws to not allow it. In our country that would be a violation of free speech and unconstitutional.
 
Comparing the South to the Colonists? Really? Hilarious. Many Founders did have slaves. Certainly not a proud moment in our history. But it was corrected. And if your esteemed relatives had won, it wouldn't have been.
How do you correct slavery?

And I had relatives the fought for the colonies as well, but, don't all our war dead deserve to be honored and remembered?
 
They didn't disavow the NAZI flag. They created laws to not allow it. In our country that would be a violation of free speech and unconstitutional.
And while we are at it can we stop comparing the condfederacy with the nazis? One was a rebellion stemming from an ugly time in our history. The other tried to kill off an entire race of people.
 
They didn't disavow the NAZI flag. They created laws to not allow it. In our country that would be a violation of free speech and unconstitutional.
It could have been done -- 150 years ago -- had Congress felt like it, and we could have had a string of trials and imprisonment or execution of the Southern leaders. But as full of the desire for vengeance as the Radical Republicans were, they mostly honored Lincoln's desire for reconciliation over retribution. What's going on now is just crazy stupid.
 
fought for the South and others that fought for the North; according to the left I can only pay homage to those that fought for the North. How exactly does that work? And why am I to act is if one whole branch of my tree never existed? Or should I take the German approach and act as if everyone was on vacation....during those years.

In the last few years, I found out that my great great grandfather was editor of the "Confederate Newspaper" and was friends and worked for Jefferson Davis . He wrote proslavery articles in pre civil war times. The articles made him wanted by the union army and he fled on horseback in the middle of the night from Taylor county to Crab Orchard and then on to Richmond. He returned home toward the end of the war and was arrested and placed in prison in Ohio. The Ohio governor was friends with him before the war and pardoned him. He taught school the rest of his life .Am I proud of him ? Of course. Do I support his views today ? Of course not. The Rebel flag has unfortunately became the redneck symbol for most of the bad feelings associated with the war.
 
In the last few years, I found out that my great great grandfather was editor of the "Confederate Newspaper" and was friends and worked for Jefferson Davis . He wrote proslavery articles in pre civil war times. The articles made him wanted by the union army and he fled on horseback in the middle of the night from Taylor county to Crab Orchard and then on to Richmond. He returned home toward the end of the war and was arrested and placed in prison in Ohio. The Ohio governor was friends with him before the war and pardoned him. He taught school the rest of his life .Am I proud of him ? Of course. Do I support his views today ? Of course not. The Rebel flag has unfortunately became the redneck symbol for most of the bad feelings associated with the war.
Im sure the flag means different things to different people. I know plenty of people who use it to represent racism but that isnt what it represents to everyone. A lot of southerners have southern pride and that represents their pride. End of the day it is just a flag and it means whatever you want it to mean. People who use it to scare or bully blacks are wrong. I am more worried about people than i am worried about a flag.
 
In the last few years, I found out that my great great grandfather was editor of the "Confederate Newspaper" and was friends and worked for Jefferson Davis . He wrote proslavery articles in pre civil war times. The articles made him wanted by the union army and he fled on horseback in the middle of the night from Taylor county to Crab Orchard and then on to Richmond. He returned home toward the end of the war and was arrested and placed in prison in Ohio. The Ohio governor was friends with him before the war and pardoned him. He taught school the rest of his life .Am I proud of him ? Of course. Do I support his views today ? Of course not. The Rebel flag has unfortunately became the redneck symbol for most of the bad feelings associated with the war.

You have the order of events backwards. The Rebel flag hasn't BECOME the symbol for bad feelings associated with the war, rather it BEGAN AS the symbol of bad feelings associated with the war. It was created specifically for the Civil War.

There has never been a time in its history that the Rebel flag wasn't a symbol of racial hatred, which would have pleased its creators because that's exactly why it was created. The fact that some people today don't view it was a symbol of racial hatred doesn't change the rest of the people nor the history.

About 50 years ago the state of South Carolina put up the Rebel flag to defy efforts by the Federal Government to force South Carolina to do such things like have people of different races use the same water fountains or attend the same schools.

That sounds crazy today but it ACTUALLY HAPPENED only 50 years ago and the Rebel flag was their rallying point. The fact that some people today like the Rebel flag but aren't virulent racists is the exception in history, not the rule.
 
You have the order of events backwards. The Rebel flag hasn't BECOME the symbol for bad feelings associated with the war, rather it BEGAN AS the symbol of bad feelings associated with the war. It was created specifically for the Civil War.

There has never been a time in its history that the Rebel flag wasn't a symbol of racial hatred, which would have pleased its creators because that's exactly why it was created. The fact that some people today don't view it was a symbol of racial hatred doesn't change the rest of the people nor the history.

About 50 years ago the state of South Carolina put up the Rebel flag to defy efforts by the Federal Government to force South Carolina to do such things like have people of different races use the same water fountains or attend the same schools.

That sounds crazy today but it ACTUALLY HAPPENED only 50 years ago and the Rebel flag was their rallying point. The fact that some people today like the Rebel flag but aren't virulent racists is the exception in history, not the rule.
Tell us more about shit that happened years before you were born captain internet.
 
You have the order of events backwards. The Rebel flag hasn't BECOME the symbol for bad feelings associated with the war, rather it BEGAN AS the symbol of bad feelings associated with the war. It was created specifically for the Civil War.

There has never been a time in its history that the Rebel flag wasn't a symbol of racial hatred, which would have pleased its creators because that's exactly why it was created. The fact that some people today don't view it was a symbol of racial hatred doesn't change the rest of the people nor the history.

About 50 years ago the state of South Carolina put up the Rebel flag to defy efforts by the Federal Government to force South Carolina to do such things like have people of different races use the same water fountains or attend the same schools.

That sounds crazy today but it ACTUALLY HAPPENED only 50 years ago and the Rebel flag was their rallying point. The fact that some people today like the Rebel flag but aren't virulent racists is the exception in history, not the rule.
Glad you are now acknowledging it can mean more than to someone than treason and racism.

What about the Gadsen flag? Pirate Flag/Jolly Rodger? Whole lot of bad shit happened with the latter. You guys and your symbols. Emotion truly does trump logic with most of you guys.
 
In the last few years, I found out that my great great grandfather was editor of the "Confederate Newspaper" and was friends and worked for Jefferson Davis . He wrote proslavery articles in pre civil war times. The articles made him wanted by the union army and he fled on horseback in the middle of the night from Taylor county to Crab Orchard and then on to Richmond. He returned home toward the end of the war and was arrested and placed in prison in Ohio. The Ohio governor was friends with him before the war and pardoned him. He taught school the rest of his life .Am I proud of him ? Of course. Do I support his views today ? Of course not. The Rebel flag has unfortunately became the redneck symbol for most of the bad feelings associated with the war.

Why are you proud of him? Maybe he did other things in his life for you to be proud of but I don't see anything in the paragraph you wrote. He helped the Confederacy try to split this country into two and also he was in favor of enslaving other people. And then when he was put in jail for it he used his political connections to get out. What exactly in that story is there to be proud about?

Oh, and he was a teacher too. Considering he was pro-slavery, what do you think he imparted as a teacher to the next generation on how black people should be thought of?

I understand that people are products of their times to a certain degree and that we should remember that when looking at their lives but that's one thing and saying you're proud is another.
 
Glad you are now acknowledging it can mean more than to someone than treason and racism.

What about the Gadsen flag? Pirate Flag/Jolly Rodger? Whole lot of bad shit happened with the latter. You guys and your symbols. Emotion truly does trump logic with most of you guys.

What the hell is the Gadsen flag? The Jolly Rodger? Really? You're comparing these things to the Rebel flag?

The Rebel flag came into existence 150 years ago for the sole purpose of rallying people that wanted to split the country into two and to promote the continuation of slavery. It was been viewed as a symbol of racism for 100% of its existence. It's just that for the first 100 or so 100% of people viewed it that way and then more recently less than 100% of people view it that way. Of course, even the people that don't view it as racist still know that others view it that way but just don't care.

I hear the "heritage" argument all the time. Does it occur to anyone other than me that there is never any substance behind that? Can someone tell me exactly what that means in the real world? It doesn't mean anything. It's just a word meant to ward off any objection.

There is no non-racist heritage beyond perhaps the last few decades. Yeah, someones granddaddy walked around with it and that makes it heritage but the reason the grandaddy used it was to signify what it was originally meant for. How many of your grandaddies walking around in the 1930s with the Rebel flag were non-racists? None of them. The world has changed, and for the better, but sometimes I think that makes people forget what the past was really like.
 
Why are you proud of him? Maybe he did other things in his life for you to be proud of but I don't see anything in the paragraph you wrote. He helped the Confederacy try to split this country into two and also he was in favor of enslaving other people. And then when he was put in jail for it he used his political connections to get out. What exactly in that story is there to be proud about?

Oh, and he was a teacher too. Considering he was pro-slavery, what do you think he imparted as a teacher to the next generation on how black people should be thought of?

I understand that people are products of their times to a certain degree and that we should remember that when looking at their lives but that's one thing and saying you're proud is another.


"pro-slavery," you're making some assumptions. Not everyone who fought for the south owned slaves.....or was pro slavery. You should really crack open a history book every now and again.
 
"pro-slavery," you're making some assumptions. Not everyone who fought for the south owned slaves.....or was pro slavery. You should really crack open a history book every now and again.

The other guy said that his ancestor wrote pro-slavery articles for the newspaper so that makes him pro-slavery. But you're pointing out that not everyone owned slaves brings to light just how much the non-slaveowners were being used. Why in the heck would people fight for the right of someone else to own a slave?

Then again, when an entire part of the country hates one group of people like the 19th century South did blacks it's not surprising that even people that didn't have the financial resources to own slaves would fight for the rights of others to own them.
 
The other guy said that his ancestor wrote pro-slavery articles for the newspaper so that makes him pro-slavery. But you're pointing out that not everyone owned slaves brings to light just how much the non-slaveowners were being used. Why in the heck would people fight for the right of someone else to own a slave?

Then again, when an entire part of the country hates one group of people like the 19th century South did blacks it's not surprising that even people that didn't have the financial resources to own slaves would fight for the rights of others to own them.
Again the world was a lot different then. Some funny talking foreigner knocks on your door, tell you how to live, what taxes to pay, &c, and does it at the point of a fun - you're bound to get.pissed and shoot back. History should be your friend not your enemy
 
Again the world was a lot different then. Some funny talking foreigner knocks on your door, tell you how to live, what taxes to pay, &c, and does it at the point of a fun - you're bound to get.pissed and shoot back. History should be your friend not your enemy
Opie seems to have his mind made up as to right and wrong, left and right, black and white. All things are absolute in his world.

A person who writes about Pro-slavery, makes him Pro-slavery. In other words anything a person writes about, makes them Pro-that particular subject. A person cannot study a subject and write about the findings without being Pro-that subject. People don't write about things just to expose them???

Quote, "not everyone owned slaves just points out how much the non-slave owners were used". That gives zero credibility to the possibility that the much larger number of non-slave owners were not influencing the smaller number of slave owners to join the fight for heritage and states rights. IMO, that is very biased and short sighted.

Quote, "when an entire(100% -my entry) part of the country hates...like the 19th century South hated the blacks. Actually some of the Southern whites of the 19th century had compassion for the blacks and aided some of them.

Should anyone speak in absolute terms just to stress their point when they know it is inaccurate?
 
Opie seems to have his mind made up as to right and wrong, left and right, black and white. All things are absolute in his world.

A person who writes about Pro-slavery, makes him Pro-slavery. In other words anything a person writes about, makes them Pro-that particular subject. A person cannot study a subject and write about the findings without being Pro-that subject. People don't write about things just to expose them???

Quote, "not everyone owned slaves just points out how much the non-slave owners were used". That gives zero credibility to the possibility that the much larger number of non-slave owners were not influencing the smaller number of slave owners to join the fight for heritage and states rights. IMO, that is very biased and short sighted.

Quote, "when an entire(100% -my entry) part of the country hates...like the 19th century South hated the blacks. Actually some of the Southern whites of the 19th century had compassion for the blacks and aided some of them.

Should anyone speak in absolute terms just to stress their point when they know it is inaccurate?

Who owned slaves and didn't own slaves doesn't matter. The simple fact of the matter is the war was fought over Western Expansion and how SLAVERY impacted that expansion. Without Slavery in existence, Western Expansion occurs without a thought and there are no State's Rights issues at play creating a war.
 
Opie seems to have his mind made up as to right and wrong, left and right, black and white. All things are absolute in his world.

A person who writes about Pro-slavery, makes him Pro-slavery. In other words anything a person writes about, makes them Pro-that particular subject. A person cannot study a subject and write about the findings without being Pro-that subject. People don't write about things just to expose them???

Quote, "not everyone owned slaves just points out how much the non-slave owners were used". That gives zero credibility to the possibility that the much larger number of non-slave owners were not influencing the smaller number of slave owners to join the fight for heritage and states rights. IMO, that is very biased and short sighted.

Quote, "when an entire(100% -my entry) part of the country hates...like the 19th century South hated the blacks. Actually some of the Southern whites of the 19th century had compassion for the blacks and aided some of them.

Should anyone speak in absolute terms just to stress their point when they know it is inaccurate?

Here is what Eerphone wrote about his GGG Grandfather

"He wrote proslavery articles in pre civil war times."

You and I and Eerphone are writing ABOUT pro-slavery articles when we talk about this issue, but we aren't actually writing the pro-slavery articles or advocating slavery. OTOH Eerphone's GGG Grandfather actually wrote pro-slavery articles and advocated slavery.

Don't get me wrong, I'm sure all of use have the worst (and the best) of humanity in our ancestry. Slavery has been around so long and has been so prevalent in history that I suspect all of us have ancestors that held slaves as well as all of us having ancestors that have actually been held as slaves. So I definitely don't mean to say that Eerphone's GGG Grandfather is some kind of outlier in human history. But remembering what our ancestors did is one thing and celebrating it is another.
 
Why are you proud of him? Maybe he did other things in his life for you to be proud of but I don't see anything in the paragraph you wrote. He helped the Confederacy try to split this country into two and also he was in favor of enslaving other people. And then when he was put in jail for it he used his political connections to get out. What exactly in that story is there to be proud about?

Oh, and he was a teacher too. Considering he was pro-slavery, what do you think he imparted as a teacher to the next generation on how black people should be thought of?

I understand that people are products of their times to a certain degree and that we should remember that when looking at their lives but that's one thing and saying you're proud is another.

I believe proud may have been a poor choice of words. I really don't know anything much about his inner self. I know that he , being an editor, probably stood up for what he thought was right. We all know that was wrong now . I don't know what he told students but his grandsons, my grandfather fought in World War I and my father fought in World War II. for 3 years. He was in the Battle of the Bulge among others. I never heard a racist remark, ever, from my dad or grandfather. Neither, ever said a bad word about the German's. In fact they respected that they fought hard and were just soldiers doing there duty, just like them. As a soldier you don't have to hate the people you are fighting, you do have to do your job.
My first grandfather came to this country settled in New York and fought in the Revolution. At the end of the war he was offered money or land. He took the land in Pa.., a large amount of land. He had five sons,one of those settled in Taylor county Wv. One of that lineage was Anna Jarvis who started Mothers Day.
A flag is just a symbol. We don't know what was in the hearts and minds of all those people.
 
Here is what Eerphone wrote about his GGG Grandfather

"He wrote proslavery articles in pre civil war times."

You and I and Eerphone are writing ABOUT pro-slavery articles when we talk about this issue, but we aren't actually writing the pro-slavery articles or advocating slavery. OTOH Eerphone's GGG Grandfather actually wrote pro-slavery articles and advocated slavery.

Don't get me wrong, I'm sure all of use have the worst (and the best) of humanity in our ancestry. Slavery has been around so long and has been so prevalent in history that I suspect all of us have ancestors that held slaves as well as all of us having ancestors that have actually been held as slaves. So I definitely don't mean to say that Eerphone's GGG Grandfather is some kind of outlier in human history. But remembering what our ancestors did is one thing and celebrating it is another.
Do you not see the difference in your statements? The original said he wrote about Pro-slavery. This time you added "and advocated slavery".

Your passage that you "suspect" everyone has relations who were slave owners and continued to say everyone has relations who were slaves.

I don't know that is based on some actual reason you have to suspect that, or you are just being the loose cannon. Some of my ancestors were really forced to come to America. The male worked a couple years to work his way out of bondage, and worked a few more years to pay for the woman's release prior to their marriage. Slavery was not restricted to blacks at the time. My lineage is very white, but ancestors were forced to come here and be treated as slaves. After a couple generations(or less), we were glad to be here. Were free and given the right to homestead and own property if they worked it. I am damned glad and thankful to be American.
 
[QUOTE="Op2, post: 181944, member: 5594" Duplicate
 
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Do you not see the difference in your statements? The original said he wrote about Pro-slavery. This time you added "and advocated slavery".

Your passage that you "suspect" everyone has relations who were slave owners and continued to say everyone has relations who were slaves.

I don't know that is based on some actual reason you have to suspect that, or you are just being the loose cannon. Some of my ancestors were really forced to come to America. The male worked a couple years to work his way out of bondage, and worked a few more years to pay for the woman's release prior to their marriage. Slavery was not restricted to blacks at the time. My lineage is very white, but ancestors were forced to come here and be treated as slaves. After a couple generations(or less), we were glad to be here. Were free and given the right to homestead and own property if they worked it. I am damned glad and thankful to be American.

Slavery has been around a long time in a bunch of places. The reason I say that probably everybody has ancestors that were slaves and slaveholders is just the law of averages.

The word "Slave" comes from "Slav" because at one time there were so many Slavic people that were slaves that they named the word after them. Slavery has existed all over the world. People in this country think of it US terms but it's way bigger than that, as things such as the Bible attest.

Almost certainly all of us have in our ancestry someone that murdered another human being. Think about that. It's both interesting and a bit creepy. By "ancestry" I don't mean a few generations but rather going back and back and back.
 
Well you can do what ya want, but I'm betting there isn't a confederate flag flying in front of your house or any stickers on your car.
 
Slavery has been around a long time in a bunch of places. The reason I say that probably everybody has ancestors that were slaves and slaveholders is just the law of averages.

The word "Slave" comes from "Slav" because at one time there were so many Slavic people that were slaves that they named the word after them. Slavery has existed all over the world. People in this country think of it US terms but it's way bigger than that, as things such as the Bible attest.

Almost certainly all of us have in our ancestry someone that murdered another human being. Think about that. It's both interesting and a bit creepy. By "ancestry" I don't mean a few generations but rather going back and back and back.
That is a very informative history lesson(unsolicited), but what does that have to do with the questions I offered in response to your post?
 
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